Grieving

[Butterfly]

From another post I thought it might be good to break off on the subject of grief rather than hijack that conversation. He's the original post link:
http://outofthefog.net/C-PTSD/forum/index.php?topic=70.msg791#msg791
Hope it's ok with Katz I started this new thrad from your post.

And the article in the post:
http://www.pete-walker.com/pdf/GrievingAndComplexPTSD.pdf

Soul ache is considerably harder to assign to the losses of childhood, yet those who take the grieving journey described below come to know unquestionably that the core of their soul ache and psychological suffering is in the unworked through losses of growing up with abandoning parents. These losses must be grieved until the individual really get that her parents were not her allies. She needs to grieve until she stops blaming herself for their abuse and/or neglect...until she fully realizes that their execrable parenting caused her posttraumatic stress. She needs to grieve until she understands how her learned habit of automatic self-abandonment is a reenactment of their abject failure to be there for her.

I'm not sure and I'm still processing the article in my mind but this may be why I have difficulty with grieving my childhood. 'Really getting my parents aren't my allies' and 'stop blaming myself for their abuse' if that's the final states to the grieving process then I'm there so maybe that's why there's no need for me to "try" to grieve. The very thought of grieving feels so contrived and forced for me right now.

It was sudden and swift when I came OOTF but it was a journey begun 30+ years ago so maybe that's why it just seems sudden. Last year the lightbulb went off and I think the 30+ year journey was like a puzzle where all the pieces suddenly snapped into place. The day I read about engulfing narcissistic mothers and how the child is an extension of herself and not a separate being was the day I curled up in a ball and slow burning tears just flowed without much sound or fanfare. That was my grief and I think for me that was it, the moment, the grieving was over.

[Butterfly]

Bear with me while I process . . .

fear - the death of feeling safe...shame - the death of feeling worthy...depression - the death of feeling fully alive.

These are the deaths we must grieve.

Loose quote: 'The ICr is a hinderance to effective grieving and those punished for emoting may experience grieving as exacerbating their grieving.'
My punishment for emoting was to be by myself until I could control myself. So then on the one hand I was being taught to stuff feelings down, but on the other hand maybe I was learning how to rely on myself and is why I tend to be independent. And it's shouldn't be a wonder to uPDm that I no longer seek her out for emotional soothing since from childhood that was forbidden and I never did get what I needed anyway even as an adult. Why I even bothered as an adult is a wonder to me now!

[spryte]

The description that the article gave for grieving doesn't match my idea of grieving at all. I do get the soul ache. I have had that ache around my heart for as long as I could remember. For a while, I'd just accepted it's existence and the fact that I was probably going to feel that ache until I died. It was an emptyness...indeed caused by my parents, but only partially by their abandonment.

I tried to fill that "hole" with all kinds of things, food, drugs, material things, relationships...none of it ever made it any better...or, it would fill it up for a while but after a little bit...like a bucket with holes in the bottom, it would just leak out and I'd be left empty again. Somehow, a little voice inside me kept telling me that it was related more to self-esteem than anything else. That hole was about all of the love, regard, and nurturing that I didn't get.

I mentioned in another thread how Dr. Webb at this website http://www.emotionalneglect.com/ talks about how the results of active abuse, and neglect abuse (things done TO us vs. things NOT done to us) are different. For me, that soul ache came directly from all the good things I DIDN'T get as a child. It hasn't been until lately, when I've actively started addressing my self-esteem issues that I've started to feel the holes in my bucket being plugged...and I've been working on filling it myself little by little.

But, like you...I'm not resonating with the grieving process the way the person in the article is talking about. I already get that my parents weren't my allies, and I long since stopped blaming myself for their actions. That doesn't mean that I have grieved. For me, grief is about loss. First, I had to get to a point where I could even feel my feelings again. I'm only just barely there. And now, I'm contemplating all the things that I will eventually, soon, need to grieve. I need to grieve the loss of what should have been a healthy mother and daughter relationship. I need to grieve the loss of all the relationships that came after that that were affected by all my emotional issues. I need to grieve the loss of the opportunities that have passed me by because of my c-ptsd. I need to grieve the fact that I will never have a child of my own because of it. And...well...there's a pretty hefty list.

Maybe there are things that you lost because of what happened to you, or maybe not lost...but just never had in the first place, that you need to grieve that wouldn't feel so contrived and forced. What does grieving look like to you? I might need to cry about it, but I don't know if I'll be able to. I may create a ritual...one in which I write in a notebook about the things I want to grieve, and have a night with a few trusted friends where I talk about them, and then burn the book in a fire...ok...the idea of talking about that stuff in front of even trusted friends kind of makes me want to puke, so maybe just a private affair - maybe with my boyfriend...but maybe there's something that you could do that would feel like an intentional letting go of that stuff...if you decide that you have stuff that needs to be grieved.

Also:
"My punishment for emoting was to be by myself until I could control myself. So then on the one hand I was being taught to stuff feelings down, but on the other hand maybe I was learning how to rely on myself and is why I tend to be independent."


When I read that it sparked a thought.

Have you come across anything that talks about attachment styles? I don't have any books or websites to recommend, I learned a bit about it reading here and there, but kids who have emotionally neglectful parents (the way that narc parents usually are) often end up with avoidant attachment styles. My boyfriend has avoidant attachment. Those kids grow up to be independent and self-sufficient to the nth degree. Do you notice yourself very self-sufficient in your other relationships? Is it hard for you to ask for help, even when you should?

[pam]

I am in the middle of the chapter in Walker's book on Grieving and I can't even get through it. I keep crying. I am only now able to see, and start feeling anything about the neglect I experienced in childhood (partly because I have only focused on the "easier to see and prove to people that I was mistreated" physical abuse).

I can't even believe how horrible I felt/am feeling in EFs about all the things that no one did with me. No wonder it's been repressed for so long.

Spryte, I have read some of your posts today and can relate to a lot of what you say and feel. I think I need to grieve for many of the same things you mentioned....but who wants to do that? It's going to be * I think.

Also I have no one to do it with because I don't trust anyone (new insight of mine). And yeah, I'd rather almost die than ask someone for help. I am very stubborn about that. But now i know why--it's because I was hurt so bad in the past that I really can't trust, depend on, relay on, anyone for the simplest thing now.   

PS. Chapter 5 which is called "What If I Wasn't Hit?" really affected me. I WAS hit, but I couldn't believe how much I related to that chapter. It opened my eyes to the fact that I am really messed up from emotional neglect. And that I need to focus on that instead of forgetting about it or sweeping it under the rug as if it didn't mean anything. And now the chapter on Grieving is getting to me too.

[spryte]

Pam - I'm really, really sorry that you have to go through this. All those new realizations, and the feelings that come with them...can be really really hard to handle. Please be extra kind to yourself during this time.

Also...sometimes it's wiser not to just, jump into this stuff without creating some kind of framework. I had a really strong emotional reaction to coming to this forum, reading stories that all sounded so similar to mine, and because, paradoxically, I was emotionally healthier than I ever have been, to be able to actually start connecting with stuff emotionally in a way that I had not before.

We don't want to re-traumatize ourselves. Grieving is important, but so is maintaining our sense of safety, and being able to nurture ourselves through these phases.

I only read the first few chapters of "The Courage to Heal" before my brain went "Newp!" and I got distracted...but one of the things that it stressed was that in beginning these processes, we also create a structure of safety. Some of the things they recommended was finding someone we DO trust that we can put on speed dial...this might not even be someone who you want to talk to about what you're feeling...maybe it's just someone who can come over and eat ice cream and watch cartoons with you after you have a really hard afternoon with this stuff...(Ok, that's my lifeline , but hopefully you get the example.)

Some of the things that I'm going to do is to create sort of a ritual around reading this stuff. A favorite tea or coffee to drink, maybe a specific comfy spot in the house to read, and time set aside just for that so that I can properly process emotions. I also just purchased a set of prayer beads which will help me ground myself in the "here and now" which I'm hoping will help with the "being sucked back into the past" feelings that I get whenever I read about this stuff and my brain starts working on it.

I was hit too...but definitely not as much, and with not as much lasting impact as the emotional abuse and emotional neglect.

[Butterfly]

Not much time for a suitable reply and need to come back and review posts more in depth but wanted to at least get these thoughts out.

Spryte, I have the same loss list including forsaken having children and had to grieve both what was done to me and what wasn't done for me.

In the past year I feel I've faced and grieved the loss. With literal death I've always been deep in my feelings and grieve my losses heavily, in private, but rather quickly. Loss of several very close relatives and dear friends has been part of my life since very young childhood.

Although the possibility does exist perhaps my swift and deep grief is an illusion and I'm not dealing at all but it feels like I have. Is the fact I have EF at all an indication I still have to grieve, maybe but Walker says we need to accept we will always have the possibility of EF but need to get to thriving with an occasional EF or else wind up back surviving mode and full regression.

Creating a ritual to let go sounds like a great idea. I've thought of trying to create a ritual to let it go but don't feel I have anything to let go. The overwhelming hot tears weren't forced, they just came and I spent the entire afternoon wrapped up in it. But then it was over.

Maybe it's dysfunctional, but I learned from childhood not to wallow too long or I'm consumed. The result is learning to deal with emotional matters in what feels to me like the most effective but efficient way. Generally even with OOTF and EF once I have the tools my mind rules my heart.

Last night I was caught in a bad EF of my own doing having shared something with uPDm I should have kept to myself. After a few restless hours of trying to remember the flashback tools and calm myself I took out my list and went through each of the 13 steps over and over until I finally fell asleep. It's just how I function. I often say I can't stay within my own brain too long because it's too scary a place for me and I need to process and stay out of my head. It served my professional career well to be able to tackle huge problems.

Do you notice yourself very self-sufficient in your other relationships? Is it hard for you to ask for help, even when you should?

yes and sometimes. Partly because I've been betrayed by friends but mostly because uPDm has stolen my friends or cut them off behind my back actually telling some to 'stay away my daughter doesn't need you in her life' from what one friend told me (she was a good friend who died far too young from cancer). My DH is the one true friend I trust and was actually a childhood friend long before a romantic attachment. Here and OOTF is where I get mental and emotional support because it's safe, in RL I have many friends of varying intimacy levels I have asked for physical and spiritual support. And it's my mental processing that tells me I need to reach out because DH told me many many years ago I will always feel alone unless I learn to reach out and let people know I have need and then see who's willing to help, the i know who my friends are. He's so wise for having been raised so dysfunctional himself.

Well now I'm running late and must go for now! BBL !

[spryte]

Butterfly - I think that everyone grieves differently, and in their own way. It's good to take a look at the possibility that maybe you've grieved too quickly....but something says to me to urge you to honor your own process. I think it's very easy when we get immersed in the world of books, and therapists, and support groups to 1. look at other people's processes and compare our own and think that we're different or wrong if ours doesn't look like theirs and 2. have a lot of people (even if it's just an author) looking at us, metaphorically hugging and stroking us, almost pushing us down saying "Noooo....you're the viiiiiiictiiiiim.....you have to greiiiiiiiiivvvvvv..."

To put it in perspective, I have known rape victims who did not feel victimized by their experiences until they went to therapy. So, it just depends on what your heart is telling you to do. And...it's my experiences that these things have a way of coming back around if they HAVEN'T been processed. My dad told me a story about me as a kid with my mother a few weeks ago...two days later I got triggered, processed it, cried about it on and off for the evening...and in the morning...felt better about it. It didn't hurt as much. Whose to tell me that it was too "quick" that I didn't talk it to death with anyone, that I didn't process it well enough? Maybe that is the case, but if it needs to be looked at more later...I'm pretty sure that it's going to let me know that.

Maybe you don't need a ritual to let anything go. Maybe you need a ritual to celebrate the new person that you're becoming, and your healing, and your progress! Ritual can be used for anything, and I just think they're super helpful for marking milestones, and setting intentions.

I think this fall I'm going to be doing a lot of them.

"Last night I was caught in a bad EF of my own doing having shared something with uPDm I should have kept to myself. "

I've totally done that. It's why I had to go NC with my mom. It takes so much energy to maintain that protective distance with them. I'm sorry that she makes things so much more complicated with your friends. It sounds like you have good support though, and that's great!

[schrödinger's cat]

    I get that too. Sometimes I just have to take a breather and do things that remind me that not every part of me is broken. I like how Jon Kabat-Zinn puts it: "There's more right with you than is wrong with you."

Someone around here mentioned some expert saying that you have to titrate your recovery process. Like a coffee drip filter, I think that means. Or like a french press - let things percolate. Or like a ruminating cow - things will keep coming up, I'll keep on chewing them and swallowing them back down... hm no, perhaps that isn't such a good metaphor. Thing is, I'd think that especially for us, it's important to honour our own way of doing things. We need to find our own truth and listen to our inner voice. And that's part of it. Of course it's still best to stay open to suggestions, and to check from time to time that we're still on track. But at times, we get to do things differently.

...people (even if it's just an author) looking at us, metaphorically hugging and stroking us, almost pushing us down saying "Noooo....you're the viiiiiiictiiiiim.....you have to greiiiiiiiiivvvvvv..."

To which we say: "True, I have to grieve. But right now, I have to play Skyrim and shoot zombies. It builds my Fight Response." 

[spryte]

I LOVE Jon Kabat-Zinn. You have reminded me that I need to put his audio book back on my phone so I can go to sleep listening to it. (Best fall asleep to audio book ever! Full Catastrophe Living)

[schrödinger's cat]

I liked his attitude towards his patients. He seems very respectful towards them, and his approach to meditation is meant to help them remember that they aren't powerless helpless victims - that there's so much there's right with them, so much they can control.

[Kizzie]

The ruminating cow - good one Cat   

Spryte, I love the idea of rituals!  I hadn't thought of that but you're right, they can be very powerful.  I had ovarian cancer back in 2007 and when I started to lose my hair from chemo I went to a woman's cancer care clinic, had it shaved off and then had a long body and head massage with soft music and candles.  That evening my H and I had a fire in the back yard and burned a big swatch of my hair.  It was symbolic of fighting the cancer and it was so very powerful. 

This isn't a ritual but I also went to a care class after my hair was gone where we had a makeover and learned techniques for using makeup so that if we were uncomfortable with our baldness (eyebrows and eyelashes go too),  we wouldn't feel so conspicuous.  Not everyone with cancer feels that way and wear their baldness proudly of course, but for those of us who did the tips and support helped a lot.   Anyway, my point is that self-care was high on the agenda for those involved in all aspects of my treatment and when I flashed back to it reading this thread I realized just how important it is give self-care high priority in our recovery from CPTSD.   

Having cancer was very traumatic and yet I do not have nightmares, I do not have left over feelings about it, and it does not haunt me I think because I was able to deal with it rather than stuff all the fear and pain.   I still remember that time but it is part of my larger internal landscape -- it's integrated -- and I have been able to move on from it.  This is what I'd like to do with my CPTSD.

[Butterfly]

(((Kizzie)))

Thank you all for the thoughts on grieving in our own time and own way. Very validating. Love the thought of the cow too because yes it will come back up to process if need be. 

The thought of wellness rituals, excellent. Now that you say that I have been building these in small ways and DH even commented how I make time for me in such a good and healthy way. It makes him happy to see me well. One of the rituals I'm trying to use more is making a special pot of herbal tea instead of a glass of wine from time to time and may have to consider that more often.

[spryte]

Kizzie - I really like the distinction that you made about how you processed the experience of having cancer as opposed to your past. I was musing the other day about something similar...about how I felt that I'd gotten healthy enough to begin processing my present...for the last several years. I got to the point where I could feel my feelings, refused to shove anything down, opened my mouth and communicated about things, protected myself in crappy situations or at least...removed myself from those situations even if I didn't feel strong enough to create and hold boundaries there...and so...even though I feel like I have this filing cabinet full of crap that I didn't have time to process from my past...even going up to a few years ago with all my relationships...the last 3 or 4? There have been no more entries. That gives me hope.

[schrödinger's cat]

A really interesting thread. Thanks. I've been thinking about what people here have said for the past few days, on and off. Thanks for pointing out about self-care. I'm starting to write my own version of Pete Walker's 13 steps, and I've added self-care after an EF to the section where he mentions soothing our inner child.