My mom, is she narcissistic or not?

[LeonLaviu]

I'm very confused.

If you had similar experiences I'd love your input.

When I discovered all about NPD it was really clear that my mom was one. My brother the golden boy, me the scapegoat, and my dead dad was co-dependant on her.

The description of Narcissistic family structure, was very similar to my family, and the feelings or thoughts of a scapegoat description, were very similar to mine. So it was simple math.

When I realized, I didn't cut ties, cause we were already distant, but kept relationships at a minimum.

But this year my mom did something very unexpected that really surprised me: she wanted to talk.

I went to her house and she was crying, she told me she was very sorry for everything, for being such a bad mom and she was very worried about me cause she thinks I'm going nowhere in life and she felt guilty about it.

I told her it was ok, she asked why I never tell her anything about my life. I told her because she is so pessimistic that she always brings me down


after that we kept talking a little more.

I still feel uncomfortable around her, and if it was for me I would never see her again, because the damage, even if she is honestly sorry, is already done.

She lives with my brother, and I'm distant to my brother, we were never close, but we don't hate eachother either. I still feel sad about losing the oportunity of having a brother as a friend.

And it got me thinking.

Maybe she is getting softer cause she is older?

The things that make me think she is a narcissist, to list a few:

-The preference for my brother over me, creating the golden boy - scapegoat dynamic
-She never wanted to do things with me as a child
-When my father died, instead of talking about it as a normal person, she sent me for a week to live with my uncle (he's a cool guy tho)
-She always bring me down about my ideas and projects as an artist, she only cared about money
-As a kid she alwasy called me dumb (but to be fair she always calls herself dumb when she mess up)
-When I confronted her about things like treating me a certain way, or never talking to me about my father's dead, she said she didn´t knew, that I seemed like I was doing fine
-She convinced my father who didn't want kids, into having me. My father was from a high class family, and later in life she benefited from it
-She tricked my father into having another baby (my brother) by removing her contraceptive method. when my brother was 3, she told him
-Because of that my family was very polarized, my dad was distant to my brother and close to me, and my mother distant to me and close to my brother
-My dad died of cancer and in deep debt when I was 12. I think he wanted to die. I think he felt betrayed by her and things would never the same between them. He had low self esteem and it was very shy, my mother was her only important relationship in his life
-I'm an actor, she never went te see me on any of my plays, or cared for the things I did


The things that make me doubt

-She has been on antidepresants all my life, I have probably never seen her as she really is
-She was scapegoated in her family as well
-She was sexually abused as a kid
-She tried to kill herself a few times when she was younger
-She is very lonely, doesn't really have friends, spend all her time on bed watching tv or drinking beer
-She is not very emotionaly supportive, but she transfers me money monthly since I started living by my own, even tho I never asked her to. she was good at business (sometimes I feel like she is buying me, to keep contact) At first I'd really considered not taking her money, but then I thought if it serves as compansation for all the abuse, I might as well take it and use it for therapy.

And I wonder, maybe she is just very numbed and emotionally iliterate, but not really a narcissist. Maybe she is narcissist but as she gets old she realize she needs me and she wants to keep contact cause she don't have many people around.

either way I feel sorry for her, it makes me sad, and that's why I keep contact with her, distant, but still contact.
Maybe she is playing me?

What do you think??


 

[Desert Flower]

Hi LeonLaviu, I understand your confusion very well.
Not so long ago we had a conversation here about 'The two sides of my mother'.
https://www.cptsd.org/forum/index.php?topic=14784.0

There's so many things you write that resonate with me. It's remarkable: Our dad also died when we were kids (quite suddenly) and he was never talked about again. And we were never ever asked how we were doing or how we were feeling about that. I also wrote a post about that. Turns out this situation (and others) has made me dissociate a lot.
https://www.cptsd.org/forum/index.php?topic=16200.0

Unfortunately, abuse or neglect or whatever is not always so clearcut. And that makes it very difficult to recognize what's going on. I think you're doing very well here in trying to decipher. And while we may never really understand these people, maybe what matters more is that we recognize what it did to us. What we have been lacking and how we can help ourselves take better care of ourselves now. One thing we can do, is share our experiences, like you're doing too to try and make sense of them. These people will probably never change. But we can change how we relate to them and get our needs met in other, healthier ways than before.

I think what you're saying about not cutting ties, because you were distant all along, is very wise and helpful to me too. There's not so much to cut. That makes me feel less guilty.

I do think it's quite something your m did say sorry. I can imagine that would make it all the more confusing. I don't think my m would ever (be able to) acknowledge how we were (mis-)treated. But I am working on that in therapy now and making some new neural pathways for that and that is incredibly powerful and helpful.

[Rizzo]

Hi, I don't know if your mom is narcissistic, but it sounds from what you're saying that it's not an easy experience.
I won't pretend to be a professional. I'm sorry about your dad.
I sometimes wonder if my dad is a narcissist.
I can really relate to the things you write..
You are very brave, that's how I feel.

[NarcKiddo]

It's really hard, isn't it?

One thing to consider is how much it matters to know whether she is or isn't. Narcissistic behaviours have a spectrum and every individual is different. The apology is unusual for a narc - but then blaming oneself is also a way to get attention. So who knows if she is playing you?

Perhaps it may be helpful for you to consider (as you obviously are doing and have done for a long time) how much of her behaviour you can tolerate and how you can remain true to your boundaries while maintaining whatever level of contact is best for you.

My mother is pretty much a textbook narc but as she is getting older she cannot use the overt power plays any more and is now playing the little old lady cards. I'd almost rather she reverted to the gorgon she used to be as it would be easier to tell her where to get off now that I know I can!

I wish you well. It sounds like you are dealing with this in a very mature and sensible way. Good for you.

[Chart]

LeonLaviu, I'm just going to chime in quickly and suggest you focus primarily on yourself. Especially if feelings og guilt are tormenting you about all this, work on that. In my opinion, we do not "owe" anything to our parents (contrary to popular social mores). And since now we are so diligently working on our Cptsd, our perpetrators are just not entitled to much of our concern. I am currently re-parenting myself. I want to also live a life. My mothers needs are absolutely not my priority.
That's my personal take on things.

[Dante]

My family structure was EXACTLY the same.  Narcissist mother (I have no doubt), golden child sibling, I was the scapegoat.  Father was co-dependent/absent, and is dead now.

My mother also plays the guilt card really, really, really well.  There are different types of narcissists, and it's worth reading about them because it helps you to see their strategy.  (The waif gets attention by being the victim - not saying your mother is, but I see some of that).

The fact that you say you could take or leave her says a lot about your relationship.  And I agree with everyone else.  You need to focus on you.  Especially if your brother still lives with her, then you're not even in a position to have to be responsible for her in older age.  (In my case, unfortunately, my brother and I haven't spoken since my father died almost 10 years ago, and he lives across the country so the expectation falls to me to take care of her - fortunately, that hasn't arisen yet, but I dread the day when it does).

I'm starting to learn that labels are helpful to start healing, but they become a roadblock down the road.  I (and from what I read, many of us) question if we were even abused.  We were gaslighted into believing we were the problem, shamed into looking into any other families to see how unhealthy we were.  The labels help me to see its not normal, but at least for me, I get stuck on the labels and then I don't move past it into healing (is it A or B is less valuable to me than how do I heal from what I experienced).

But I can validate that your experiences were the same as mine, and most days I'm pretty sure it wasn't healthy.

[LeonLaviu]

Thank you everyone for your input and kind words.


I'm surprised to see a lot of you had the same family structure with the dead dad an all.


I think I feel bad for her cause I can see how her life was even harder than mine, and she had very a horrible childhood herself. Even if she might be a narcissist, she did better than her own mother.

I think she said sorry, cause over the years, after doing a lot of interpesonal workshops a few times I confronted her about thinks she did on my childhood. She always apologized, but in a very cold way. I don't think she really ment it, or really understood why it was an issue. But she have the general idea of doing something wrong. Or maybe as the possibility of not being NPD she was just numb, like all her life.

I agree with you that is more important to focus on myself, and to see how it feels to be around her. That's the compass, and if it doesn't feel good, then I have my answer

I also agree that cutting ties officially would had been worse and more scandalous for the rest of the family (uncles, cousins, even childhood friend who know her, etc) than just keeping very distant ties as they are

Thank you very much to all of you

 

[Armee]

Hi,

I know well what it's like to wonder and need to identify exactly what happened and is happening. Knowing the label is both important and unimportant. I agree with what others already wrote so I won't say much other than:

1. I'm so sorry for your loss;

2. As you search for the name of what has happened to you and why, you may also want to look at Borderline Personality Disorder. It's similar to narcissistic PD in terms of the actions of the person and the damage done to the people around them. The underlying psychological motivation is a little different. Outcomes are basically the same. You could probably search "BPD" or "Borderline" on the forums to find some more information or look on the Outside of the Fog forum.

3. Your mom's apology was not really an apology. It was focused and motivated by HER feelings and needs not YOURS. That's not really an apology and I wanted to say that because I am thinking it's possible you feel really conflicted about that apology, like on the one hand it's good she apologized but on the other hand maybe you still have a really bad feeling about it. That wasn't an apology. Did she ask how you felt? Did she focus on the impacts of her behaviors on you? Did she come across as concerned for you? Or was it only about her?

[Desert Flower]

Your mom's apology was not really an apology. It was focused and motivated by HER feelings and needs not YOURS.

Excellent point Armee. That helps us feel less confused. Thank you.

[Bach]

Your mom's apology was not really an apology. It was focused and motivated by HER feelings and needs not YOURS. That's not really an apology and I wanted to say that because I am thinking it's possible you feel really conflicted about that apology, like on the one hand it's good she apologized but on the other hand maybe you still have a really bad feeling about it. That wasn't an apology. Did she ask how you felt? Did she focus on the impacts of her behaviors on you? Did she come across as concerned for you? Or was it only about her?

Thank you for posting this, Armee.  It is SUCH an important point!  Now that my mother is a lonely widow, she has tried many times to offer me this kind of apology.  This explains why it never feels meaningful and indeed always makes me feel worse.