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Messages - I like vanilla

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Where I live they are gradually reopening the province, with physical distancing protocols in effect. Our pubic health officer while recommending facial masks is also adamant that she will not mandate them because many people have good reasons for not wearing one. I am one of those people and am really glad that I am not forced to wear one for riding on public transit, etc. or I would be really stuck because I really cannot wear one. It is a HUGE trigger for me.


For as long as I can remember a much older 'cousin' (W) of mine would come over to visit when his mother visited with my NM (our mothers are cousins and we have always just called him my cousin). Starting when I was about 3 years old W, who would have been about 14 or 15 at the time, would tie me up, usually to a chair (using my own skipping rope), gag me, and molest me. Because I was so young and traumatized, I have very few detailed memories, but I think he would remove the gag in order to make me perform oral sex on him, then put the gag back on. I don't think he had PIV sex with me but he did use his fingers and objects on and in me, all the while I was gagging on that cloth and trying to 'not be there' (I am sure I was dissociating a lot then, part of the reason my memories are so hazy).

I do know that the first-ish(?) time that it happened, I ran screaming to my mother for help, but being that young I was unable to articulate what had happened - what W had done to me. My mother got me in trouble for disturbing the nice visit that she was having with W's mother, why did I always have to be so noisy?, why did I always have to make trouble?, etc., etc. W did not even need to make up a story because never once did NM even ask why I was that upset...

I also suspect that my NM and certainly W's mother had some idea that W had some kind of problems. His mother would give us his old picture books and colouring books - over all of the people and many of the animals W had used markers to draw ropes and gags and torture and blood, and other forms of violence. The colouring pages were not coloured, just these torture drawings added to them and to picture books (not meant to be coloured/drawn on either way). My NM would give these books to us (me and my siblings) without ever thinking how inappropriate that was.

I also suspect my NM suspected something about what W was doing to me because after I ran screaming to her, whenever W and his mother would come to visit, she would dress me up in a nice dress, and frilly underwear (!) (I remember so few details but I remember the frilly underwear...), and tell me to behave myself and play nicely with W while NM visited with W's mother... and so of course, W had free rein to do as he liked with me. They visited 5-10 times each year.

After a few years (!) I think W no longer needed to tie me and gag me (I had given up) but he would because it was fun for him to do so. But, one time, I remember when he was done with me he stood me on a table (I am quite short and he tall so I probably came up to his knees, max to his mid thighs then) so that he could pull my frilly underwear back up and help me to put my stockings back on. He was having difficulty with the stockings - I was squirming and trying to not touch him or he me. He made me put my hands on his shoulders to steady me while he pulled on the stockings. At that time, NM came downstairs to get something, saw what was happening, and threw a fit... at me... for 'making W do bad things to me' and claiming that IF (NM still denying it all) anything happened it was totally my fault for wearing such a fancy dress and frilly underwear (clothing that she put me in) to entice him to treat me this way. It was never spoken of again.

I think W came over less often with his mother after that, though my NM still left him alone with me when he did. After a while he moved overseas for a job. I know other people did other stuff to me after that, though it is all fairly hazy, and that would be a different post.

So yeah, having any type of cloth/mask over my mouth like that is HUGELY problematic for me. And is now a great big trigger as masks are everywhere. I live in a place where people with colds already often wore them (pre-covid-19) so I can stand seeing others wear them, especially when it is not everyone, but for me it is a huge NO, not doing it, no way, no how...

**END OF DETAILS OF CSA (though some general discussions still contained below)**

I have dealt with this problem as much as possible during therapy. I thought things were OK. I had even started a healthy, sexual relationship with someone and it was going well (he knows about my past and we talk and he is careful and gentle and wonderful with and to me). Then BANG covid-19 happens and facial masks happen and I am thrown back into my childhood and helplessness and gagging and getting into trouble for it (and being betrayed by my mother for it). The face masks are almost literally driving me crazy. Oh, and even if I could go there, my therapist retired at the end of December and I have no income and no benefits and no ability (financially, physically, or emotionally) to find a new person.

I am fortunate that the government here is not mandating the facial masks. But some stores are still making it mandatory for entry. In many cases, I can just avoid that location and go to a different place. But earlier this week I needed something for my computer (under warranty) and so there was only one place I could go (ahem-apple-ahem-ahem). I had no choice but to don a mask because there is no entry otherwise, no other place for me to go, and I really need to use my computer as my business partners and I have put as much of our work as possible online to try and save the business and have some income). I even tried explaining it to them, but no go; I had to wear one. I almost threw up, I almost passed out, I definitely had a major dissociative episode. I am still, days later, in emotional flashbacks - oh, and now using my computer is also a triggery thing (thanks apple). I am barely functioning when I most need to function. OH and on top of all of that, masked people give me the stink eye because I am on transit (as little as possible but sometimes necessary) or in the store with no mask on, as if I have no right to get groceries or go to the dentist because I have a psychological injury from childhood abuse. I am afraid that more places will mandate masks and I won't be able to do the most basic of life activities. I have figured out that there is nothing at all that will ever make me put another one of those masks on, but that just narrows my world even, and I am afraid that it will narrow again. I want to tell them to stop and to make it fair, but who to tell? the person who is expert on the topic has already made it official that masks will not be mandatory because many people are unable to wear them - who is going to listen to me? And now, ironically, if I need something from a place requiring masks my only choice will be to get a friend - someone not in my household (my cat cannot go) - to get it, and how does that fit social distancing? BLARGH! I don't know what I am going to do if more places mandate masks... BLARGH!

We have to wear cloth masks on public transport or in shops and we're meant to keep 1.5 - 2 metre distance from others, but plenty of people are beginning not to bother, or never have bothered. The cloth masks or other face-covering we are meant to wear helps those around us so it only works if everybody wears it, and not everybody does. I've even been made fun of for wearing cloth masks.

I'm slightly triggered because FOO especially M used to be very derisive about my 'gullibility' and I think that's what people around me think about us mask-wearers.  :fallingbricks:

I hear where you are coming from but object to the idea that those of us not wearing masks must be 'in denial' or 'not bothering'. I have extremely good reasons for NOT wearing a mask. Terrible things were done to me in childhood and having to wear a mask now is HUGELY TRIGGERING FOR ME. I feel angry that people assume that my not wearing a mask is because I don't care or can't be bothered. I don't wear a mask because I would like to stay in my body and not have to deal with emotional flashbacks for days afterward.

Fortunately, where I live the person in charge of public health recommends masks but is adamant that she would never mandate them because many people have very good reasons for not being able to wear one. Unfortunately a number of businesses have been mandating it for entry to their location, and I fear the more will follow their lead, narrowing my already too narrow world even more and making it impossible for me to accomplish the simplest tasks such as getting groceries or doing my laundry (I go to a location outside my apartment building), etc.

Consider that many of us have VERY GOOD REASONS FOR NOT WEARING A MASK. Reasons that have NOTHING to do with being uncaring or lazy. This physical-distancing has been very difficult for me - for all of us - financially, emotionally, psychologically, spiritually and physically. I am really disappointed that on this type of site, of all places, I need to explain that mental health matters and that triggers are real, and that judging people for things you do not understand is patently unfair. Many of us have good reasons for not wearing masks and those reasons have nothing to do with apathy or laziness.

OK, there is a lot about this social distancing that is freaking me out, including: that I just went self-employed and this was supposed to be my busy season and now instead I have zero income for the foreseeable future, a friend has been notified that he has been in contact with someone with covid-19, all of my anchors are gone (no volunteer work, no weekly walk with my friend, no art class at the community centre, etc, etc.), and the complete inability to legitimately get a hug. (I live alone with my cat), etc.. On top of all of that, my therapist retired at the end of December 2019, and I have been grieving that loss.

But, what I am really, really, really get tired of are the well-meaning posts everywhere on the internet reminding us to care about our 'loving parents' and/or our 'loving families' at home, to remember to not bring the disease to them, to tell them how much we love them just in case, etc., etc., etc. I know these people really are well meaning, but BLARGH!!!! I had to close down a site and walk around my apartment a few times to prevent myself from freaking out and YELLING at someone who posted one of these friendly reminders. Why should I care about these xxx people when they not only failed to care about me, they went out their way to cause me harm?!?!?

In February I celebrated 10 years no contact with my abusive parents and about about half of my many siblings (the ones who took NM's and EF's sides). It was bittersweet, but mostly sweet because I finally chose my Self over their abuse. It was the right decision but it is one that still pains me sometimes. And now, everywhere I look I get reminders that 'everyone else' has loving parents to care about them and to worry about during these crazy times, and admonishments that I ought to be caring about mine... when in the meantime I cannot even get a legitimate hug from anyone. BLARGH! I also often feel hugely guilty because I realized that I would not be that upset if my parents died - I have been grieving their loss, or at least the loss of my illusions of who they were, for years. I feel even guiltier because the first couple times I saw these reminders that my parents could die any minute I thought 'good'. Now, I just think 'please, make it stop!'

I get these people are well meaning. I also get that it is not personal to me. But I really wish they would stop with their constant reminders about caring for and about our 'loving families'. The overwhelming majority of mine was not loving, and was actively harmful. BLARGH! And I cannot yell at the people making these postings because they really do mean well.

Plus, I did not even get to have my 10-year anniversary party with my loving, not-biologically-related-to-me family (I live far away from my biological family so the in-contact siblings would not be able to come either way).

Please, could people send hugs? I really need a hug.

Please too, if anyone has any ideas on what to write in response I would be interesting in hearing your thoughts, even if it is 'don't respond just keep saying BLARGH! to yourself and move on'. Or maybe there is a separate post that I could put on my own wall? 'Please remember some of us never had loving parents, so maybe stop giving that as a motivation for us to stay home (especially because that might be what prompts some of us to join the biggest party that we can find...)'?


Fuzzy-headed question: Is it sensible, useful etc for non-North Americans to sign the petition too? afaik there's a different diagnostic manual in use in Europe.

I am not sure if it matters for the head count for the petition (though others say it does). It does matter if it gets in the DSM, whether the manual is used in a region or not. If a condition is in not in the DSM it is nearly impossible for North American researchers to get funding for it, and often the institutions who would house the research have no interest and give no permission if there is no funding attached. One of the reasons to get it in is so that people who research/would like to research CPTSD in North America can finally get the resources needed to do so. For me, the more people researching the topic the better. If the information or break throughs happen anywhere in the world we all will ultimately benefit.

Thank you Saylor and Kizzie for the follow-up.

I knew that the money goes to the petition site rather than any of us, which made it worse for me rather than better. I tried signing again and apparently, my first try worked because I got a 'you already signed this' message.

I tried to sign the petition, but it looks like it costs a minimum of $3.00 USD to do so.

I am recently self-employed. I am now home because anything - and I literally mean anything - that I would normally do for my businesses is shut down for social distancing. I therefore currently have 0 income and 0 probability of getting income in the near future, combined with a near 100% probability that things will stay shut down during my busy season (April - June).

I do not have $3.00 USD to pay to sign a petition, no matter how much I believe in the cause, nor do I have whatever it would be to convert the $3.00 USD into my currency (definitely more than $3.00) , plus the added fees that I am certain would be charged to do so (I have no paypal account so am just guessing here about the fees).

So, I would very much like to sign the petition but I cannot afford to do so at this time. Sorry.

Therapy / Re: Emdr not clinically indicated for cptsd?
« on: December 31, 2019, 06:50:26 AM »
I'm with Bix. I tried EMDR with an EMDR specialist and it just made me worse.

The problem was compounded by the fact that so many see this is a miracle treatment/cure so negative results get pooh-poohed too easily. On top of that, I was told that I was not responding properly not because the treatment was wrong for me but some combination of I was in denial and/or resistant to being treated (at all) and/or I just needed to find someone who did it properly, I was seeing a therapist so therefore could not know what I was talking about, and/or anything other than the fact that EMDR just made me get worse instead of better. Essentially I was being gaslighted by the people who were supposed to be supportive of me and my treatment needs.

Be careful of EMDR and know that it might work for many but it is also harmful to many of us. If it works for you then more power to you. However, if it is making you worse then it is OK to say so and try something else, no matter what anyone tells you about it.

p.s. I have responded very positively to sensory motor psychotherapy so all of the baloney trying to make it my fault is just that, baloney.

Ideas/Tools for Recovery / Re: Meditation with cptsd
« on: December 31, 2019, 06:36:55 AM »
I have never been able to do the sit-still-and-have-a-blank-mind type of meditation that so many insist is the right way to mediate.

I thought I could not meditate at all until someone close to me who has an interest in the topic pointed out that I do meditate. I go on early morning walks and touch base with myself and my inner children and my feelings, and just let my thoughts and feelings flow through me to see what comes up. It turns out that this is not just a form of meditation but a 'valid' one. So, now I know I can mediate. I just generally need to be in motion while I do it.

Ideas/Tools for Recovery / Re: Re/Claiming Denied Interests!
« on: December 31, 2019, 06:33:44 AM »
This is a good topic - thank you for taking the initiative to start this thread.

I have been doing a lot of art work lately. I have discovered that I really enjoy water colour painting. I have also been playing a lot with mixed media projects, which I take pleasure in doing, especially if I can make one with lots of textures.

This for me is a (re)claiming. I did not know I had any skills in art until I started pushing back on my abusive NM. She is really good at art, so, of course, I was never 'allowed' to be too. Then, I went through a stage of not wanting to do art so to not be good at something that she is good at and to have skills that I likely got from her. But, the call in me to create, to explore, to make art, is just too strong. So, now I do it because I enjoy it and it feels good, and I have can something for me without it being in reaction to my mother either way.

And, I am enjoying it, and it does feel good. I am finding it is often also very therapeutic too - when I do art I am fully in my body and feeling my feelings and expressing them in my projects. There is something to be said for that too.

Having an Exceptionally Difficult Day / My Therapist is Retiring
« on: February 22, 2019, 03:06:06 PM »
So, I found out last appointment (earlier this week) that my therapist is retiring this summer.

At first I was fairly numb about it. But, now the feelings are hitting me and they are unhappy ones - fear, anger, sadness, and a few other related ones. UGH! I am trying to stay in the moment, and practise self-care, but this week I have slid back somewhat, with dissociation, and emotional flashbacks that I have not had in this way for quite some time. I also have a lot of things going on in my life right now (many of them positive), and a number are looking to come to a head this summer... after my therapist retires. UGH!

That is as far as I have gotten with all of this. UGH!

Frustrated? Set Backs? / steps forward - internal backlash in return
« on: October 12, 2018, 01:29:10 AM »
So, I have been taking a number of positive steps in my life: caring for my health (diet and exercise), networking for my career, making sure to stay in touch with friends, flirting with a guy I like, etc.

And now, big surprise (<sarcasm) I feel like crap. My inner self - those cancerous mental and emotional tumours my NM implanted and fostered in me since I was born are not just festering but actively trying to kill me again. I now feel sad and unmotivated and tired and sad and more sad and more and more sad and the suicidal ideation is back full force (not suicidal but not different enough from suicidal either). And instead of enjoying progress, I just want to go to bed and hide and cry and sleep and cry some more. But I can't because I have work and a life that I am trying to hold on to so I will force myself to keep going enough though I do not want to.

UGH! Does it never stop?!? Can I never just make progress and be happy about it without this internal backlash? It takes enough energy to just take these steps. I have none left to also fight the backlash.


I have had smell flashbacks. I do not always know what they are attached to; I have more 'body memories' than 'cognitive memories' of past events, but I do have smell flashbacks.

It's funny, I do not think I have ever seen smell flashbacks in the literature, and I do periodically browse the CPTSD literature (such as it is). I think that lack is troubling because a) there really is not enough research on CPTSD overall, b) those doing the research are not getting the full story, and c) it makes those of us experiencing phenomenon such as smell flashbacks question our own reality and experiences. Maybe now that CPSTD is in the DSM it will be studied more?

But, anecdotally, yes, smell flashbacks does seem to be a thing for at least some of us with CPTSD.

Hi SE7,

Good for you! It takes a lot of courage and strength to leave an unhealthy situation and to be LC/NC with those who would harm us.

You asked if anyone else was going through the same type of responses. Not to make light of things but to offer some hope - The good news is that no, I am not. However, I DID go through almost the same type of response right after I left my abusive FOO. So good news; this too shall pass. There is hope.

For me it helped to give myself time to grieve the loss of my family and relationships with my family members. Yes they were bad for me but they were everything I knew, and I did love them and believed that they loved me. These are huge losses and it is normal(1) to be all discombobulated after separating from them.

For me there was also a great deal of confusion and a giant void. Yes, I was out of a chaotic situation and one that was harmful to me but now what? What (1)should I be feeling? What should I be doing? I had no idea what to do with all of that energy I had been spending on being hyper-vigilant. I had not idea what to do with all of that energy that I had been directing towards fear, unhappiness, anger, etc. I had no idea how to just be in the world. How to have a more nuanced, balanced, and even happy experience of emotions. I had no frame of reference for any of that.

It took a lot of time and therapy and homework and trial and error but I have figured it out - OK, figured out a lot of it; I am still working on a lot of it too, but now in a more stabilized emotional and physical place. You will get there too.

Looking back, for me what helped:
  • going to the library and sitting quietly where I could be around people in a 'gentle' (clean, quiet, safe) space but not be expected to interact with anyone
    -gradually, I added 'ask the librarian a question about a book' in order to have safe, gentle interactions with fellow humans
  • going for walks in my neighbourhood
  • going for walks in local parks/wooded areas
  • bubble baths and chocolate :D

But yes, at the very beginning even these actions were way beyond what I was capable of doing, and no one (including me) could force me into any of it. Often, I sat on the kitchen floor and cried because I did not even have enough energy to make a bowl of cereal, and was not even hungry but felt that I 'ought to' eat. Often, I sat in the living room and cried because I did not have the energy to even read a book even though books had always been my go-to refuge in times of stress, and I did not even have the energy to pick a book if I had had the energy to read it. Often, I sat wherever I was and cried because even though I had done this brave, healthy-for-me action (separating physically from my FOO) I felt lost and alone and uncertain and scared and wondering what in the world I had done to my life. I was in this big, dark, empty void and had no idea how to get out and it was uncomfortable and scary terrifying.(2)

In between crying, and with the support of the therapist I had at the time, I did my best to just feel the nothingness left in the void after I stopped having to feel alert and sad and angry, etc. all the time. That part was also tremendously uncomfortable and terrifying. Even though it was uncomfortable to live in a constant state of alertness and fear, I had not noticed that uncomfortableness fear until I was left in the void and the void. At the time, to me the void was far scarier. It was so big and dark and empty, and unknown.

But, I promise you over time, and with trial and error, and hopefully supportive others (professional or otherwise, and including people here on the forum), you will eventually start feeling again, only this time along with anger and sadness, fear and alertness, you will now have room for other feelings - happiness and contentment, satisfaction, joy, love, etc. And, at first, all of these new 'positive' emotions were tremendously uncomfortable for me too (2). (ah, irony is a nasty one sometimes). Yes, these are 'positive' emotions, but in their authentic forms they were so unfamiliar to me I had no idea what to do with them. And, because they are 'positive' there is a huge taboo for us to be uncomfortable with them. Plus, I felt all kinds of other emotions such as guilt, for having them. It was a bit of a head trip. But with trial and error and patience, and supportive others, I have been figuring it out. I am fortunate too that at the time I had a decent therapist, and currently have a very good one.

You will figure it all out too. This experience - the living without the constant dart attacks, the living without the alertness and hyper-vigilance, the being on your own is all new and raw for you. But, it is also a bit like learning a new instrument or new sport. It will take practice. Worse, it also has a fair amount of unlearning old ways. Recently, I read Clara Hughes'(3) autobiography. She talks about moving from speed skating to cycling and back again. Some of the skills of one carried over into the other but in many cases she had to unlearn the movements and strategies of one to be successful in the other. For her it was often a painful experience that took huge amounts of work. But, in the end she medaled in both at the Olympics and on other world stages, proving it can be done.

You have made it through everything you have made it through. So, you know that you have the strength to do this too. And, the rewards of getting through the void are really worth it. You have already achieved Olympic-medal level standing in the dealing-with-darts category. I have every faith that you will also achieve Olympic-medal level standing in getting through the void. I encourage you to give yourself time. You are adjusting to a huge new reality and sometimes that means sitting and crying, and feeling terrible and that is OK (well, not OK OK as it feels terrible, but OK in that it is a - ahem - normal, expected part of the loss and grieving that you are experiencing).  I also encourage you too to do your best to practise self-care, in whatever form self-care works for you and in whatever form you are able to manage, even if it is something as -ahem - 'simple' (1) as brushing your teeth sometime this week (that one was a goal for me while I was in the void - it might or might not apply for you).

Right now everything kind of sucks for you and I think, unfortunately, that is a stage in the process. Fortunately, it is a stage and it is a process. It will not last forever and eventually, with fits and starts and trial and error, you will move to a new stage. You will, step-by-step eventually move out of the void and into a new, better place in your life.  :hug:

(1) Forgive me for the use of draconian words like 'normal', 'should', and simple but I want for better ones right now.

(2) Forgive me also for making everything sound so bleak. At the time everything did feel bleak, even when I was 'doing the right thing'. But, I ended up feeling that much worse because people never talked about this side of the equation, and worse because those that understood my situation were doing 'good for you' and 'expecting' that now I had done it life would be milk and honey for me (and being surprised and less understanding to me when it was not). I wish someone had told me that it is - ahem - normal to have discomfort and fear during this process - or joy, or anger, or frustration, or whatever it is we are feeling. There is no 'right way' to feel any of this, and it is OK to have whatever feelings we are having even if it is the so-called 'negative' ones.

(3)Because even many Canadians are unfamiliar with Clara Hughes, or know of her but not her story - Hughes grew up with an alcoholic father and enabling mother. She suffered from depression for most of her life though either did not know about it or, later, was in denial about it. She channeled her energy into sports (speed skating and cycling), later realizing that she was using the physical pain of training to try and replace the emotional pain she was experiencing, and also trying to use medal-winning to fill her void. She is the only athlete to have won multiple medals in both the winter and summer Olympics. Retired from that level of sports, she is now an active humanitarian (with Right to Play and a few other causes), an Officer of the Order of Canada, and a Spokesperson for Bell's Let's Talk Mental Health initiative. (most of the above taken from her autobiography). I have huge respect for her and what she has accomplished.

Is it possible to use the 'I feel' statements?

E.g. 'I feel sad when you make jokes about my weight because it hurts my feelings. I would like you to stop making these types of comments.'

I have found that the I feel statements can be effective because they have whole truth. They focus on your feelings, which are unique to you and true for you.

I admit, I have no children, but do work with many of various ages. From what I can tell, usually by Kindergarten or so (younger than your godson) most children understand about hurting people's feelings (often having experienced themselves). Generally, if children understand that they have hurt someone's feelings they feel badly for having done so and do their best to avoid doing so in the future. (totally anecdotal but that has been my experience).

Neglect/Abandonment / Re: Witholding opportunities
« on: July 30, 2018, 08:54:35 PM »
I think witholding opportunities, and trying to taint any opportunities someone tries to create for themselves are in fact abusive. I never really thought of this so much before, because I was focused on the more obvious abuses, but this really bothers me now. It mostly bothers me I didn't get away and do my own thing, pursue the arts, get out of my stockholm syndrome and went NC at age 18. I wanted to run away since 14 but I was afraid I would be returned home only to be beaten more.

I agree; it is totally abusive. The narcissistic parents steal so much from their children. I am sorry that your NM stole so much from you. I often weep in my T's office when I realize (or finally admit) to another part of my life that my NM stole from me, and reading your post I realize often when was taken was opportunities - to try new things, to learn something new, to pursue an activity that would have made me happy, etc.

I think that this stealing is partly a failure to recognize the children (or anyone else, but their children are an easy target) as separate beings from the NM (or NF). Ironically, I think the stealing is also partly because the NP (Narc parent) recognizes that the child is trying to individuate and the NP must do everything possible to stop the process - the child must, from the NP point of view, remain continuously dependent on, subservient to, and even a part of the NP rather than ever becoming a full Self in an of themselves.

It is not just abusive; it is an attempt to steal our very Selves (which, I guess by definition is also abusive...).

But, I think there is hope. For many of us we somehow managed to tuck our Selves in someplace safe where our NPs could not find it. The key now is to figure out who we are and how to let our Selves out and be safe (protected by us) in the world. I suppose the downside is that by tucking ourselves away we ultimately have to deal with the process of uncovering our Selves and usually while also managing CPTSD. Unlike those with PTSD from a one-off event, who aim to be 'the person they were before the bad thing happen', those of us with childhood-abuse CPTSD are now on the journey of learning who we are (our Selves were so young when we secured them away that parts must now be developed).

I think this board helps with that uncovering process.  It is a complicated, difficult, painful, joyous, and ultimately satisfying process for all of us, but one worth doing. 

GOOD FOR YOU! That you have the courage to start the process, and continue the process! YOU are DEFINITELY WORTH the EFFORT!

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