One man’s narcissism is another’s C-PTSD

[Phoebes]

I've noticed sometimes if I listen to videos on "what to look out for" or "red flags" and such, many of the traits of narcissists overlap with symptoms of C-PTSD. When I hear this, I start to spiral into fear that this is how people see me.

For instance, one person's red flag to look out for to know you're dealing with a narcissist is "emotional response"- lack of eye contact and intimacy. Someone looking around or lacking a deeper response.

From a C-PTSD perspective, I feel like I struggle with these things, and I'm very aware when I'm doing it. The "trying to give responses that sound good" is really a deep sense of threat or self+consciousness about struggles with eye contact. A high sense of anxiety.

I don't know if I'm explaining myself very well. I just start feeling like is this why I struggle to connect? I'm really a narcissist like my mom? Do people misread me as a narcissist? I can feel sometimes I struggle to connect and it's usually with people I actually admire or maybe idealize. People who are doing things I wish I could do.

Between narcissism, cptsd, borderline, autism, adhd I feel like it all runs together and I get overwhelmed and feel like I am misunderstood a lot (another N trait.)

[Kizzie]

I have a quick but important answer Phoebes. If you're on here reflecting on whether you are an N or not, you're not.  N's do not show up on a forum like this because they don't reflect on their behaviours, they've typically lost the capacity to do so. And they don't care like you do about being seen as an N or trying to change, it's just not in the traits of an N to do any of that. With CPTSD, however, we are constantly reflecting, are very concerned that we don't hurt anyone, want to recover, and so on. 

[Phoebes]

Thanks, Kizzie. I get that. I am constantly self-reflecting and wondering if I should apologize for this that and the other, or improve on connection and self esteem..I know my mom doesn't care and feels entitled to throw me under the bus as evidenced by the narrative.

I just wonder though if there is a difference in the eyes of the people I care about. I think it's possible they see me that way, in some cases I care about.

I think of all of my animals. How, if I am so lucky to see them again or even now just trying to tell them how sorry I am for ways I failed them. How I wish I could do things better for them. Then I think how my mom has made it clear she isn't sorry, and she actually did do cruel things to me (whereas I'm just thinking I'd have predicted the right way and time to help my dogs better). She's aggressively told me she's not sorry and has made up a whole story about me throwing me under the bus. I just can't fathom the cruelty. But, I guess I can come across as distant and struggle to connect with friends or potential partners. My mom just wears a mask and tricks them into believing she is someone she's not. I wonder do I inadvertently do that? I feel like a fraud most of the time. Ugh.

[Blueberry]

Phoebes, I don't tend to divide people up into narcissists or not. It's become kind of a buzz word and buzz words come and go. Probably you'll find in some of my posts that I've referred to narcy so-and-so, but I don't wonder about it so much. I do know that certain members of FOO think they have to walk on eggshells around me, whereas I feel I have to walk on eggshells around the whole of nuclear FOO. So a little pot-kettle-black going on with them.

I tend to think dysfunctional instead of narc.

I too am genuinely sorry for what I did to my pets in the past or for what I neglected to do in some cases, with time I changed my treatment of them, like I heated my apt better so they were warmer. Your M is not sorry for what she did to you, nor is mine sorry for what she did to me. There's always either an excuse or a denial - like the only child of hers she ever did any wrong to was B1. Totally wrong. Once she spent ages telling me how sorry she was for neglect towards a little pet of B2's, but when I finally pointed out it was a very long time ago and maybe time she forgave herself and if she wanted she could make a donation to a rescue centre for this kind of animal, she turned on me with "at least the pet had x" (even tho not y). All this moaning and groaning about her own neglect of said pet was just an attention-seeker, specially for me.

Coming across as distant and struggling to connect is a whole lot less than going out of your way to maliciously hurt your own child.

Is there a possible way to ask those you care about if they see you that way? I know that sounds a very hard question...

[Phoebes]

Thanks, Blueberry..I like just not thinking in terms of labels. Although at times they help me understand, but it's important not to get caught up in them for sure.

I think the only people I would feel comfortable asking would be those who I know don't see me that way, like life long best friends. My best friend usually says I'm way too hard on myself.

[Blueberry]

My best friend usually says I'm way too hard on myself.

Well, there you go!

fwiw I had friends who are no longer friends due to the way they eventually thought it was quite OK to support FOO against me and/or to also say things like it was high time I got over various aspects of cptsd that they found particularly annoying/incomprehensible. These were really good long-term friends, or so I thought. But I decided to leave them by the wayside.

btw a 'trait' is not enough to be diagnosed with Narcissistic PD. I know that with Borderline PD there are some symptoms similar to or same as cptsd or some very common BPD like self-harm that also exist for some of us with cptsd, but just self-harm on its own is not enough to say i have BPD!! Tho people have suggested it in the past. I don't have BPD. I'm using that as an example because I know more off the top of my head about BPD than about NPD. IN my country BPD is a common misdiagnosis for cptsd.

Pete Walker goes into the differences between narcissism and the Fight reaction (of the 4 Fs).
Patrick Teahan https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAFyxGsnqKc does NPD versus cptsd and childhood trauma - I haven't listened to it because it's no longer one of my issues, but I like Teahan in general.

Hope some of the above is helpful.

[dollyvee]

I can second bb on BPD being mistaken for CPTSD, histrionic as well. When I was first in therapy about 25 years ago, way before anyone even acknowledged CPTSD, it was labelling someone as BPD or histrionic. At least in my case.

I feel like I've struggled with what you're describing as well, and that people perhaps misread or mistrusted me because I mistrusted myself (well, because that's what I was taught to do!), and it kept a cycle perpetuating. I know it's still an issue for me and that I feel like I do things to manipulate people, or feel like when I'm open about how I'm feeling, or needing care, there's something in me that mistrusts it and likens it to manipulation. So, that's pretty difficult to form an earnest connection with someone right there, and I can understand how they might misread that. T and I are working on this, but yeah, I think I wondered for a long time if I was perhaps narcissistic too.

[Papa Coco]

I feel like responding to everyone on this thread with a simple nod that people like us who question our own motives are the people who care the most.

I have this belief that there is a narcissist and empath in each of us. The sizes are different from person to person, but the human brain is a narcissist while the human heart is empathically connected to everyone. What makes us all unique is where our dot lands on the scale between narcissist and empath.

Phoebes, to your question as to whether people are seeing you as a narcissist, naturally I can't know the answer to that, but I can say that I doubt it. I know people who are so badly broken from childhood that they don't even point their face toward me. They look down and around. It's obviously a sign of some type of fear, and I've readily recognized that they have this problem, but I've never felt myself wanting to see them as narcissists.

Quick Story: When we bought our house in 1989, a neighbor had a grown son who I would see from time to time passing the house in a car or walking. ONE day I met him up close. It felt like I was looking at a vampire. He made clear eye contact with me, but his eyes looked like there was nobody inside his head. He looked at me, but it felt like he was looking through me.  A few years later the neighborhood was shocked when he was arrested, tried and convicted of being a serial rapist with more than 25 women as his known victims. To me, that was a case of narcissism. He did look into my eyes, but I could feel that there was no connection between us at all.

Ultimately, eye contact is difficult for me too. For me, it has to do with not feeling like I have the right to look directly into the eyes of others. It's as if I believe that everyone's better than me and looking them in the eye is an insult to them.  People seem to think I'm making direct eye contact with them, but I've learned how to look at the bridge of every nose because if I look directly into their eyes, panic strikes me. Also, for some WEIRD reason, if I look at someone in the eyes, I start to yawn...and I can't stop until I stop looking into their eyes again.

[Phoebes]

Hello, friends, I so appreciate your taking the time to respond. I've been thinking so much about your responses and just hadn't had a chance to sit down "with friends" to respond. I'm happy I can do that today after a long week..maybe I'll ramble about that in my private journal.

Blueberry, I realized I didn't comment on your story about your mom going on and on about B2, and then when you gave a reasonable response supporting HER, she snapped back. That is suck a classic move showing who has the N-traits. I have experienced very similar with mine.

I have been revisiting Pete walker, and Patrick Teagan (I just call him Patrick lol) is one of my staples. Thank you for reminding me of this.

Dolly, i totally feel like people misread me because i am glitchy. I get anxious and don't represent myself well. And the cycle of blaming myself continues. I don't know if for instance my N-mom has any thoughts like this. But the last time I tried to speak openly about the subject, being way too vulnerable to her imo, she flipped out and got defensive so I backed far away from that topic, well and then went NC. I have not been diagnosed BPD, but I was listening to Dr. mark's channed Heal NPD...which got me thinking I relate to the backstory of NPD's. And my reasons for being out of whack. (His channel is more of an empathetic ear for the narcissists, so it's less of a supportive feel, but it got me wondering if that was me).  I think it's the narcissist's projection that ruined me and baffles me the most.

Papa Coco, thank so much for your response and sharing that. You helped snap me back into reality, and also reminded me that I too feel like everything is on a spectrum of sorts, and we all have traits of this and that. I think it helps in reminding ourselves we don't have that black and white thinking narcissists seem to have. I picture the "dot" shifting and changing with each interaction and thought, too..that helps. I probably think about my behavior TOO much and that of course concerns me. lol

Your creepy neighbor sounds above and beyond and gave me the chills. I know that direct stare, almost an angry stare of "the narcissist." I believe I have that built in look away or down response because of my mother's constant angry rage-full teeth clenched aggression toward me, and I just learned if I look her in the eye and defend myself in any way there is no one there to mop up the floor when she's done.

I tend to be worst with people "in authority" or even perceived "above" me status- a teacher, a pastor, an person living their life in a way that seems out of reach to me, like artists and musicians. Someone i know I am but struggle to be. and people who I would like to know or get to know. It feels useless and hopeless when it happens because I'm not that way to my closest friends..I know intellectually that "I am worthy" and that no one is really "above" me, but the automatic response and anxiety is real.

Maybe some of these YouTube channels don't get all of this quite right and I should be more selective...stick with Patrick and Pete

[Phoebes]

Narcissists ruin all their relationships and end up alone. I ruin all my relationships, or let them go, and end up alone. What's the difference? I wrote a friend and apology letter. I haven't sent it yet. In writing it I realize I never had any concept that I could have much affect on anyone. I tried to forget my insecurity and do an apology the right way, the way I wish I got. I didn't even mention the plethora of complaints I have, just the ways that I caused hurt and harm, and with no expectation of a response.

The thing is, even if she does accept, and we can slowly become friends again, I have no confidence that it will be the same. It's sad. After almost two years, I'm just now really grieving the friendship and feeling strongly about reconnecting. I realize I have had very little skills in a functional way in excited...some...friendships. I do have a couple that are functional I think..and a new friendship..

I think with this one, I was a little insecure. I always subconsciously felt she was better than me, and in hindsight I think she was trying to fix me...nevertheless I miss the good times and talks.

[WabiSabi]

(Seems I'm also part of the BPD diagnosis club.   I could never relate to it, and it was later dismissed.)

I am nodding along to what others are saying too. And as others have said, no N is going to ruminate, reflect, overthink and worry themselves sick THEN come to the conclusion THEY are the problem!

They make us feel 'wrong', and we worry if it's true. But their lazy narrative to excuse their poor parenting can kick rocks! 

I also can't stand eye contact. It makes me feel exposed. Everyone just thinks I'm shy!

Is it possible you just need a break? I mentally pinch myself black and blue all the time when overanalyzing relationships and social interactions. I don't think your average person is going to be doing that without a good reason. I also believe it's a symptom of CPTSD to have to explain yourself to others and find fault in yourself.

I don't know the backstory, but if it's not time-sensitive, is it helpful to focus on the past right now? You have other friendships to maintain, and it's great news you have a new friendship! That's exciting and positive! I don't know you, Phoebes, but it sounds like your friend is right, and you're being unnecessarily hard on yourself. Hope you can be kind to yourself today 

& I am not trying to give advice, but I very much relate to how you're feeling

[Phoebes]

Thank you, WabiSabi. It's helps to hear that you relate, and also thank you for the realization that I've twisted myself all in knots feeling solely responsible for "messing things up." I can acknowledge my part, but I get overwhelmed with expressions ing the things that bother ME. Because I don't see it in the moment, it's often in hindsight and then I feel like it's too late to bring up.

I am nodding along to what others are saying too. And as others have said, no N is going to ruminate, reflect, overthink and worry themselves sick THEN come to the conclusion THEY are the problem!

& I am not trying to give advice, but I very much relate to how you're feeling

Yes, totally. I think this symptom has gotten worse for me. It's like I can hardly interact with people anymore that I don't feel this way, and then feel deeply relieved when I'm alone again.

I'm working on taking a deep breath and remembering that many things have nothing to do with me. And even if they did- aka family ignoring my texts and calls- that's their perogative and ill just back away, right? I don't know the balance...did I say or do something wrong? Are they sick of my vibe? Are they believing NM's narratives or lies? Who knows. I guess a healthy person might not give a flip or think it's certainly not about any of that..

I think you're right, it stems back to always being gaslit into believing we were the wrong ones and having to over explain ourselves and still get in major trouble because you know, children aren't to be believed or right about anything. But in adulthood, that mode is so hard to break. Like I can intellectually tell myself ll of that is false but I still feel it in every fiber of my being.

I feel bombarded with so many crazy situations with various people all the time..I need to be able to shake them off and focus on something more pleasant, like art.

Thank you for the encouragement to be kind to myself. I need a day like that..

[NarcKiddo]

Your posts resonate, Phoebes. So do the replies.

I remember reading The Borderline Mother and ending up diagnosing myself as a full blown Hermit Narcissist with BPD. My therapist had fun talking me down from that one!

It is possible you display some traits that may be thought to be similar to those of narcissists. If you were raised by one you will surely at some stage have picked up "fleas" = check out the sister site Out Of The Fog toolbox information about this. And your protection mechanisms may come across "wrong" in your eyes. You cannot ever control what others are thinking but you can spot and try to deal with unhelpful ways of behaviour in yourself. It is hard and it takes time. As countless others have pointed out, the very fact you are worrying about this reveals that you are not a narc.

As for your lost friendship - I think it is very brave of you to have written a genuine apology, containing no reference to any of your issues and expecting no response.  I hope your friend will accept it and that the two of you can find a way to move forward in friendship. I am pretty sure it won't be the same again, Phoebes. You will both have learned things about yourselves and each other from this episode and that is a good thing. If it was exactly the same as before you would be running the risk of it rupturing again due to the same old behaviour patterns. So I would suggest that if you get an opportunity to revive the friendship you approach it with curiosity and kindness, both to your friend and to yourself. If your friend is not inclined to renew the connection at this time then concentrate on your other friendships. I am glad you have a new one.

[WabiSabi]

Thank you for the encouragement to be kind to myself. I need a day like that..

Phoebes, that's great! Hope you can cut yourself some slack, and have fun enjoying art 

What you said about this sense of responsibility is also really relatable. Learning to not always be the one doing the heavy lifting is something I'm working on.

I couldn't agree more with NarcKiddo about the 'fleas'. I feel I have a couple of narc traits, and they are something I'm trying to work through. I reason it would be strange to be in a house fire and not smell of smoke.

& NarcKiddo, I had to laugh at your self diagnosis. Very relatable 

[Phoebes]

Same here, NarcKiddo! The very first book I read the clued me in to any of this at all was "understanding the borderline mother." I read it straight through t..twice in a row! Blown away at the new perspective and clarity.

I have never had a lasting good therapist, I gave up on that but sure wish I had a good one, who lived with me..lol.

I definitely have some fleas. My mom always angrily called me "too sensitive" and I believed her. I believe now that yes, I was born a sensitive soul, and became "overly sensitive" from constant abuse and beratement. I'm still "too sensitive" to sound, light, aggression, anger, conflict, interruption, disturbing scenes, animal suffering, rejection... or maybe I'm just simply a sensitive soul as I originally was on top of never fully developing coping or relational skills necessary for long lasting relationships.