Breaking the cycle

[Saluki]

I survived complex forms of abuse from my mother. I cut her out of my life when it became apparent that she was beginning to exhibit the same types of abuse on my children. They were 9 and 6 when I cut her out of our lives.

My kids and I also escaped severe domestic violence a year prior to this.

My eldest has had EFs for a long time. He was adamant that he didn't want therapy, because it "wouldn't help".

A couple weeks ago my son physically attacked me and shouted abuse mirroring the abuse my psychopath (diagnosed) ex we fled from used. This wasn't the first time, but it had been escalating and this was the worst time. I called the emergency mental health team but the police had to be called too due to the violence and threats.

He's no longer able to live here. It's unsafe and unhealthy for all of us.

I'm desperate for him to finally accept that he needs therapy to process the abuse he experienced and to learn to cope with EFs, triggers, etc.

Has anyone else here experienced the cycle of abuse being played out towards them by their own children?

I've been very, very understanding and reasonable until now, but he's absolutely crossed the line and he can't come back.

But I'm very worried about him, his mental health is awful and he's frequently talked about suicide.

It's kind of I'm wrong whatever I do at this point.

Thanks in advance for any ideas.

[dollyvee]

I'm sorry Saluki, that's a very stressful situation. I don't have any advice or have been in a similar situation, but I hear you.

I guess it would depend on the age he is perhaps and what rights you have as a legal guardian to treat him ie can he be institutionalised (for his own safety). If he's an adult, the only thing IMO you can do is set some boundaries.

[Kizzie]

I am so very sorry to hear this Saluki. I don't have experience with this situation but if he gets treatment, lots of it on a steady basis I would think that would be the most helpful thing. And perhaps if you and he went to family therapy so he feels support and care from you and you both share what living with domestic violence was like for you. You did get yourself and your children out of that but perhaps it is all that happened before that he needs to come to grips with and be heard about? I imagine the same is very true for you.

[NarcKiddo]

I am sorry you are dealing with this.

I have no direct experience but a family member has. Her husband had children from a prior marriage and the mother of those children is severely mentally ill. Her husband had to go to court to get custody of them, and did. The children wanted to live with their father but the mother fought it. The older boy became increasingly delusional and violent and in the end they had to have him removed for the safety of the rest of the family, which was two adults, a mid teenager and an 8 year old. At the time the older boy who was removed was just under 18 and the council had to sort out suitable accommodation for him. This is in the UK. The older boy continues to have mental health problems. His father and stepmother are supporting him as best they can and remain in contact but it is out of the question for him to live with them. He has sometimes accepted he needs help and then will go back on it and refuse to take his meds. The whole situation is very hard for all concerned. His father and stepmother obviously struggle with the decision to remove him but it was necessary for the welfare of all other family members living there.

You are completely between a rock and a hard place and you have my greatest sympathy. Whatever you do, you simply have to protect the safety of the other family members. I hope your son eventually accepts and gets help.

[Saluki]

Thank you everyone. I forgot to say he's in his early 20s. It would have been so much easier for everyone especially himself if he'd accepted moving to supported accommodation prior to everything getting unmanageable...

[Desert Flower]

Dear Saluki, I cannot say I have shared experiences but I just wanna say this must be so hard to be going through, I feel for you. And you are dealing with it the only way I think you can deal with this: bringing yourself and your youngest to safety. Unfortunately, we cannot control what our adult children (will) do and our responsibility is not endless. Sending you lots of support and hope that the eldest may seek help after all.

[Saluki]

Thank you Desert Flower. I needed to hear that right now.

[Chart]

Has anyone else here experienced the cycle of abuse being played out towards them by their own children?

My eldest daughter started showing serious signs of problems when she entered High School. There she met for the first time a Trans girl and for the next year she slowly slipped into bouts of external aggressive behavior between long periods of seclusion. She displayed regular passive-aggressive behavior and began a campaign of maligning other family members and manipulating those around her who were younger or weaker. It all became very difficult. She was suffering and I did everything in my power to get her therapeutic help. She didn't get along very well with her therapist who was specialized in adolescents. Next there was an association dedicated to teenagers going through difficult times. This was totally  useless and disorganized. Next I brought in a family therapist with the idea of helping the whole family to be able to work together with ALL the difficulties we faced, not just one persons... my eldest daughter could barely participate. Finally, she became delusional that everyone she didn't like was being discriminatory and abusing her because she was Trans. And she always refused to talk about it. And when she did talk about it, it was a kind of no-sense insanity that came out, things that didn't happen and intense but false impressions of what was said or done. I remember talking to a lot of people at the time. All this occurred in the house of my companion, and involved her son as well as my two other children. I finally made the decision to put my eldest daughter into boarding school, to which she agreed. But shortly after the transition she wrote to me expressing a very angry intention to never speak to me again. I responded a few times, trying to correct the falsehoods she was portraying, but realized very quickly that I was no longer dealing with a rational person. Sadly, I threw in the towel. I wrote saying that I would no longer argue with her. That I hoped one day in the future we could have relationship, but that at the present time she needed to work through her difficulties on her own, as she refused my help and totally disagreed with my perception of reality. She is 18 now and an adult and I have only written to her to say that I will continue to support her financially. She did not respond, and I was very happy that she (ultimately) accepted my support for her university studies. No response, for me, was as good as I could hope for.

This crap is hard. That my eldest daughter is completely out of whack with reality is really really hard. That she hates me and blames me for all her problems (I've been told that she claims childhood trauma as one of my bad parenting attributes.) And I was for sure not a perfect parent. Even now I scratch my head and wonder if I'm not forgetting, or denying, or repressing things that I may have inflicted on my kids. The doubt is horrible. But somewhere inside me I know that I really did do my best. I know I have problems, but that I kept a lid on 80 to 90 percent of what I had boiling inside me and that for the most part, the things that would have been extremely destructive did not spill out. None of my children suffered from neglect, emotional or physical. The day of birth of my first child was one of the most beautiful days of my life, and I held onto that, I felt it, and I never forgot it. I loved my children deeply and I cared for them in all the ways that a child needs. The things I did do wrong, I do not deny. Nor have I forgotten or tried to diminish them. When certain things have come up with my kids, I have recognized and apologized. It is my belief that my first child did indeed inherit a certain quantity of generational trauma from my past. Her birth as well was very difficult. I believe that I observed things about her during her life that have led her to a significantly narcissistic behavior. I believe however that she is still developing and that these traits are not permanent. I have been greatly comforted by similar observations from others that know my daughter well, so I believe that I am not making stuff up...

Here is what I have done and will continue to do:
1) I love my daughter (who is Trans and identifies as a male).
2) I want all to be well for us, with all my heart.
3) I am ready to have a relationship whenever we can agree on those things that are important to BOTH of us.
4) I require that my limits be respected. If I am not respected, we cannot have a relationship. This is not arbitrary. Respect means seeing things for what they truly are, and recognizing that "truth" and "reality" are not simply what we decide them to be.
5) Regardless of the future, I will always love the child I raised and NEVER abandon that love I have even if the person does not allow for us to have a relationship.

That has been my experience and my thoughts and feelings. I hope that all made sense. I am still terribly torn up about it. It is still to a great extent disbelief in my mind. It's really hard still.

[Desert Flower]

This must be really really hard Chart. And I'm sure you did do your best. We are certainly not perfect but we are working on ourselves to do as little damage as we can, and this is something many others cannot rightfully say. And like I said, we are not endlessly responsible for what our adult kids do. And at some point, we do have to set some boundaries too, to protect ourselves. I'm sending you big hugs, I know you are a good person (and so are you @Saluki, just to be sure).   

[Saluki]

Wow, thank you for sharing your story, Chart.
I say wow because I wonder if it's a coincidence that my eldest son is also trans.Born as my daughter. I've done everything I can to be supportive. Everything. Really.

At the beginning, I told him, well, her, at the time, not to worry about it. Growing up is a life transition in itself.I told him how when I was a kid I thought I was a boy. How I didn't cope well with puberty and the expectations on me because of being female -I went to an all girls school, and I didn't get along with it at all.I wanted to play football and learn metalworking and woodwork. I wanted to be in the army cadets like the boys in the boys' school. I reassured him that he'd get used to his changing body, that these days it's easier for boyish girls, that I'd been a tomboy too.Still am.But that having kids changed my life, that I'm so glad I did. And that it would be okay.

At the time, he accepted this. But the longer it went on, the more YouTube videos he watched about "transphobia", the more aggressive he became. My supportive words became "abuse", "transphobia" and "bigotry".

See how I'm still calling him "he"?

I just got used to it and accepted him. But he got worse and worse, more and more aggressive. He developed an OBSESSION with "transphobia". He developed severe, aggressive aversions to certain words. If I used these words in my vocabulary, even if I said them to someone else, he would fly into a rage.

He would regularly initiate conversations around the subject of identity politics, then when/if I gave an opinion he didn't like, he would call me names especially the word for female dog, (which my psychopath ex husband called me on a daily basis). He desperately wanted me to hate Elon Musk. I have absolutely no opinion on Elon Musk, apart from he seems to be doing pretty well businesswise. I don't care about celebrities. My son would fly into an absolute rage if I said "I don't know what happened in his life between him and his child who's not speaking to him. I'm not interested. It's none of my business". He wanted me to judge and hate- something I thought he despised? Judgement is fine unless directed at him, it seems.

One day I was sitting watching a video. He came to initiate a conversation about why I'm not allowed to use the word "trannie" in conversation, regardless of the concept, because it's "triggering" to him. I told him that some people are transvestites who call themselves trannies, that I had a friend in the 90s who called himself a tranny, and that I've been called one and called myself one plenty of times in the past, and I don't care, it's not a word that offends me, that if it's not used in an insulting way, it's not a deliberate "slur".
He flew into such a rage when I said the word "trannie" and threw his freshly brewed cup of tea over me, pushed me, slammed the kitchen door so hard that paint cracked onto the floor, shouting that I'm a female dog and should unalive myself.

Apart from the cup of tea, this type of behaviour has been the norm for several years, including throwing things at me or at the floor, including heavy objects down the stairs.

It's not normal.

I'm not "transphobic".

I accepted he wants to live as a male. Both myself, my partner, his younger brother (who was born male and of whom my eldest is insanely jealous), my step kids and my dad make sure to call him "he/him".

I'm sick of him inventing imaginary traumas that he found on YouTube videos.

So I have started looking at stories of other parents of trans kids with regards to this obnoxious behaviour and it appears that these kids are being taught to hate the very people who support them.

It took me a long time to understand why people were concerned about their kids being "groomed by trans activists".

But at this point, what else am I supposed to think?

Because we were nothing but reasonable and supportive. Obviously, we have had our moments, but if I don't agree with absolutely every single nuance (he understands and has zero nuance), I am enemy number 1.

I'm so so sorry you're going through this,Chart. Sending you so much empathy.

[Chart]

Saluki, me too, I'm so sorry YOU have experienced this too. I refuse to condone violent aggressive unjust behavior. My trans daughter (the language confusion is a nightmare...) was also insanely jealous of her younger brother. She was mean and cruel and treated him terribly.

At a certain point I felt I had to take action to protect my other children and my companion's son (my trans daughter was telling him he was in reality homosexual...)

It just became insane.

I refused for a long time to use the trans pronouns I was "required" to use. Even now I find it nearly impossible to use "he" for my eldest trans daughter. She is biologically female. I might be able to get to that point if I had an iota of understanding and the scientific acceptance that biology does in fact matter... and far more than the trans movement is willing to acknowledge (the issue of sports being the more obvious issue). But it's all or nothing in the trans movement.

So, faced with all the insanity, I decided to no longer argue. Limits. I'm okay to call my trans daughter by her chosen name... Leon, but before I refer to her as "he" we need to discuss her psychological difficulties. I'm not okay with how she treats me and the other members of the family. So ultimately a relationship is about understanding, common ground and acceptance. But this goes both ways. Reasonable people understand this. Narcissists don't. For me, the trans movement is about domination and control, ultimately a power issue. Girls who experienced traumatic events that turn around powerlessness are particularly prone to getting sucked into the brain washing ideology of the extreme trans movement. (My daughter had a traumatic birth where she was stuck in the birth canal for an inordinately long time, which for me equals a traumatic experience of powerlessness...)

Note, there are trans individuals who do not go along particularly with the trans movement.

I don't believe I'm transphobic in the slightest. I am on the other hand extremely anti-fascist.

Narcissists and fascists posing as abused and discriminated against... well, what can I do? Very simply I don't see reality this way.

How many times have I heard the adage: what a narcissist accuses you of is a description of themselves... I witnessed this over and over, from my ex-wife to my trans daughter... Faced with blindness in others there is nothing that can be done but establish limits.

I'm rambling... I'm so sorry. But this hits me deeply. I tried to be open and understanding. I know I made mistakes too, but the truth is that the behavior was completely manipulative and narcissistic. I actually believe my resistance to all the insanity was necessary, for me and for the hope that one day my trans daughter will come to a deeper understanding about herself. But that's her life and her adventure and I can hope, but ultimately I've gotta take care of myself (and the children I'm still responsible for).

My trans daughter is 18 now. She's still developing mentally, but society says she's an adult. I firmly believe reality will provide the education she now needs. I will always love her. But I won't accept being treated inappropriately.

Thank you for listening and my apologies again if any of this is offensive. I'll gladly delete any or all if you want.

[Saluki]

Thanks Chart. Nothing at all you wrote is offensive. It's your experience. You know, that's one of the things that's been causing tension here: all the "education" from my son on what offended him, what his "triggers" were, and how I needed to adapt my language, behaviour and personality in order for him not to fly off the handle.

I kept telling him that it's unreasonable for him to attempt to manipulate the world around him to adapt to his mental illness (he's been telling me he has CPTSD around the perceived "transphobia" he apparently experienced.) Whereas, if he actually does indeed have CPTSD, the triggers aren't genuine: they're invented from watching YouTube and reading trans Reddit and so forth. He's been reacting to other people's traumas. I've witnessed it developing and it's complete madness. If I don't "validate" his "triggers" and behave unnaturally around him, he explodes into a rage. Yes, it's very narcissistic. Because his actual trauma was from living with the psychopath ex husband, his birth father, who was severely abusive. My son has adapted his experience to incorporate transphobia, which would be understandable if he treated me and the members of our household with dignity, care and respect. Instead, he's shouting and raging that we're disrespectful simply for setting boundaries with him. No, no and no. I am not going to act out a fantasy where I'm walking on broken glass just so I don't set him off. I never know what will set off his rages, because his "triggers" keep changing and increasing. I told him actually, it's a good idea to get some psychological help from a therapist to cope with your triggers. This was seen in itself to be offensive. I told him that the world won't change to adapt to his triggers. He's going to have to learn to live in the world. Apparently, that's offensive. Every person who "misgenders" him becomes basically an evil person. He refuses to have the concept that it's normal for people to need time to get used to calling him "he" when he doesn't pass as a male.

If he read this, I expect he'd never speak to me again. As it is, he hasn't spoken to me apart from once since he assaulted me. It's been several weeks. And I still haven't had a proper apology or any understanding of how deeply his behaviour has affected me or any of us here.

Apart from that, he was trying to explain to me that I'm trans. Even telling me I should have surgery (a double mastectomy). Seriously, he would laugh sarcastically at me when I said I'm not trans, I don't want surgery or hormones. I'm just me and I'm okay with me.

He hates "grifters for the right" ie) trans people who speak out against the extreme gender theory. Eg) Buck Angel. I can't remember any of the other names, but I listened to Buck Angel and he seems perfectly reasonable to me.

[Saluki]

Reading about your daughter's behaviour and the abusive treatment she's exhibited whilst blaming you for her behaviour sounds exactly the same as what's been happening here.

I did the same with regards asking him to go to therapy to get some help with his extreme anger issues and his extreme anxiety around learning to interact healthily with people in the outside world. He refused, over and over again and kept explaining and explaining why the problem was me and how I triggered him.

Unless he figures out for himself that his behaviour here was completely unreasonable and abusive, unless he figures out that he's the one who needs to learn to deal with his expectations on others to behave how he wants them to...he won't change. He seems to think he can treat everyone like dirt, but they have to treat him like a precious, fragile little doll. No.

[Saluki]

The other thing is that he's got it into his head that if he doesn't get hormones and surgery, the only option is to commit suicide.

I told him that he should get therapy to cope with the waiting list. That was seen as transphobic.

Seriously, whoever has been writing these textbooks that make people think not having therapy to cope with waiting for hormones is transphobic should be struck off whatever register that allows them to put their sick academic drivel out there in the public domain and in educational institutions, because it's severely damaging young people.

[Chart]

I agree Saluki, there seems to be a wave of insanity sweeping the globe, especially the US. I think it mostly comes from just how dysregulated human nervous systems now are in this period of our "civilization". As a species we seem to have gotten extremely off-track regarding what life and existence is really supposed to mean. Shouldn't we be deepening our understanding of things around us, as opposed to violently insisting that the universe must change according to our internal confusion?

It's insanely hard to even break apart the dysfunction in order to even begin to comprehend it...