Notes from a talk by Daniel Shaw entitled 'Traumatic Narcissism'.

[Hope67]

I can't remember which conference this was from, but it's a talk by Daniel Shaw and the title is 'Traumatic Narcissism' and I listened to it on 3rd April 2023 and have written up my notes - I'm mainly wanting to keep the notes somewhere safe, and will be tearing up my paper notes, but if anyone finds them helpful/interesting, that's a bonus!

Traumatic Narcissism.

Dev environment - shaming and humiliation - depressing
Traumatising narcissist.  (delusion of omnipotence) (shamelessness)

Perfectly infallable.  Infinitely entitled.  No need to change (in their view)

Self-alienation - a term by Janina Fisher.  Traumatised by that kind of traumatising narcissist.
Relational system of subjugation.  Needs other people to hold their sense of humiliation.

Narcissist - delusional and dissociated belief that they do not need anyone.  Omnipotent.  Need the other to be subjugated and needy.
Coercive control.
Likely to become psychotic if their needs to be omnipotent are not fed.

Parent narcissist - Effects on the children.
Private world very different from public world.
World views their family as priviledged.
But private world - trauma and abuse.
Envious and resentful of their child.
Dependability of child - viewed as insulting to the parent.
Very difficult parent to survive.

Mentioned a film called 'The Celebration' which is a Danish film, and a good example of some of these things/themes.

Parent puts them in a double bind.
If too independent or too dependent.  Parent reacts to both of these things negatively.

However successful, they never quite meet their parents' expectations.

How to know if a parent is a narcissist.

Parents can trap their children financially - holding all the purse strings.

Behaviours. 
Relational patterns.
Work through and understand how they were traumatised.

Understand development of parents' behaviour.
Helps.

Relationship patterns and behaviours.
Intimidation, belittling and humiliation.
Seduction.
Depleted and exhausted.

Jessica Chastain wrote a book called 'The Bonds of Love'

Daniel Shaw comments that their are similar dynamics in cults.
Crazy making.

Narcissistic parent manipulates the child to ensure you attend to their needs.
24-7 on call to fulfill their need to sustain their need for omnipotence.

Free? Independent?
No you misunderstood me.
You can never win.
Narcissist is always right.

Therapy - help person liberate themselves.
Enter their own life and live own life with sense of purpose. 
Stop obsessing about how the narcissist is doing.

Daniel Shaw helps people
- children of narcissists
- followers of cult

Enslavement.
Talked about 'The Vow' - recruiting slaves.
De-humanisation and enslavement.

Eric Fromm's work - escape following World War II.
Malignant naricssism in heart of man.
Nationalistic narcissism.

Kind of grooming.
Groomed to cater for the needs of the other at the expense of their own.

Ronald Fairburn - basic need to be loved in their own right, and love parents and feel it's valued.
Traumatic if love is dismissed/de-valued by parent.

Self-alienation - division within self. Self punitive. Vulnerable - longing to give love.
Identify parts internally.
How do they conflict?
Help resolve internal conflicts.

Self-compassion - healing.
Doesn't come easily to traumatised people.

Integrating repressed or disowned parts.

Practical way to handle narcissistic parent in adulthood.
Variety of ways - difficulty re: boundaries.  But boundaries are necessary.  Grief process - to grieve what isn't possible.

Mentioned Prince Harry's Memoir book 'Spare'.  Mentioned that Ronald Regan's daughter did a tell-all book, but had said she wished she'd been silent and waited.  Regretted it.

Need to integrate hurt, trauma etc = complicated.
Daniel Shaw feels that a lot of advice online = simplistic.
No quick fix.
Poignant struggle.
Humanity of perpetrator.

************
The above are my notes from listening to the talk by Daniel Shaw about 'Traumatic Narcissism'. 
Hope 

[Moondance]

 

Thank you for sharing  your notes Hope.

Very insightful for me

[Kizzie]

Wow, just wow.  I've read one of Daniel Shaw's books about N and have his newest book but with the news of my NM's terminal diagnosis I've been unable to pick it up and read it.

It is a crazy making disorder that wrecks utter havoc on those around the N.  More later as supper just dinged but tks for the notes Hope.

[NarcKiddo]

Thank you for this.

Can you remember anything more specific about what was said about Prince Harry's memoir 'Spare'? I have read it because, although I don't much care for him and his behaviour, I became angry at the media witch hunt and selective reporting of extracts which made him look bad. So I thought I should at least read the book for myself and I found it interesting.

[Kizzie]

I think the words "crazy making' best describe my experience of N abuse growing up. In particular it was because our private world was so different than our public one.  I've said many times here before that my M was a stealth or covert N and did her level best to be the wonderful mother, sister, aunt, wife, etc., in public so that people saw/see her as wonderful, but behind closed doors there was so much anger, manipulation, FOG, gaslighting...  It's what makes dealing with her terminal cancer and coming death and funeral so fraught for me.  I know her much differently than others do and even my NB, although he knows she was abusive I'm estranged from so we can't seek solace from one another.

I do agree that trying to understand how the N got to be the way they are does help somewhat.  It's trauma just like us only worse usually from my understanding.  It makes it less personal in a way, but still really difficult because we their children lose so much.

PS - I'd be interested to hear what was said about Prince Harry too.

[Hope67]

Hi NarcKiddo & Kizzie,
I think that mention of Prince Harry's memoir 'Spare' was brief, in that Daniel Shaw said that he was concerned for Prince Harry writing about everything, and straight away then mentioned the regrets that Ronald Regan's daughter had had after the event of writing her own recollections regarding her relationship with her father.  I think he was suggesting that it's such a complex issue, with so many layers, that people might regret writing about it 'too soon' or without sufficient support etc.  But maybe that's my thoughts about it, rather than what Daniel actually said.  I just don't remember him saying much about Harry's book except - something like - 'I've got concerns for Prince Harry' and then quickly going onto mention how Ronald Regan's daughter had regretted her decision to write.  Personally, I think that Prince Harry might have had some therapy and therefore might have had support in going forward with his decision to write, but I don't know really.

I sometimes wonder if Prince Harry might be a member of Out of the Storm, as I think he'd benefit from the support here.  I feel for his situation - he's been through a lot of trauma (I think), and it must be awful to have the media writing so many things and taking things out of context etc.  I've not read his book 'Spare' but I hope to do so sometime - I might borrow it from my library.  I read a book about Princess Diana in the past, which was interesting.  NarcKiddo, glad you found the book about Harry to be interesting. 

Kizzie - sending you a hug for all that you're going through regarding your M's stuff - it is indeed 'crazy making' - such a good term and description - very apt I think.   

Hope 

[NarcKiddo]

Thank you, Hope.

Harry has had a lot of therapy (according to his book) but whether that extends to the writing of the book I don't know.

I also feel for his situation, and having read his book I feel much more for him on a human level than I did before. I don't think writing the book was necessarily a wise idea and I suspect it may not have helped him at all. The media has taken a few items out of proper context in order to sensationalise them. An ex-army friend of mine, for example, was very angry that he had said how many Taliban he killed. He had only seen the media reports which had Harry triumphing in the kills. That is not actually how it comes across when you read the book.

The book is not a particularly riveting read but the ghost writer has done quite well in conveying some of Harry's emotions (as far as one can tell). I completely identify with a lot of his concerns and ways of thinking. It seems quite clear to me that his upbringing was emotionally traumatic for him even before the obvious trauma of losing his mother.

[Bermuda]

Reading this post made my heart jump into my throat.

There are just so many senseless things that become easier to make sense of when they are seen grouped and stacked this way.