Shame

[Rain]

Helped me, Sandals.   Thanks!   

[keepfighting]

So, I don't feel I'm denying my shame - it's with me at every moment. Distracting myself or avoiding it is not really an option, since it won't let me go anyway. Talking about it is no problem for me, I'll discuss my shame with anyone - after all, it's the dominant part of who I am. (Not that talking about it brings relief in any way.)

This is what makes me believe we're talking at cross purposes here: I do believe that when you say 'shame' might actually be talking about your 'trauma'.

An integral part of shame is that it is a feeling about something you do not want to discuss, ever, not even in t, in fact not even admit it to yourself. It's a feeling that makes you want to hide away, makes you want to cringe and be reduced to a size where it's possible for you to go paragliding under your living room carpet....

In contrast, 'trauma' is the (family) secret that feelings of fear, obligation and guilt (maybe shame as well) have forced you to keep hidden for so long. Usually, after the lid of Pandora's box on the trauma is opened (which can be an incredibly long and painful process before a person is even prepared to spill the first beans. In my case, I was 27 before I could face opening the lid a little...), it can't be shut again and talking about your trauma becomes easier and easier.

Once I started talking about my trauma, I could talk about little else and discussed it with basically anyone. My T explained to me that that was a normal part of the recovery and basically an attempt to find recognition for my trauma. I no longer do that - I hardly ever feel the need to talk about my trauma anymore - though I have no problems answering questions about it if someone's interested to know. (Taken me years to get to that point; that T was in 2001)

My feelings of shame, on the other hand, are still in place. I still remember when after the first three sessions in T my T asked me about my anger outbursts. I wanted to die! What gave me away??? I thought I had hidden my darker side so well in our talks... (she explained to me, that those anger outbursts are a normal part of PTSD with which I was diagnosed at the time and that's how she knew --- I still wanted to die of shame ...).

I hide my feelings of shame, of inadequacy, of not deserving to even exist, by being extra 'perfect', being self sufficient, never asking for help, pretending to be 'fine' at all times. I am afraid to admit them even to myself. It's a feeling that if I ever admit to them, I lose my right to exist, so I run in demented circles to prove to myself and 'the world' that I am perfect enough to have a right to be...

I don't know how to express this properly. I am just thinking that maybe it's more a question of semantics why you "feel like you're missing something that everybody else seems to understand."  I don't think that you're any less competent in understanding the books and/or talks than anybody else, so that's why I thought that maybe you identify a different feeling/thing with the word 'shame'? 

Maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree entirely here - based on my own experiences in being able to talk about my trauma but not my shame. If so, I do apologize. I do not mean to offend you or preach to you or anything. 

[zazu]

Rain, Sandals - thanks for your insight. I thought about it and realized that I did blame the child I once was. Blamed her quite harshly, in fact. It brought up some strong feelings of guilt for betraying my own inner child like that, as well as some anger at her still for not having been a better kid, or handling things in a more mature way. But as sandals said, we were innocent - how could any of us even known how to handle these things? We only knew what we were taught back then. So that will need to be worked through. I had never realized these underlying feelings before, so at least it's conscious now.
Thanks for that. 

I thought also of my cousin, whose situation was far worse than mine (abusive mother and violent psychopath step-father) and the way she handled these things. She became so sweet. A caretaker, even as a child. She developed this sweetness as a defense, I suppose. She wasn't manipulative, but it must have a defense to appease the abusers. But me, I didn't become sweet - I became withdrawn and taciturn, wanted to be left alone to shut out my FOO's constant invasiveness. So, not a pleasant or fun child to be around at family gatherings. Tonight I realized I resented my child-self for not becoming more sweet and agreeable, like cousin did.

When I got older though, I became excessively sweet and eager to please. That may have been even worse for my mental health than being withdrawn and taciturn, actually.

Keepfighting - I can understand how it might seem that way re: shame vs trauma, and you do make good points. But it really is my cringing humiliation, "not good enough" feelings and self-loathing I will talk about, as well as bad behavior that's plain embarrassing. I'll talk about the trauma as well, though, like you, not as much as I used to. It likely had something to do with being raised as a scapegoat - I was supposed to wear my humiliation and worthlessness on my sleeve. It was the only thing that would possibly keep mother's attacks at bay for a while. Don't let NMom catch you having any self-esteem! Naturally, this trait led to some very unpleasant things happening as a teen and young adult - a young woman who is open about her self-loathing and shame is a target for predators.

It was only after suffering some of these nasty things and reaching a breaking point that I began to be more careful about with whom I shared these things, so really, technically, I won't share it with "everybody". But, it is something that's difficult to hide. I really just became more adept at shutting people out.

Thanks a lot for your input, Keepfighting. 

[Sandals]

Zazu - Me, too, on the blame. Me, too.   It's a hard one to accept.

My T has talked to me about the Johari window lately as these things begin to emerge.



These understandings are now moving from the bottom right quadrant (unknown) to the top right...potentially the top left, as we talk about them together. This needs to happen for healing to take place.

I think that where I struggle is in acceptance. Accepting that these things happened so that I can restore the blame to those who are responsible. I have fought against this for years (and my entire family system fights against it) so it's not an easy step to take. But often the hardest steps are the most worthwhile.

I would say I was more like your cousin in terms of sweetness. It didn't matter. I remember my NM saying to me even when I was older (I think after parent-teacher interviews) that "Everyone says you're such a nice girl, but you're not nice to ME."    So please don't blame your unconscious defence system for how it manifested.

It feels to me like you're taking lots of big steps towards healing, zazu, and it's inspirational. Keep being honest with yourself and together we'll conquer the shame. 

[Sandals]

Zazu - one additional thought. Now that you've done the work to understand the blame, see if you can identify some of those things that you've made up about yourself. That will help you identify your truths and help with healing.

e.g. (Just making up based on your post, not sure if it rings true for you)
Made up: I'm not "sweet" enough or "good" enough to be loved
Truth: I am loveable, just the way I am

It may be harder for you to identify the truths. I'm happy to help you with that, if  you can share the made-up parts.

[Badmemories]

@ Sandal... Hi all!

So, interesting I was studying the Jahari window earlier this week!

The blind side, left lower quadrant, is the one that other see in us that we don't see. Do You think this is the window that predators see that we don't see? The codependency, fix-it syndrom,  and the victimization that has been done to us? The think that makes us a target for child molesters, Narcissists, bullies, etc?

It might be the one who helps Us to heal also IF the T, can see this side, those hurts that we have buried?

Keep on keeping on!  

[zazu]

Thank you for the information, Sandals, and your help. I'd never heard of the Johari Window before. It makes sense that moving things from the unknown to the known would be helpful. To make these things conscious and come to some sort of acceptance. It is hard, isn't it. 
Not only the emotional pain that belongs to us, but the toxic shame that shouldn't have.

I thought about this a lot today and there was a lot of pushback from (what I suspect was) my inner critic. Became quite exhausted and fell asleep. Woke up still exhausted. So much of the shame, fear and anxiety are tied together. This constant feeling of "Something bad is going to happen, and I deserve it cos I'm a bad person". That's been the thought pattern underlying my life the last 40 years and I'm sooo tired of it. The idea that it's unfixable, some intrinsic trait of "badness", but it's not, I know in my heart where it came from and that it must be fixable - this can't be what life was meant to be - not when the actual abuser is dancing about, cheerful and worry-free.  I'm carrying the burden instead, and that can't be right! Not for any of us.

I'm going to think about the the made-up beliefs. It may be a little difficult because they might be masquerading as truth at the moment. Thanks again for your help and compassion.

Badmemories - I believe you are correct about the predators. A good T can also see those qualities, and more. Had an excellent T once who could pull out hidden meanings that I never could have seen until afterward - then it was obvious. But on my own, I was blind to it. I think it requires a high amount of empathy as well as good training. 

[Rain]

I have to get back to work, but I wanted to check in and see how you are doing, zazu.   A    for you.

You DESERVE to be caring to yourself.   We care about you ...care about yourself too. 

[anosognosia]

The old "gracious, if my own parents could not even love me, then who can?" 

^ Yes. Yes yes yes. This quote has governed my life and whenever a good romantic partner is straight forward kind and nice to me, I sabotage that so quickly in a backlash, as surely I have to continue to live under the "unloveable" label!!!

[Whobuddy]

Thank you bheart for the article. Here is a quote from it that struck me:

Depression is so inherent in childhood trauma it's as natural to us as breathing.
What comes to mind for me is the feeling of being "unlovable," and that is the seed of shame. The feelings of the parent, whether expressly communicated or intuited by the child, become internalized and automatic. And the state of being alone and powerless is so pervasive we don't even know how they shape our lives — even our treatment.

I remember feeling horrified by people who would want to hear "your most embarrassing moment" stories. The first time I heard that all I could think was that there was no way to rank my embarrassing moments as 'most' or 'least'. Almost all my memories have a large degree of shame attached.

[marycontrary]

yay guys keep this beautiful thread going!!!

[Sandals]

Just popping back in here to recommend "Healing the Shame that Binds You" by John Bradshaw. Super book to discuss shame (TW - a few examples really caused some powerful flashbacks) and also good exercises to heal.

[rtfm]

I remember feeling horrified by people who would want to hear "your most embarrassing moment" stories. The first time I heard that all I could think was that there was no way to rank my embarrassing moments as 'most' or 'least'. Almost all my memories have a large degree of shame attached.

Wow. Going back through this thread because the first pass through was too much to digest - so much in here speaks so strongly to me. 

zazu, I hope you're doing OK. 

I realised something was unbelievably wrong with my life when I would routinely get hit with floating shame and crippling guilt, and the intensity and frequency increased dramatically when I was at peace or happy.  Crossing a certain bridge on foot was guaranteed to bring strong feelings of serenity, gratitude, happiness...and self loathing, hatred, sickness, floating guilt and shame.  Couldn't tell you why, the bridge was new in my life and not tied to any trauma.  I can just so relate to your "innate badness" idea, the shame that isn't fixed on any one thing. 

And to Whobuddy's point, all of my memories have shame, guilt, a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach, that unpleasant feeling that you're about to get in trouble.  Every single memory I have (which aren't that many) before I was 16 feel like that. 

In a way I think the free-floating shame is an emotional flashback; I know that for me, the same coping techniques helped me get through the episodes better, and maybe in turn that helped me heal some, enough to gain some different perspective on the shame itself.  I'm not sure how exactly it all works together, or why, but I do know my attacks are much less frequent these days.  So for whatever that's worth, it can get better.  Hang in there. 

[Indigochild]

hellooo

I chose to read this thread after feeling intense shame two days ago.
I found it incredibly insightful. You are all very intelligent beings.
The bit about how your always waiting to find out what you did wrong- totally relate to that.

And about how you feel very when you first start mulling shame over.
I had no idea why at the time- i not long ago read a book called When you and your mother cant be friends, and in it it talked about the Cypher child, the name they gave to the child who was quiet and who gave up on expecting love from their parents, and after reading it, for a while, i felt ...ashaimed...weird...not good enough (as usual) but i was more aware of these feelings and i felt like everyone could see it, a feeling i have often.
So i guess it is normal when dealing into *shame*, you do feel raw. The book triggered me and I had no words to describe it.

alovelycreature, i always think that if someone broke into my phone or laptop, they'd think i was crazy and really weird. All my personal stuff is on there- realisations written in note pad.

Reading all this also explains why last year, the shame i didnt feel as much, because i was very much numb to everything. Im still numb, but the shame is back a lot. Sometimes i have to get the guts up to leave the house, or go to the shop, i feel afraid to talking to neighbours so i listen at the front door to see if anyone is outside. I feel like everyone can see who shaimful and worthless I am. Other times, i feel i cover it well.  Not sure why its more prominent sometimes and not others but always feel it.

[spryte]

I'm not sure if Zazu will come back to check this thread, but in the interest of contributing for other readers, I had some thoughts on things that struck me while reading.

"I'm afraid of the truth." (I'll write as if I were speaking to zazu)

Through the things you wrote, I can see that you were having a very difficult time processing your anger at your Inner Kid. Anger with yourself. There was so much personal responsibility in your words (which I am very familiar with). When we are taught by our abusers that our abuse is our fault, we naturally learn to take responsibility for everything...which I think just feeds the shame. EVERYTHING is our fault. The abuse. Our disordered ways of existing because of the abuse (depression, anxiety, relationship issues, addictions), other people's feelings, other people treating us like crap as we grow into adulthood and find ourselves in dysfunctional relationships...everything feeds the shame. I think that emotional abandonment is definitely a facet of the beginning of the shame, but I feel it's too overly simplistic to state that it's the core.

There are actually two components to emotional abandonment, I think. One is passive, and that's emotional neglect. The other is active, and that's emotional, physical, sexual abuse. Dr. Jonice Webb talks about the differences between emotional neglect, and active abuse. EN can exist without active abuse, active abuse cannot exist without EN.

In either situation, for most children, our only option for processing what's going on is to take it on ourselves. It's our fault. It's not within our understanding to recognize that there is something wrong with our parents, and so there must be something wrong with us. But, when you pair EN with active abuse, when you are actually taught that you are the cause of all the pain in the world (your world - your parents) there's an additional layer of reinforcement of "you are a bad person" "you don't belong" "you don't deserve to exist".

For YEARS I took it all on myself. I downplayed the difficulty of my childhood, I made excuses for my mother, I took responsibility for every single mistake I ever made even though the great majority of them were directly related to my poor coping skills out in the real world.

The "Truth" that can be terrifying, absolutely terrifying...if not intellectually but to your inner kid...is that it wasn't their fault. That all along, there was something wrong with the parents. It's the truth that we were not able to process then. And once we start processing it now, it becomes terrifying because...taking responsiblity for all of that shame is what we DO. Like soldiers, that's just the burden that we were taught to carry. Letting it go, recognizing that it's not ours - well, that leaves us raw, and vulnerable, and "Wow...you mean, it wasn't me this whole time? It was YOU?"

There's a whole host of implications that comes with recognizing where the blame lies. "How could this have happened? How could no one see? How you this human being who was supposed to love and protect me, do this to me? If it's not me, if I'm not broken, then what does that mean? How do I fix this?" It goes on and on and all of those questions are new and scary and way harder to sit with than our old standby of "It's me, I'm just worthless." It might be a hurtful standby, but it's a comfortable one. Much more comfortable than this entirely new paradigm.

I'd long since accepted that I was just a * that wouldn't amount to much. Accepting the truth was hard hard hard.