What is love?!

[Jazzy]

With where I am in my recovery journey right now, it has really made an impact on me of how important it has been to develop a respect and love for myself. I think it is critical for everyone to have that. I am a very different (much improved) person now that I have more love for myself.

Of course, it's not easy. I can't just tell someone "love yourself", and they say "okay, done, what next?" It was a really long and difficult process for me. Maybe it will be easier for some (or harder), but I think it's a journey that everyone needs to travel themselves. At least, for me, the real healing was found along the way.

I was thinking about what some of the difficulties are, and what might hinder other people from being able to complete, or maybe even start, this journey. The thing that was most obvious to me, is that maybe, like me, people might not really know what love is actually like. My parents certainly didn't show me love. My grandparents were a little bit better, but not much. So, what I learned about love was all wrong.

I thought we could share what we have found proper love to really be like, especially self-love.

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Here are some of the key points for me.

Love is forgiving and understanding, and patient. We all make mistakes, and I make a lot of big mistakes. Everything isn't magically better when I apologize, and I need to review and learn and grow when I make a mistake, so I don't keep doing wrong. That growth is what love focuses on. Sometimes it takes me multiple mistakes to learn a lesson, but by loving myself, I keep myself in a state where I can grow when I learn what I did wrong, instead of being overwhelmed by NSC. Focusing on that opportunity to grow helps me stay positive, which leads to self-respect instead of shame.

Love is respectful. It treats me well, no matter what. Even when ICr is rampaging out of control and I think that I don't deserve it, I still do. Loving and respectful actions towards myself helps me fight IC and get back (or maintain if IC is not too bad) a healthier mindset / mental state so that I be positive, and full of good, which I can then share with others.

Love is considerate. It knows everything I've been through, and it understands why my thoughts/feelings/reactions are the way that they are. Instead of judging myself and demanding I be perfect, it is important to have reasonable expectations, and remember that "Rome wasn't built in a day". Repeating this to myself helps me realize I don't need to be perfect right now. When I'm considerate of myself, then I can begin to work on proper, healthy relationships with others, where all parties are considerate of each other, and treat each other well, resulting in a positive impact on each other's lives. Eventually, this comes full circle, and that external positive impact will help me when I am struggling.

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There is a lot more, but this post is already very long, so I'll wrap it up here. I'm really looking forward to what other's have to say on the topic.

[rainydiary]

For me love also involves safety and acceptance of being as you are. 

I personally find the word "love" to be difficult.  I recently read something that talked about love as attachment (related to attachment theory).  For some reason I haven't fully explored that idea was helpful to me. 

[dreamriver]

I LOVE this Jazzy, I'm on a similar road myself.

Thank you!!!!

[Jazzy]

I totally agree Rainydiary, thank you! It's good to hear that the understanding of love as an attachment has been helpful for you. I haven't looked in to that much myself, but the idea of treating your(my)self like someone else there is an important attachment with feels very powerful. It's certainly something I want to look in to further.

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Dreamriver, if it is comfortable.

[Jazzy]

So, I'm not sure if I should share this or not, but I'm trying to fight my NSC, so I think I should.

Like rainydiary, I have a hard time with the word love. It's not bad when I'm thinking about self-love, or just typing here on my PC. If I actually try to talk about it vocally with someone though, that's much more difficult. It's almost impossible for me to say "I love you". There's just been so much hurt and pain and damage that's gone along with hearing "I love you". I know a lot better about what love is and is not now. Although, actually realizing it and feeling it, and making it a reality, is more challenging than just intellectual knowledge.

Thank you Raindiary for opening up and sharing this first. I'm sorry you have difficulty with it, but I'm glad that you've made an opportunity to help and connect with others, out of that difficulty. 

[dreamriver]

If I actually try to talk about it vocally with someone though, that's much more difficult. It's almost impossible for me to say "I love you". There's just been so much hurt and pain and damage that's gone along with hearing "I love you"

The warm hug is welcome Jazzy 

I had this realization these last couple years too. Save with my spouse it's been hard to say "I love you" to anyone else because I associate love with doubt, distrust, and pain, and wondering whether I really love the person (especially being forced to say it to older siblings who were abusive, bullies, or personality disordered). I will still say it back to a friend if they say it to me but it feels awkward and forced. Even if I do really love and appreciate them! I wonder if anyone else deals with this!

Then I also realized, I didn't hear much "I love yous" growing up, and when they were uttered it's like they were fake or had no meaning. I didn't feel loved or safe so how could that sentence be associated with safety? Every time "I love you" comes out of my mouth I say to myself "I should only say it if I mean it!" when I say it back too hastily, and have never wondered much why I think that way.

I remember the last year or so that I still had contact with my malignant narcissist sister, I would say "I love you" and it was like she had to squeeze it out if herself to say it back to me. And then at the very end before no contact, she wouldn't say it back to me at all.

You're fair and OK if you don't want to say it, or say it really only when you feel it. It's only fair you protect yourself and you protect the love you do give, because it is precious.

[woodsgnome]

This is a topic of huge intrigue, yet it's also always seemed irrelevant to me. Having little experience of knowing anything resembling love from the start (and not once from FOO), I still have a huge curiosity about it.

For all the usual reasons, I guess, I've been unable to fully relate to love as having any real function in my life. Despite my being a good 'feeler' with strong intuition, I can't feel love and actually -- knowingly and unconsciously -- resist it. Instead of a good vibe, love's proximity still seems dangerous.

I've tried to change this, which tells me the yearning for love never disappears. And yet, the other feeling of being entirely unwanted from life's start has permanently imprinted an impression of being unworthy of love. I'm tired of it; have given up on it.

While I don't feel up to anything remotely like self-love anymore, I do feel I've achieved a fair amount of self-acceptance. Sometimes I think that's great, other times wonder if it's just another coping strategy
to make it to the next day.

I read about self-love, am encouraged to its edge by my T; and still feel it's just one of those things meant for others, never for me. I dissociate a lot -- and one of the more noticeable (after the fact) dissociative topics is love. It's like an inner voice is yelling at me to "get outta here" whenever I hear the word, especially if it's in reference to my undeserving self.

Self-acceptance? Okay, seems I can get that far. Self-love is still out there, off in an untracked wilderness. I'm able to live, sure; but the love gap creates its own grand canyon. Or something ... 

Good thread, though. Perhaps I'll be able to learn a bit more reading through your own wise reflections on this. Thank you.

[CactusFlower]

Wow, so much to unpack for me here. I've just started on recovery, so it's still pretty hard to see myself as lovable, even by myself, most days. I have a few people I know I love and trust, but that's a super-short list. I'm able to say it easily to my BFF, but most other people, it just feels... superficial? awkward? slightly phony? The closest explanation I can think of is that whole "love languages" thing. I dunno if it's legit, but I came up as my love language being somewhere between doing stuff for people and just being around them. That was never enough for my controlling ex, who I would say had the love languages of saying it and touching. I can see I get mine from my Mom, as some our happiest moments were doing stuff together. (gardening, arts and crafts, etc) I'm working on trying to define what healthy love looks like, as compared to the subservient, sacrificing, fawn response I experienced it being.

[Jazzy]

Woodsgnome, I'm so sorry to hear that you feel not only unloved, but also unlovable. That is a horrible thing. I read a lot of frustration in your message, which is understandable.

It sounds to me, that you're not ready to love yourself, and it's okay if that's the case. I think it's good that you still find the topic intriguing. That tells me there is still an opportunity, once all of the issues standing in the way are resolved.

Before I was ready to love myself, I had to start respecting myself. Before I was ready to respect myself, I had to accept myself. I also had to come to terms with the fact that I was the one living my life, which actually is a life. Even though it didn't feel like it, I'm still a person, like everybody else.

Nobody has the authority to tell me what/how to think/feel/act/believe any more. These are my choices, because it is my life, and they affect me primarily. Like the saying goes "I reject your reality, and substitute my own." I had to (and still am) completely rebuild(ing) myself from what my FOO made me, in to what I want to be.

Because I had such a skewed view of myself (and much of reality), I couldn't just trust my judgment and change myself.  So, one thing I did, was I started writing down things that other people did that I respected, or at least thought they were a positive way to behave. After I had a bit of a list, I picked one thing, then tried to do that thing more often. Once I started getting the hang of that, I added another thing. It was a long and difficult change, but eventually I found myself behaving in a way that I liked, and that let me start to respect myself more.

I don't want to push you to love yourself, if you're not ready. It sounds like your T does that enough, and I don't think that is the best focus, if I dare say that. When I can't solve a problem, I've learned that I have a lot more success in finding a different approach. Just trying the same thing over and over doesn't work for me, no matter how badly I want it, and how much I try. Giving up doesn't work for me either, because then nothing gets accomplished. So, maybe you can eventually satisfy your curiosity in a healthy(ier) way by focusing your efforts differently.

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CactusFlower, it is a massive topic. Take your time and move at a healthy pace. I get what you mean about it feeling superficial and awkward. I've felt like that a lot too. My love language is very action-oriented as well, so it sounds legit enough to me! Sorry things went badly with your ex. I'm sure things will be better in the future when you are in a better place with the topic!

[woodsgnome]

Thanks, jazzy, for your reflections on this. You remind me there are possibilities for self-love to emerge.

I feel like I have the self-love tools around, but at times it's as if the toolbox is locked, and I don't know how this happens. I'm well aware of my latest trigger which pushed the lock shut again. I referred to it in another post, which described a recent stalking by a FOO member and which re-exposed a very raw and hurtful time in my life story.

When this happens (what I call an EU -- Emotional Upheaval -- starting with an EF like the stalking incident), the self-love reservoir automatically locks until it seems safe for me to come back to it again.

It's a bit of a paradox -- I want to be free and able to self-love, and then something happens to blow my receptive self shut again, as if the old pain of no self-love is better than the risk of accepting that old patterns can shift. At least in regards to staying open to self-love as something I can achieve.

It's still hard when old emotional wounds break through again. The fact that I can even think of picking up the broken pieces once more has been aided by your encouragement. So, thanks; may we each find ways to let the self-love surface and heal our brokenness.

Regarding the 'what is love' conundrum, I think intuitively we know what it is without heavy reliance on definition. Therefore when it goes missing, as in childhood abuse and neglect, it hurts even worse, as it happens at an age when we're not able to give it any logical reason to be. Self-love then seems to get raided by wily old self-critic, and then ... it all unravels.

[Pioneer]

I really appreciate this post, everyone's thoughts about what love is and the honesty that it's a difficult thing to grasp.

I think culture and media often misconstrue what love is and makes us think that love is something we must earn or a feeling that we have to attain. Like saying, if we only look good enough, perform well, buy certain things...that we will deserve to be loved. Or it is that "feeling" we had when we had a crush on someone when we were young, and that we have to keep feeling those feelings if we are to "stay in love". Those things are just exhausting and unattainable really.

I believe that love is more of an action. Jazzy mentioned some of these points already:
Love is choosing to be kind and patient, like trying our best to do self care even when we don't feel like we deserve it.
Love is choosing not to compare ourselves to the best in others and put ourselves down because we don't have it "that together". It's also not putting others down to make ourselves look better (many of us have experienced that type of twisted thinking from abusers).
Love is trying to remember that we can't control everything, so there isn't a good reason to hold on to bitterness. Love offers forgiveness.
Love looks for truth, it seeks to see past the deception and lies and reminds us that we are beautiful and valuable.
And again, love is patient when we don't do all those things well - it's the quiet resolve to try again.

Thanks for sharing everyone 

[Kizzie]

Great thread! 

Here's a bit of a brain twister my T and I are working on at the moment.  Love is loving the part of you that isn't exactly lovable (impatient, critical, judgemental, angry, ...towards self and others).  Together we've sorted out that I have been trying to get rid of this part and it's not going anywhere because it IS a needed part of me.  Hunh.

We talk about mindfulness (becoming aware of those parts in a non-judgmental way) versus resisting them (i.e., because "What you resist persists"), and learning to love what  it has done and will continue to do when more integrated into the whole of my self. Accepting it and integrating it turns the volume down but leaves it there to use when I need to protect myself, just in a more regulated way.

So love is loving your whole self not just certain parts I guess and that's the point I'm at in therapy.

And if we are loving toward and of ourselves we can more easily understand and accept that other people we are in a relationship with have protective parts that we may bump into on occasion and then we can work through things in a regulated way vs dropping into flight, fight, freeze or fawn.   

[Jazzy]

Some great stuff here, thank you everyone!

Woodsgnome, I'm sorry to hear you went through that situation where you were being stalked. That must have felt dangerous and scary, no wonder you locked things away again. It sounds really horrible! I hope you're doing a bit better now, and that you can begin to feel safe again.

You touched on something here, that I think is important. This goes against "standard" opinions about healing, but it was helpful for me. I really needed to cut everyone out of my life who was even slightly hurtful (whether it was their fault or not) in order for me to be able to heal properly. Most people saw this as a bad thing (isolating), and kept telling me I was wrong, but it was what I had to do. I was just so broken, I couldn't heal properly with that kind of influence.

From what I read in your other post, it sounds like you've been trying to keep these people, at least some of them, at a distance, but they are making it very difficult for you. I'm sorry you are forced to deal with this again, and the hurt it has caused you. I hope you find a way through, and somehow stop this kind of thing from repeating and continuing to damage you. Keep fighting the good fight!