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Thank you Indigo, this video was helpful for me as well  .  I can relate to Arpy1, alcohol is my weakness and recovery has not been perfect.  I fall back into this bad habit very easily.  I have one or two to calm the anxiety and to numb myself.  Then, I stop myself from drinking more because I know I shouldn't.  It does the same for me. I don't beat myself up as much, almost give myself a pat on the back for stopping.  I know that I shouldn't drink at all but for the time being it is progress.

MaryAnn 

Thanks KayFly for posting this advice from SpartanLifeCoach.  Indeed, it is unfortunate, but many of us cannot go NC with our families because of other siblings, taking care of members in the family, etc...  LC has been my approach for years with dad and it works just fine for me.  He doesn't like me or approve of how I live my life (which is simply because I do not go to church) and blames me for corrupting my mom, basically helping her to start thinking on her own and having opinions. 

But SLC is right, his analogy to a snake holder is excellent .  I tread lightly and use a lot of yes and Umm's when I am at my parents home.  Try to say as little as possible around him (and my brother).  It is only f.or Holidays (the big ones - Thanksgiving, Xmas, Easter, and Mother's/Father's Day) and Birthdays, maybe 10 times a year (and they only live like 10 minutes across town).  It is just easier to endure these few occasions to avoid family drama and arguments.  He drops comments and opinions in there to illicit a reaction.  I learned his game a long time ago and stopped giving him any reaction at all.  I will just change the subject or say something that really doesn't tell him anything at all.  Once we have had dessert, he is very quick to kick us out the door because he really does not want us there in the first place.  The man changed the locks on the doors to the house the day after I got married.  He made it very clear that I was not welcome to return home and that it was no longer home to me (not that I ever really felt like it was home in the first place).

Thanks again, KayFly.  Your post is very validating for me, that I am doing some of the right things in the interest of self-care.

MaryAnn 

LadyFinn, you are not alone.  I am truly sorry that those you loved have hurt you in the worst way imaginable and that you have suffered so much trauma and emotional abuse as a result.  I have narcissistic parents as well.  My dad is the malignant one and my mother is covert. 

My mother is still a child in a way so I feel some responsibility to help her because I truly do not think she realizes what she does is childish or wrong.  But, I know that I cannot trust her and not to confide in her in hopes of support in terms of my marriage or general mental health.  She would react in much the same way as you described but would use religion to defend her response.  Marriage is "for better or worse" and he is the one you chose so I have a responsibility to make it work  .  Leaving is not an option.  She pampers those who tell her information, manipulates them.  She brings my husband home cooked meals and buys him snack cakes all the time, uses food to get him on her side.  My husband is a master manipulator as well so he just plays her game.  He must not be playing anymore because it appears he has been cut off and he really does not need to manipulate her to get anything at the moment.  She has not called or brought anything by for him in several weeks. 

My situation is similar but different to yours and Shattered.  My husband is cheating on me but he uses porn and chooses not to have intimate relations with me because I don't look like a Barbie doll anymore, I don't wear a size 4 anymore after 20 years, I wear a 10 so I am too fat for him to be attracted to me.  Yes, that is how he put it to me  . I have foolishly believed him that to men, sex is all about the physical appearance of a woman and any that tells me different is a liar. Men don't care about what's on the inside or a woman's personality, the only thing that turns them on is looks. So every man "cheats" in his mind because even when they are really having sex with their wives, they are thinking about someone else that they find sexy and beautiful.

There were several other stressors that got me to my breaking point.  I can't imagine going through what you and Shattered have experienced.  It would be devastating and would send my whole world crumbling down.  No one should be blaming you for anything.  They should be offering support and understanding, provide comfort and help you feel safe.  LadyFinn and I will both be here as well as many others to support you and share empathy and understanding.  The circumstances are unfortunate, but it is very nice to meet you and glad you found us.

MaryAnn

[I am the rescuer... who desperately dreams of being rescued.]

Hi Phoenix 

Your poetic prose is beautiful.  You said so much in so few words.  Many here do understand and will be here to support you.

You said,

I am the rescuer...  who desperately dreams of being rescued.

I almost ran out of air as well.  I had always been the strong one, the one that could and was expected to fix everything for anyone in my family and my husband as well.  I am a workaholic and I am that same person there as well.  I could not go to anyone in my family, there would have been no support.  I did tell my husband, but he is too self involved and I have to support him for how it effects him.  Pretty messed up.  I was the one that landed in the hospital but I had to "pull myself up by the bootstraps" and console and calm him down.

In my experience, I have had the most luck reaching out to strangers whether it is their profession or they have experienced similar abuse and traumas.  I did my homework on Therapists online and selected 3 that had the personality and approach to counseling that I would feel most comfortable with.  I do not do real well as far as trusting others so fortunately, the first one I called never called back to make an appt.  The second one did call and he was the right one.  But, it took me almost 2 years to completely trust him.  I am a manager at work and fortunately my manager has also been someone that I have been able to overcome trust issues with and is supportive.  So, other than my T, my boss, my husband, the only other people that are aware of my vulnerabilities and that I am not as strong as I appear are the people here at OOTS.  I, too, hope you find this group to be supportive during your journey.  Support is important.  If there is just one person in your life that you are confident that you can trust and will understand, reaching out to that one person is the first step....

MaryAnn

HI Southbound,

I will check out Karyl McBride.  I like the example you gave putting this idea to work for yourself  .  I do struggle to fill the void on my own so I am excited to learn on how to do it for myself.  You write the most awesome posts, you have such a fun way a presenting things so it doesn't seem as bad as it really is  .  Thank you for the info and look forward to sharing experiences in the future.

Mary Ann 

Hi Dutch Uncle & Woodsgnome 

Woodsgnome,  I agree with DU.  The abuse you suffered as kid from you M and Sis is "hideously sadistic" and you deserved better.  I can't imagine that type of abuse from a M and Sister  .  I can understand why you would not be able to extend any K to her and no one would blame you.  I have a younger brother that is following in his dad's footsteps and later in life has decided on the Narcissistic path and thinks he is better than everyone else.  I do not fall for his manipulation nor do I care what my FOO thinks of me anymore.  As a result, no one calls anymore because they know that I will not relay information to other family member's to assist them in their agenda's or let them use me.   

Like DU, I have minimal contact with my D and B simply because of my mom.  She is only in her late 60's so I will have to try to not make too many waves so that when the time comes, I can work with them through it and then NC will happen.  I will have no reason to remain in contact.  Family does not make me feel warm and fuzzy  .  For people that had loving families, they do not seem able to really relate, do they?  It is like they look at you and think that you are exaggerating how your FOO is and that it could have never been that bad. 

DU - Exactly.  That is the message I intended.  I do not kill them with kindness to be nice to them, it is for myself and self care .  Using a positive against a negative.   And a Narcissist and / or a manipulator do not see it as kindness towards them, believe me, they are .  I have lived it.  It was tough sometimes not to stoop down as low as they would.  Nothing aggravates a manipulator more than not being able to get a reaction out of your or manipulate you to get the desired results.  And, in their frustration, they will eventually show their true colors.  But, taking the high ground, staying positive and use appropriate manners, it allows us to still feel good about ourselves.  We didn't use a negative to respond to a negative.  It isn't like math, 2 negatives do not make a positive in terms of how we think and feel. That does not mean that we said anything "Kind" to them to validate them or make them feel good.  It just means we kept it professional, used manners, politeness and gave them no reaction to their selfishness, abuse or hatred.  I know that may be difficult for some but just like the article you posted, it really does work or at least it did for me.  Many times, when they say ugly things, judge, or attack me, I simply play stupid.  I do not give them any reaction at all.  I play the part of Miss Woosh and just let them think I didn't catch what they said.  I mean, really, who are they anyway?  They live in their own little world and their messages of hate and disapproval just really do not matter. Nobody is listening to them anyway.

MaryAnn    

I am extremely hypervigilant this evening and can't go to sleep after reading Shattered and LadyFinn's story's.  I have so much running through my head right now.  I am struggling to make a decision about what I want, who I want to be, and try to break free of the of the hold my husband has on me.  I am a fool for him and no matter what he does (or doesn't do), I am hopelessly in love with him even though I know the only person he really loves is himself. 

I want to so desperately to believe he can change like he says he can and that I will have the soul mate that I always dreamed of.  The Cranberries came to mind, I love her voice.  Linger is one of my favorites.  I do take my vows very seriously and believe in "for better, or worse, richer or poorer" and believe I should stay true to the one I committed too.  But, when is enough enough?  When do you finally hit a point where you can decide to leave him and live with yourself, not feel terrible in the inside and guilty for leaving him alone?  He does have me wrapped around his finger and he is very aware of it.  He tells me that all of the time.  He knows I can't resist his All American boy looks, his cute dimples, and his smile no matter what else he does or says to me.  I am a fool and I punish myself everyday as a result.   I have included the lyrics and a link to the video below)

P.S.  Linger in my situation refers to his obsession with porn.  I have at times suspected he was cheating or at least crosses a line.  He has a lot of friends that are women and talks to them like you would think he was talking with a wife.  He will from time to time try to sweet talk me with some of his favorite pet names but he never calls me Precious or Hey, beautiful.  I am his financial support and like a security blanket for him.  I have tried to talk to him about it but he will not let me in and just keeps telling me what I want to hear so I will not leave. He knows I have much more too lose if I do.  If he loved me in the way 2 people should he would be honest with me and willing to set me free so I can find true happiness and end the suffering waiting for a type of love that he will never be able to give.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6Kspj3OO0s

Linger - The Cranberries

If you, if you could return
Don't let it burn
Don't let it fade
I'm sure I'm not being rude
But it's just your attitude
It's tearing me apart
It's ruining every day
For me
I swore I would be true
And honey, so did you
So why were you holding her hand?
Is that the way we stand?
Were you lying all the time?
Was it just a game to you?
But I'm in so deep
You know I'm such a fool for you
You've got me wrapped around your finger
Do you have to let it linger?
Do you have to, do you have to, do have to let it linger?

Oh, I thought the world of you
I thought nothing could go wrong
But I was wrong, I was wrong
If you, if you could get by
Trying not to lie
Things wouldn't be so confused
And I wouldn't feel so used
But you always really knew
I just want to be with you
And I'm in so deep
You know I'm such a fool for you
You've got me wrapped around your finger
Do you have to let it linger?
Do you have to, do you have to, do have to let it linger?

And I'm in so deep
You know I'm such a fool for you
You've got me wrapped around your finger
Do you have to let it linger?
Do you have to, do you have to, do have to let it linger?

You know I'm such a fool for you
You've got me wrapped around your finger
Do you have to let it linger?
Do you have to, do you have to, do have to let it linger?

Songwriters
O'RIORDAN, DOLORES MARY / HOGAN, NOEL

Thank you Shattered for your kind words of support and empathy. 

And, I am going to look up Minwalla's Thirteen Dimensions of Sex Addiction-Induced Trauma and definitely read it.  Thank you telling us about it. I have yet to really find anything that is written on the subject that has really helped me so I welcome this bit of info and look forwarding to reading it.

I know exactly what you are feeling, experiencing  .   Fortunately I have a T that I can call and he will call me regardless of the time and help ground me.  The last time was really bad and while I was really mad at him at first for landing me in IP, I am grateful now.  It was the best thing for me.  I am gaining traction, but I still do not have much confidence that I will not relapse.  And, I am still with my husband trying to get strong enough to try to deal with our issues again and hope that I can work through it without a relapse.  It is hard to find others that can understand.  I can see it in group therapy.  They do not understand why you would endure it for so long and why you just don't leave.  But, it just is not that easy for us.  When you think you were going to be married forever and that person was your soul mate, it really does "shatter you" and like all hope is lost.  I don't trust him and feel betrayed but all at the same time I want to help him, do not want to hurt him. 

Glad to hear you now have a T that gets it. You are not alone, we are not crazy, and we will get through this.

MaryAnn 

Wow, those both take me back Dutch Uncle.

The Blues Brothers... great soundtrack and R.I.P John Belushi.  I still miss him and one of my favorite movies.

Once in a Lifetime is one of my favorite tunes  .... I would put it in my top 20 of most influential songs ever.  It is an iconic song for the 80's generation.   Your taste in music is so eclectic, I love that.

Without music, life would lose all meaning for me...  it is important to humanity in my opinion and everyone's general well-being.

Thank you DU for starting this thread, it is definitely my favorite here at OOTS!

Hugs & Kisses, MaryAnn

P.S. Keep the tunes comin'.   

Hi Southbound,

Like the new avatar!  Can relate to so much that you have written in your posts.  Glad you are here.

The most empowering thing I can offer to FOO scapegoats is that you don't need anyone's love but your own.

[/b]

I am trying but I have not figured out how to do that yet.  I have anxiety constantly and only recently learned that what I was experiencing throughout the day were actually panic attacks.  I thought it was severe anxiety and it exhausts me, feels debilitating.  In OP therapy, I discovered that I am cycling from anxiety to panic attacks throughout the day.  At work, it is at least 4 to 5 times and then when I  get home, it is worse and I drink in order to numb myself and go to sleep hoping that I will not wake up because I do not want to go through it another day. 

I have the same addiction except the cigs.  Not that I wouldn't like to smoke cigs, I have been dreaming of menthols for months.  But, I know if I start, I will be addicted to those as well because of how good it will feel.  Alcohol, Coffee, and Chocolate in that order.  Then Mexican and Margaritas.... I stay away from the crunchy stuff because I could eat a whole bag.  I can cook, or at least I used to be able too.  I have not really cooked a meal in years other than preparing Thanksgiving and Xmas dinners to take to the in-laws so we actually have something good to eat.  I get home too late and I am too exhausted all of the time to prepare meals through the week.

Good luck on shedding the addictions.  If you can shed the one to coffee, please let me know how you did it!  And, well, I see no reason to shed the addiction to chocolate  ! What is life without chocolate. 

Like you, I have decided I want to live  .... Sometimes my brain does not cooperate and it is a struggle but I am working to fix that.   Got to quit the drinking and keep working on self-growth, self-worth, and developing a sense of self, who I really am.

MaryAnn

You are a strong person Shattered, please do not lose hope.  You were resilient for most of your life and you will be again.  It is a difficult journey, I know from experience.  But it will get better once you start finding yourself and loving yourself again.  I am still working on that part but I am getting better each day and have reached out to others for support like I never have before.  I have made myself vulnerable and have stumbled and fallen several times but I get back up and try again.   After reading LadyFinn and your posts, I realize that I am not alone as well.

I feel exactly the same way about my husband of 24 years as you stated in your post to LadyFinn:

The human being I attached to and believed to be my lifelong soulmate turns out to be my tormentor and perpetrator.

I am in my mid 40's, my husband is a sex addict (porn - at least I hope that is all it is).  Sex is a very rare occurrence and it has been that way for most of 20 years.  And I have to initiate it, he never does.  I was having ideations in my late thirties as a result of my marriage.  I finally realized, just as you did, that he was not the man I thought he was. Like you, I also experienced many traumas as a child, emotional, physical, and sexual, but none of them ever effected me like what I have been going through the last 24 months.  At times, in the aftermath of a couple of events, I did want to end my life, attempted once in college, but I was able to work through them on my own and get back on track. I never saw a Therapist, a Psychiatrist, took any medications until 2 years ago.

But life has it's events and a major family crisis diverted my attention completely from my marriage and the ideations, urges.  I am a workaholic and am an overachiever in my work.  Work has always been my safe place, what I feel is home.  The family crisis required me to basically fix, straighten out, and run my GP's businesses.  I worked for 6 years almost 24/7 to support us (husband is self-employed - really a hobbyist - working on building custom cars and doesn't make money, or at least not any I ever see) and to run my GP's businesses to provide for my GM and an Uncle with BPD and an alcoholic.  It almost killed me and in more ways than one. 

My husband became even more abusive than ever over the 6 years.  It was scary at times and got very ugly but not going to go into any details.  I started counseling as a result of my husband's abuse and the porn addiction.  Six months later, I was successful in selling my GM's major commercial properties and closing down the businesses, invested everything.  Then it happened, I snapped.  But, keep in mind, I have to have my job as it is our only means of income and health insurance.  My T is the reason I am still here today to talk about it.  I had ideation and urges, I actually had made plans to do it.  I had a trust written up - left nothing to my family - and was working to make arrangements to sell all of my antiques and collections so that they would find good homes and not end up in the hands of someone that did not understand their value or appreciate them. 

I kept working, hanging on by a thread and still living with my husband.  We went to marriage counseling, briefly.  He went to individual counseling, briefly, just long enough for us to find out he was ADHD.  Wouldn't take meds and stopped going to counseling.  Medication helped me for just over a year.  Then just a little over a month ago, I crashed.  I couldn't take it anymore.  I ended up in an In Patient facility for 4 days and am now in an intensive OP therapy program.  I have a good T, a good psychiatrist, a nice group in OP,  a friend at work, and hopefully a few friends here that are my support because god knows that my husband and family are definitely not.  I am glad you are here, as well as LadyFinn.  Hopefully, we will all get through this together with each others understanding and support.

  MaryAnn 

"Be patient with yourself. Self-growth is tender; it's holy ground. There's no greater investment."–Stephen Covey

Stephen Covey is one of my favorite authors.  It is a challenge to remain patient with myself.  Self-growth can be a positive, fun experience at times. But when you are trying to change thought patterns and negative beliefs that have been ingrained since you were a small child, it is also very painful and can be very tempting to give up.

MaryAnn

Dutch, that is an awesome read!

Trying to reason with an unreasonable family member is like plumbing; once you attempt to fix it yourself, you've got a turd sliding across the tile and you soon find yourself knee-deep in crap wondering how you got here.

[/b]

That is so true.  I totally relate to this one.    I am so PROUD of myself....  I actually learned all of this on my own in life and it is exactly what I have done with my crazy family.  Kill'em with kindness, stay at a distance, and never waste time arguing with them.  It is completely unproductive.  Now, if I could just get my husband to learn that one.

If you have a strained relationship with certain family members, be courteous and respectful at a distance if it can not be fixed, repaired or in their eyes, nothing is wrong. [...] Not being confrontational with irrational family members does not make you passive, it makes you stress free concerning them.

Perfect!

Thank you for sharing this Dutch, this made my day!  I actually feel good, validated, that I have been doing the right thing as far as family is concerned in the effort to take care of myself.  Now, I just have to figure out everything else.....

Your the best!

MaryAnn

HI Dutch,

You have done well here, grasshopper!  But, can tell that you are still struggling a bit with the decision, choice, you want to make here.  She is bonkers.  But, most people do not realize that.  She has probably presented to many that it is rather you that is bonkers.  That is how Uhpd's and NPD's operate.  So, just remember perception is reality.  I think that you IF you reply, you hit it right on head.  Be cordial, maybe add a "Sis, I would love to come to your B-Day party but unfortunately I already have other plans and will not be able to attend", followed by the rest. 

Kill her with kindness, these types do not know how to handle that.  It just drives them more crazy.  Believe me, I know.  It is a skill I learned working with my insane family and there were lawyers involved trying to handle financial matters - forgery, theft, business ownership transfer that was attempted while my GF was still alive and then the real transfer after he passed.  Drove the "mastermind"  behind it all (the daughter-in-law) completely insane.  And I just kept getting more and more written responses that proved her insanity if we ever actually had to go to a court of law.

You are not alone on this one.  You are a intelligent, warm, and caring person.  Please do not let your sis get the better of you.  Please take care of yourself on this one, do what is best for you.  Do not let her pull her into her web and put you through unnecessary drama.  I know that you will ultimately make the best decision for you.  Best Wishes!

Mary Ann

P.S. and thank you for the info on what to do to get all the new symbols.  That is awesome.... love the Udawoman and the Witchypoo (she reminds me of the witch from HR Puffnstuff) on the broom.

Awesome!

MaryAnn