Does it scare you?

[spryte]

Rain - I think that it's imperative that we do what works for us. We've been doing that all along. Our defense mechanisms may fall along a spectrum of "sameness" but they were really amazingly adaptive and creative considering that we developed them to keep us safe, as children. I think it's the same as everything else. The same thing doesn't work for everyone, and sometimes we just have to keep trying, keep trying, keep trying to figure out what works for us. It's like...I've been working for years to get myself to drink more water. Apparently, I am really particular about the thing that I drink water out of. It has to be portable, easy to carry, I have to like the way it feels to drink out of it...blah blah blah...I can't tell you how many drinking apparatuses I went through, and spent money on...only to figure out that what I like to drink water out of most is the plastic cups that iced coffee comes in from Dunkin Donuts. My brain is weird, and particular.

I will tell you though, why the particular way that I'm handling it is helpful to me. I am not advocating that you change your methods.

In the book that I talked about, it does explain the roundabout ways that those criticisms are actually defense mechanisms. It helps me to understand WHAT it is that I'm trying to protect myself from, to be able to dissect the criticism itself to see what's at the bottom of it...in order to be able to say...Ok, I see what you're trying to do here, but that's not helpful. Lets find another way to do this. Perhaps your elderly wise friend is able to intuitionally know how to do that on their own...I don't know. But this is why it's helpful for ME to have those conversations with my critic.

I think maybe it also gives me a sense of control, because I have been successful in having those conversations with her...and changing her tone and her approach...whereas...when I tried to talk to my mother about how unhelpful she was being, even though I knew that she was "worried about me", I just got more of the same, and blame thrown back at me. I think it all depends on how we visualize those voices in our heads to begin with. That book taught me to externalize the voice (which we've done) but to also identify whose voice it is. I knew right away that it was my mother's. I tried envisioning her in my board room...that was just too difficult. I couldn't have her in my head more than she already was. The "she" in my head is still pretty amorphous, which is weird given how visual I am.

[spryte]

schrödinger's cat - me too! (the less weird part) haha, I feel like I tell people that and they're like...uh....I think people would be very worried about me if they had any idea that (and even more now lately) how often I am "talking" to myself, or to different, or multiple aspects of myself.

I love the idea of the monitor. I may have to incorporate that. I just learned recently that I think it's really the auditory aspect of a lot of this that bothers me...I was in a situation that normally would have triggered me big time the other day, but because I could only see it, and not hear it, it didn't. I think being in control of the "volume" might be very helpful for me to process some of those memories. Thanks!

[spryte]

Rain - a long time ago, after my really abusive relationship, I started to see myself as a piece of un-molded clay. Our parents are supposed to teach us how to mold ourselves, and of course...with our backgrounds, they don't. We don't get any tools at all to use to our own advantage. They mold us into what they find most pleasing, and most useful to them...and then they send us out into the world un-fired. In my case, I found another abuser who was more than willing to mold me into his liking. And I didn't know any better than to let him.

I guess with as many trust issues as I have with myself, I just now realized that that is one promise I have kept to myself in these recent years...that I wouldn't hand myself over to anyone else to be molded. That's kind of a big realization for me. 

I like cherry coke! I think I shall start celebrating more when I uncover little pieces of Who I Am. I recently realized that I have an affinity for very brightly colored skirts...especially now when it's so rainy and grey where I am.

[spryte]

I think that's a GREAT idea! I'd love a place to celebrate those little bits of myself that I'm discovering!

It's a sad truth that those who have abusive childhood's are much more likely to be re-victimized later on in life. I learned a lot about myself in that situation though. Wouldn't recommend it as a learning tool though. lol.

[schrödinger's cat]

Spryte, I'm sad to hear how hard your life was. I mean, of course, whose wasn't... we're not here because we grew up in a disney-coloured paradise... but still. Sorry to hear it.

[bI think people would be very worried about me if they had any idea that (and even more now lately) how often I am "talking" to myself, or to different, or multiple aspects of myself. [/b]

Ha, same here. If I were totally open, I'd often be saying things like: "...so I talked to my subconscious about that problem, and it said...".

Have you read anything about ego state therapy? I stumbled across the concept entirely by accident - we have a huge library here, and a book on ego state therapy happened to be right next to another book I was looking for. It helped me to understand a few things about my aspects.

[spryte]

Spryte, I'm sad to hear how hard your life was. I mean, of course, whose wasn't... we're not here because we grew up in a disney-coloured paradise... but still. Sorry to hear it.

[bI think people would be very worried about me if they had any idea that (and even more now lately) how often I am "talking" to myself, or to different, or multiple aspects of myself. [/b]

Ha, same here. If I were totally open, I'd often be saying things like: "...so I talked to my subconscious about that problem, and it said...".

Have you read anything about ego state therapy? I stumbled across the concept entirely by accident - we have a huge library here, and a book on ego state therapy happened to be right next to another book I was looking for. It helped me to understand a few things about my aspects.

No, I've never come across that concept. Do you have any titles, or specific resources for it? I can google it.

[schrödinger's cat]

I read a book by Jochen Reichl, but I don't think it's ever been translated into English. He's building on work done by an American, John G Watkins, so that may be a place to start?

However, another thing he builds on is the "Inner Team" concept by Friedemann Schulz von Thun. Basically, it's what you've discovered by yourself too. The theory in a nutshell is this (as far as I remember):

You have within yourself multiple 'voices'. So say a colleague wants to borrow something you urgently need yourself. There's a helpful part of you that wants to say "yes, of course" at once. There's a wary part saying: "...but will I get it back?" There's maybe a snide and competitive part that suggests withholding it so your colleague won't get ahead. So this is something most people experience, all these different parts of you with different feelings and agendas about the same issue. Normally, you don't even notice it: people tend to favour some of these "voices" and to push others in the background, where they are still felt but never really given a voice.

When it comes to making difficult decisions, though, the inner conflict can be hard to resolve. That's when this Inner Team method comes into play. Basically, you function as a team leader, and you hold a conference for all your parts. First of all, you name them. Then each part gets to have its say without being criticized or silenced. That done, you (as chairman) sum up what you've heard, and then work out a compromise. After that, you can ask each part if it's okay with them.

My guess is that this won't work for difficult cases, or when one is newly recovering. But the underlying concept of the modular self, that's one you'll also find in ego state therapy. There, the theory is: some of those component parts might be brainwashed into being loyal with our abusers. Others might not "know" properly that this is 2014, that we're grown-ups who are now safe: so Reichl suggested telling those aspects that "it's 2014, we're in this-and-that city, this is our own house and not our family's, we can lock the door and keep our abusers from coming in, this is 2014...". He's also working with the assumption that all our ego-states have helpful intentions (even destructive ones), but that there are also pure introjects, which we cannot and must not negotiate with, but must annihilate. The art seems to be in telling one from the other. --- That's what I remember from Reichl's book, which I read... eight years ago? So my memory of it is a bit vague.

[schrödinger's cat]

Thanks, glad you liked it.

The part that I found most valuable for myself was this idea that some of our aspects are stuck in time, as it were. Or that they are stuck in a specific type of situation, and so whenever we feel mocked, or whenever someone adopts a pose that's physically intimidating, WHAM! out comes that particular aspect.

That actually explains a lot. I mean, even non-CPTSD people have moments when... say they see a bouncy castle and have suddenly this itch to just go bounce, as if the sight of it had activated their inner eight-year-old. In them, the grown-up parts are strong and healthy enough so they can just smile at that childlike aspect and then negotiate something that will please all parts. But of course, CPTSD damages everything, including our inner cohesion. So a situational ego-state gets activated, and its panic / shame / whatever overwhelms us and pulls us under.

Also, Watkins and Reichl say that ego states (or aspects) are at the heart of them benevolent. Even addictive behaviour is at core a problem solving strategy. (C)PTSD-type trauma is so horrifically damaging, our psyche adapts and copes in ways that seem problematic later, but that actually helped us pull through at the time. They were a resource once. Maybe they aren't one now, but they started out as the one thing we could do to save ourselves.

Take my habit of dissociating. Yes, it's problematic. I want to stop doing it. So ordinarily, I'd think: "Urgh, dissociating is such a weird thing to do... no one else does it... it's the cause of so many problems..." And that's true. But it's also valid to think: "Back then, I ran out of options. Dissociating was the one thing I could do to make things bearable. It's true that it didn't solve my problems, but it's also true that it helped keep the suicidal thoughts at bay, so maybe I'm still alive because a part of me knew how to dissociate." Seen this way, my dissociation is a bit like that thing some animals do, where they gnaw off their own leg when they get trapped, because if they didn't, they'd be killed. One can respect the sheer guts it takes to do that - while also being very sure that gnawing one's body parts off is certainly a habit one would wish to break.

[spryte]

Yes SC, thank you very much for sharing all of that. I'll have to look into that much more deeply. The inner team is definitely what I've been doing. I think I just got so tired of all the clamoring that I had to organize it in some way, lol. I don't think I use it for decision making so much though, and it would be interesting to see how that would work. I think mostly I use it just to calm all the aspects of myself, to "talk them down off the ledge" so to speak. Hmmm...have to play with using that tool a lot more.

Can one of you explain to me what a "pure introject" is? That's not a word that I've come across before.

I'm becoming even more familiar with a part of myself that is "stuck in time" or otherwise not aware that I'm an adult, ok, and safe. I'm not sure I was even aware of how strong it's presence was until I came to this board. I've read some stuff here that I've had some serious somatic response to...anxiety and stomach ache. It was all very strange, until I realized yesterday that I've rarely, if ever, talked about this stuff with people other than my T. Looking at all of the stuff that I've suffered at one time or another made a part of me very afraid that I was going to somehow get "sucked back into the past" to have to deal with all of that again. So...that's what I've been working on.

It's really interesting to look at our behaviors to see how they served us in the past. Defense mechanisms are something that I find really really interesting. We were incredibly strong, and creative, as kids to come up with them. I'm definitely ready to stop gnawing my own arm off though, lol!

And Rain, those are exactly the people that I want to help when I'm a counselor. I thought about focusing on kids, but with so many children with PD parents, there really just isn't a whole lot that anyone can do. I want to be there for people like us, who are intent on cleaning up the mess so that they can reach their fullest potential.

[schrödinger's cat]

Can one of you explain to me what a "pure introject" is? That's not a word that I've come across before.

Uhm, probably because it's simply just a language error. Sorry about that. What I meant was, an introject pure and simple. Something that's 100% an introject. Reichl distinguishes between the following aspects, all of which might attack us and do harmful things:

---Ego states that identify with the perpetrator (i.e. to whoever abused us). If I remember this correctly, those states will often work as allies of the perpetrator, echoing his words and doing his deeds. For example, if you grow up with a passive-aggressive father, you'll learn how to be passive-aggressive from him. You'll have one aspect within you that mirrors this guy's passive-aggressive stance, opinions, and goals.

---Ego states that are loyal to the perpetrator: there's a difference, and I think it's that these ego states can play a role that's complementary to the perpetrator instead of mirroring his role precisely (maybe the role of loyal victim?).

---Introjects, which are NOT a part of our self: they have NO good function, they are one hundred percent bad, and they must be fought and eradicated and NOT negotiated with.

So... yikes, yes, "pure introject" is an oxymoron. 

[schrödinger's cat]

Hi rain! As I said, it's been years, but I'm reasonably certain that it's this one: "Innere Kinder, Täter, Helfer & Co: Ego-State-Ther​apie des traumatisierte​n Selbst". It's written for other experts, not the general public, but I found it relatively easy to understand, compared with the usual style of German-language expert-for-expert textbooks. If you look it up on amazon.de, they let you take a peek into the book. You probably know how to do it - there's this little arrow thing above the picture of the book, click on that and you can read a few pages.

[Rain]

Thank you, Cat!!!   I found it by Jochen Peichl.

But, ummm ...it appears to be in German only.    I have a German heritage but only know one word in German.   

I so appreciate what you have shared in your understanding of the book ...I have soooooooooo much to learn.

[schrödinger's cat]

Yes, sorry, just in German. IF I ever order it and make notes (that's a very big if, sad to say - I've so many CPTSD books to read now), I might post them here?