Messages

Thank You for this one DU .  I had turned everything inward from childhood until I was in my 40's. I have continued to live and feel the only way I ever knew how and it finally broke me.  I am still working on being angry about what my parents and stop turning it all on myself, feeling ashamed, and unloveable.  But I am learning about the events and ongoing abuse and neglect have had a negative impact and the unhealthy ways that I learned to cope and manage it to survive.
AryAnn

Hi Southbound!

Your definitions of each below and the examples to represent them are spot on.  I love the way you are able to present things with such clarity and make it entertaining!  A talent that I definitely do not have.  But Dutch Uncle is also able to make sense of things while presenting it in a light hearted way as well.

Southbound:

It's not like that, Dutch Uncle. Sympathy is to feel for; empathy is to feel with. You've empathized with a number of posts of mine here. All it means is someone who 'gets' it.  Example: you're sitting beside someone who's talking about her sad feelings, and she stops because she's choked up. An apath (one who doesn't care) would change the subject quickly ("Just look at that sunset!"); a sociopath (who likes hurting people) would call her a pussy; while an empath would just sit with her and wait for her to make the next move (eg. grabbing you for a hug in floods of tears) or say the next words... which could be pretty much anything.

Apath and sociopath responses shut you up, and how! An empathic response lets you feel your feelings without judgment.

As someone who has been around PD's all their life and has a FOO and In-Laws as well that are either Apaths, Narcissists, and Sociopaths, Empathy is the one thing that I think I came away from it all with.  I learned to be attuned to my family and start looking for the underlying causes, reasons they were the way they were, and try to relate to it for survival.  There are only 3 people that I was never able to figure out - My Father, His Sister, and my Uncle's Wife.  There is no indication of any trauma that they ever suffered.  The only thing I can figure is that they were spoon fed and treated so special by their parents that they came away feeling superior, truly entitled, and ability for empathy for anyone, only cared about themselves and their own selfish interests, agendas. 

I also like the description from Dutch Uncle:

Empathy involves feeling, sensing or thinking how another might experience, or has experienced, a certain event. But one always keeps an open eye, and/or mind, that something else, or something more, or something completely different is the case.

That is an excellent description.  An Empath is not a mind reader.  All you can do is try to really relate to a person based on your own past experiences and how you would feel if you were in their shoes.  Brene Brown is an resource to read about empathy versus sympathy.  I never really thought about it until I listened to one of her TED talks online, but sympathy really isn't a good thing.  Sympathy is really kind of a downer, it says that you feel sorry for someone but you don't really relate to what they are experiencing.  Where empathy says that you are listening and making the effort to understand and offer support to person.  Help them not feel alone and validation of the feelings they are experiencing.  It is much more comforting.  However, it is something that we are seeing less of from people as a result of social media.  The younger generation is not learning the same communication skills and are actually more isolated as result.  They find it hard to relate to other people face to face and do not really understand what empathy is.  I see it many times at work.  The younger ones are either very happy and empathetic or they are the other extreme and do not care about others and have no empathy.  It makes me sad because it feels like they are more robotic than an actual person.

Anyone that makes a regular habit of hurting you in the process of trying to seem empathetic is not an empathetic person at all.  It is a Narcissist or Histronic trying to present themselves in a different color, appear to be something they are not.  At the end of the day, they are lying to themselves and in the process of hurting others, in the end they are hurting themselves the most.  My parents have no friends, no life, do not even like each other.  They fight all the time and we truly fear that they will be on the 6 o'clock news sometime because one will kill the other.  I can't do that, I don't fight at all.  Because of them, I am anti everything they are.  I am starting to understand that and working to develop the true self I was meant to be.

I am also highly sensitive and hypervigilant.  I am very aware of it and I take things that are said, not said, or done in many cases much harder than I should.  I let these things hurt me and start obsessing about what is wrong with me (sorry, dutch uncle) and starting thinking I am the worst person in the world, nobody likes me, etc...  I have many people that I associate with work and probably would be supportive but I have too much fear of trusting anyone with what I am going through and risking anyone finding out and how the majority would treat me as a result.

This is a great thread!  Reading through it has helped me feel better today!

MaryAnn     

Quote Trace:

My back muscles are rock hard and you can feel the knots in the muscle

Everyday, this is one I deal with.  I do not know how to relax and my husband has told me many times that I was extremely tight in the neck and shoulders and that he could feel the knots in my back.  I guess I just got used to it because I have never been able to be really relaxed since about age 8 and it only got worse the older I got.  I was so tensed up a while back, I was about to jump out of my skin.  My husband gave me a very hard aggressive massage of the shoulders and back to release the tension, it felt great.  Until the next morning....  Thought I was having a heart attack only to find out it was something called  Costochondritis which is related to symptoms of constant stress and anxiety.  The pain in my chest seemed like it was getting better, but now it is flaring up again and is sore on the breastbone to the touch or to breath.

I also experience numbness, tingling, and lightheadness.  Headaches, Anxiety and Panic Attacks (daily - is constant), and joint pain in the knees and arms.  I have suffered from stomach issues all of my life, since I arrived on earth.  I have had diagnosis of IBS but the last gastroenterologist I saw told me that IBS is what a doctor tells you when they can't figure out what your symptoms are a result of. Mine stomach issues were a result of being stressed and hypervigilant as a child.  I had to take a medication called Modine (no longer available for a few decades) and it was found later that it actually killed nerve endings in you intestines.  So over time, it actually caused more problems.  The doc told me that I needed to start exercising to help movement and to help me relax.  This was several years ago.  It worked for awhile but as a workaholic, I finally became so consumed with work that I was doing neither. I  experience all of the things that no one wants to hear about on a regular basis.  It is embarrassing and I deal with it the best I can. 

That is the extent of any physical symptoms I experience as a result of the CPTSD.  I too, now realize that I am not alone.  Thank you listening and for sharing your own experiences.  It is not fair that we have to go thru this things but I guess if we try to look at the positive side of things (which is really hard to do most of the time), our struggles make us stronger people in the end. 

MaryAnn 

I have been taking Setraline (Zoloft) for about a year and half.  Started at 50mg and now am at the max dose of 200mg.  It helped my depression but I struggled with concentration and focusing.  It was nerve racking because I would just freeze and found it difficult to do my work.  Took Xanax for awhile at night.  It really didn't help so stopped taking it but I think all of these medications react differently depending on the person.   I am now taking Wellbutrin, it is an SSRI like Setraline but it is the only one that works with dopamine as well and helps with concentration and focusing.  It has taken a couple of weeks but it is starting to kick in.  I have gotten more work done than I have been able to in quite some time.  And at night, I am now taking Trazodone.  This is working much better than the Xanax.  I have been able to sleep 5 to 6 hours a night straight thru and have not had any nightmares or EF's in about 2 weeks.  Much better than 2 or 3 hours at a stretch and waking up in sweat scared to death or screaming.   Hope this helps....

MaryAnn

Awesome song choice Southbound.  I haven't listened to Alan Parsons Project in ages.  Forgot how good he was.  I am going to have to get this CD and relive some memories.....

Dutch Uncle,  Hope you are having a great birthday.  From the responses by everyone on the forum,  you should be feeling really special right now and loved!

Your both the best!
MaryAnn

Thank you Woodsgnome.  I am a book worm and this one does sound more up my alley.  Down to earth and keeps it to the basics.  I will check it out on Amazon and maybe start with this one first and get one by Foster or Neff as well and go from there.  Thank you for sharing.  We learned more about mindfulness and positive thinking in group therapy today.  I am really hoping that guided meditations and the art of mindfulness will help me rid myself of the constant anxiety.  I want to feel better, but the constant anxiety is never ending and I can't seem to get a handle on it.  I feel better in other ways and have my focus back but the anxiety is exhausting.  Today I just want to cry....

Thank you for sharing!
MaryAnn

Awesome Dutch Uncle!  The pic is so cute....  I bet you were the teacher's favorite!

Happy Birthday to you!    Hope you have a great party!  

I have a birthday song for you from Stevie Wonder followed by Kool & the Gang......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qwscb3QIVSg
and
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rw1P7gdtAeY

Happy Birthday

By Stevie Wonder

You know it doesn't make much sense
There ought to be a law against
Anyone who takes offense
At a day in your celebration
'Cause we all know in our minds
That there ought to be a time
That we can set aside
To show just how much we love you
And I'm sure you would agree
It couldn't fit more perfectly
Than to have a world party on the day you came to be
Happy birthday to you
Happy birthday to you
Happy birthday
Happy birthday to you
Happy birthday to you
Happy birthday
I just never understood
How a man who died for good
Could not have a day that would
Be set aside for his recognition
Because it should never be
Just because some cannot see
The dream as clear as he
That they should make it become an illusion
And we all know everything
That he stood for time will bring
For in peace our hearts will sing
Thanks to Martin Luther King
Happy birthday to you
Happy birthday to you
Happy birthday
Happy birthday to you
Happy birthday to you
Happy birthday
Why has there never been a holiday
Where peace is celebrated
All throughout the world
The time is overdue
For people like me and you
Who know the way to truth
Is love and unity to all God's children
It should never be a great event
And the whole day should be spent
In full remembrance
Of those who lived and died for the oneness of all people
So let us all begin
We know that love can win
Let it out don't hold it in
Sing it loud as you can
Happy birthday to you
Happy birthday to you
Happy birthday
Happy birthday to you
Happy birthday to you
Happy birthday
Happy birthday to you
Happy birthday to you
Happy birthday
Happy birthday to you
Happy birthday to you
Happy birthday
Happy birthday
Happy birthday
Happy birthday
Ooh yeah
Happy birthday
We know the key to unify all people
Is in the dream that you had so long ago
That lives in all of the hearts of people
That believe in unity
We'll make the dream become a reality
I know we will
Because our hearts tell us so


Celebration

By Kool & the Gang

Yahoo! This is your celebration
Yahoo! This is your celebration

Celebrate good times, come on! (Let's celebrate)
Celebrate good times, come on! (Let's celebrate)

There's a party goin' on right here
A celebration to last throughout the years
So bring your good times, and your laughter too
We gonna celebrate your party with you

Come on now

Celebration
Let's all celebrate and have a good time
Celebration
We gonna celebrate and have a good time

It's time to come together
It's up to you, what's your pleasure
Everyone around the world
Come on!

Yahoo! It's a celebration
Yahoo!

Celebrate good times, come on!
It's a celebration
Celebrate good times, come on!
Let's celebrate

We're gonna have a good time tonight
Let's celebrate, it's all right
We're gonna have a good time tonight
Let's celebrate, it's all right, baby

We're gonna have a good time tonight (Ce-le-bra-tion)
Let's celebrate, it's all right
We're gonna have a good time tonight (Ce-le-bra-tion)
Let's celebrate, it's all right

Yahoo!
Yahoo!

Celebrate good times, come on! (Let's celebrate)
Celebrate good times, come on!
It's a celebration!
Celebrate good times, come on! (Let's celebrate)

Come on and celebrate, tonight
(Celebrate good times, come on!)
'Cause everything's gonna be all right
Let's celebrate (Celebrate good times, come on)
(Let's celebrate)
(Celebrate good times, come on!)
Celebration

You are the best Dutch Uncle!  Thank you for all the support and for being here!

Lol, MaryAnn 

Thanks for the heads up stillhere.  I could see my hypervigilant tendencies taking over and doing something just like marathon meditation but it makes sense that it is probably not a good idea.  Appreciate the warning as well.  I will take it slow and work with the T to help me with it.
 
Hi Woodsgnome,

I checked out the link you gave.  Jeff Foster seems more down to earth.  I will be looking up more from him on youtube.  Thank you for telling us about his books.  I will be ordering them from Amazon as well as one from Kristen Neff. 

Thank you both for the recommendations and support!
MaryAnn

Awesome  !  Thank you for the info.  I will definitely check these sites out.  I have only really become aware of mindfulness through group therapy and we did one exercise.  I definitely could see the value in it, but many others in the group did not share that same opinion.  They were more resistant to it.   But after dealing with severe anxiety and panic attacks for over a year, I am open to trying just about anything that will give me some relief and help me manage it  .

I will look for guided meditations online as well so that I can expand on the basics that I learned in group recently as well ask talking to my T about teaching me mindfulness meditations as well.

Thank you, thank you, thank you....
MaryAnn 

Thank you stillhere.  I have read Pete Walker's books.  Both books were helpful with some topics, especially the validation of what we have been through and how it effects us. 

....and I'm still amazed at the clarity and congruence with my experience.

I agree completely.

I also agree with your other observation but I am struggling to accept it as true.

One obstacle for me was recognizing that is really is chronic condition that can be addressed but never really cured.

I have an issue with this part of Pete Walkers book.  I want a cure. I do not want to accept that it is a chronic condition that I will have to deal with the rest of my life.  When I read this I felt that there was no hope, that I will work to make strides to feel better, feel whole, only to relapse.  I might not relapse all the way back or maybe I will, and have to start over again to find happiness. 

I recently read Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl.  It is a tough one to read.  It deals with how he survived in the concentration camps of the Holocaust.  But, it definitely gave new meaning for me to the meaning of hope and being grateful.  I am currently reading Treatment of Complex Trauma by Christine Courtois and Julian Ford.  It is definitely written more for the therapist not for the client so far but the concepts or treatment have been helpful.

Let me know about van der Kolk's book and if it is helpful. Sometimes he seems kind of cold, not as compassionate as some of the others like John Briere or Jonice Webb.  I will do the same with any new books I read and my experiences in the path to move forward.

Lol, MaryAnn 

Hi Woodsgnome 

I was reading this thread today to seek others advice and experience with this topic.  Thank you for sharing your experience below:

I'd been reading about self-acceptance before and I wondered what else could I really do anymore. Slowly I started accepting myself in a better frame, starting with the hyper-vigilance. The trick is getting past the constant skepticism of not trusting my own instincts that this was making sense. That's disappointing, sensing a new way but the old pattern resists loosening its grip on one's psyche/soul. One step forward, two back, but I'll take the one step any way I can. I think the acceptance may be a part of that route through the rapids I talked about in the previous post.

This is so validating for me, that my experience at the moment does signify that I am making progress.  I am hyper-vigilant, do not trust my instincts, and the old pattern of thinking is not letting go.  It feels like a fight in my head and it is exhausting.  But I am sensing a new way, I am just hoping it starts to take over the old at some point.  And, like your perspective on the steps forwards and backwards.  I do the same, one step forward, but I catastrophize when I go backwards.  It feels like more than 2, like 5 or 10, so I beat myself up because I think I am not getting anywhere.  My T told me last visit that I was getting better and that others could see the change even if I could not.  But I know that in order for me to make real progress, learning self-acceptance is essential or I really will get nowhere.  Any progress I make will be shaky and eventually I will relapse. 

My T also practices mindfulness, I will ask him if the link beyond hypervigilance could be mindfulness.  Also, if it is something that I could start working on know or if I should wait until I have worked through this current stage.

I am glad you are here Woodsgnome, you are a wealth of information and insight.  You bring a fresh perspective to so many at OOTS!

MaryAnn

Cats & Dogs....  Volunteering at the no kill animal shelter has been the most calming and therapeutic experience.  Love is unconditional with them.  The anxiety goes away for just awhile, it feels like nothing can hurt me while I am there. 

MaryAnn

I have been reading today trying to find anything I can about overcoming developmental trauma.  I found articles by Briere, Courtois, Linehan, and van der Kolk as well as reading many chapters of the books I have by the same.  They provide a lot of data, research, and technicals about the brain, how it works, but I am yet to find out how to truly overcome it other than therapy that is done with kid gloves.  My T is helping and is doing this but it is a long, slow process.  So patience is getting the better of me, I want to so badly just forget it all but I know that will not be the fix that makes me happy long term.  Love Ellen and I was looking for some funny and uplifting sayings from her to make me laugh and ran across this, going to make this my mantra:

Find out who you are and be that person. That's what your soul was put on this Earth to be. Find that truth, live that truth and everything else will come.

Ellen DeGeneres

MaryAnn

I like it too!

HI Arpy1

I share the same challenges as you stated below:

it's all to do with how i have been trained.i.e. i have no rights. to have rights is sinful. if there is a problem in a relationship it is my fault. to look at another's fault is to be self righteous. 'first take the log out of your own eye'. i have no right to stand up for myself becos i should be like jesus and be meek and humble and turn the other cheek. i must be in submission to those over me. 

I completely relate to this.  I was raised from the time I can remember (probably before) to have this belief as well.  I was expected to be totally submissive and to do anything and everything to make others happy.  My happiness did not matter, it was selfish.  It was my job to serve my parents, my husband, my bosses and never show or express my own emotions.  I am trying to learn to think differently but I can't seem to get it out of my head.  It has been a rough couple of months because I so desperately need to be able to express anger, be mad at anyone but myself.  But I have not been able to do it, I just curl up at home when I am alone and cry because I just come back around to blaming myself  .

I agree with what everyone has replied.  You do not owe your current T anything.  Simply leave a message that you are canceling your next appointment.  If this is what you want to do and can be comfortable with.  However, if you feel like you need to express yourself and tell her why, then by all means you should so that you can have closure and feel good about it moving forward.  And you can do it in a email if you do not want to do it face to face. You can be proud of yourself for standing up to advocate for yourself and for being assertive.  If she is any type of therapist at all, she will listen to your constructive criticism and try to learn from it, not come back at you trying to defend herself.  She should see it as progress, be able to respect your boundaries, and also see that you are setting your own boundaries. 

I struggled with my first T because after a little over a year, he would challenge me, push me too far and I would leave triggered, worse off than when I came in many times.  I did sent him an email explaining I was changing therapists and why.  It devastated me because I didn't want anyone to be upset with me and feared like you that he would try to defend his actions.  He did not.  He emailed and said that he understood and validated that I had done a good thing, was advocating for myself and making decisions.  Eventually I learned that while the second T was nice, she was too validating and did not challenge me.  I returned to the first T and talked to him directly.  He was completely supportive and accepted his part of the responsibility.  He is really trying and it seems we both have learned from the experience.  Making much more progress the second time around.  It is what has helped me to build trust with him, that he does take his profession seriously. Hope this helps!

MaryAnn