Freeze/Dissociation Type, "Untreatable"?

[annbelievesinwhales]

In my experience it's very much treatable but it's so very difficult. My journey has consisted of tons of awareness of when i dissociate, lotss of mindfulness of what's going on in my body, doing lots of body stuff (exercises and stretching) and stubbornly deciding to stay put when i get that urge to dissociate. I also do a lot of mantras such as i can handle  this, tolerate this, accept it, make space for it, etc. 

[seriousann333]

To answer your questions. I thought I recovered from being in afreezer then sorry to say I am not recovered. This time around after being retraumatized again my recovery time is much faster. Like 1 or 2 days instead of months. I have learned to accept the possibility of not recovering and honestly as painful as it can be, it has shaped who I am. A resilient, creative, passionate and compassionate person. Sometimes I ponder the Hero's journey in mythology. I see my traumas as being on a quest and being chosen to go on the quest. I know I will prevail and sometimes be knocked down, but will get up because I have always survived.
There's strength in surviving. Traumatized people are some of the most inspiring and beautiful people on earth!
Take care
Seriousann333

[tired]

The problem is that you don't know what you're doing so you can't fix something that a part of you is hiding from yourself! It's really an impossible situation.

I feel like psychoanalysis was my only hope. I went for 5 years and my therapist was able to point out many many things I was doing/saying/feeling without realizing it.  I still do the freezing but I have some awareness of it.  Before analysis I would not have noticed at all or perhaps not enough to do anything. It's like seeing something fleeting out of the corner of your eye but when you turn it's gone. 

I don't believe anything is untreatable frankly.  If I did, I would be dead right now.  I look back on all the times I felt something was absolutely impossible and I could never do it, and I have actually done many of them already.  I was so certain I could never do them.  Sometimes I got help and sometimes I did it myself. 

Whether you would need help or just time, I don't know.  I sometimes wonder, what if I didn't go to therapy? Would I have learned all that just over time, because that's sometimes what happens?  I think we expect things to change quickly and they don't.Self discovery happens slowly.  Maybe the trick is to live in the meantime. 

[Indigochild]

Southbound, this is exactly me too with the dissociation.
I have to listen to a tv programme / series when I go to bed at night- not sure why, think thoughts keep me awake. If not, its kind of like sleeping with out a having a pillow.
And i do start my morning with internet.
I dont like silence in the house.
I have to have a programme on while i eat. Music doesnt cut it- i have to live in a tv programme.
And i have to listen to music on the bus.

Once, when i felt myself disasociate (depersonalise), i was washing up when it happened, I realised in my disasociated state, that I had lots of internet racket going on in my head, lots of thoughts and music and voices. My own thoughts are the voices.
And then i felt i was drifting away from the internal chatter- that i wasnt paying attention to anyway, but disassociating made me recognise that there was chatter, by forcing me to step back and the sounds quietened.

[Laynelove]

I definitely think you can recover from this.

I've found that recovery is all about mindset. If I read somewhere that there is no cure for something I'm suffering from then I stop trying. If someone tells me it is possible to recover then I kickstart into motivation and have significantly less anxiety about my future then i did when I was convinced it was hopeless trying. I'd imagine you are the same, which is why you asked the question in the first place. I think in this case, you should tell your brain it IS possible to recover. Every time you start thinking that it is not possible, stop and replace the thought with 'I'm going to get past this or die trying'. I'm also a freeze type and I'm actually starting to be more aggressive with myself when I go into these states...I've set a boundary with myself, and I tell myself 'NO' when I feel the need to get away. I used to read the paper at the table having lunch with colleagues but now I force myself to join the conversation. Yes it's uncomfortable, yes it sucks, but the only way out is through.

In saying all this, I think it is dangerous to label freeze type as another "disorder" that we need to "cure". The brain repeats things that it finds pleasurable. Chronic daydreaming and dissociating from the world via fantasy is more pleasurable than feeling painful feelings. You should look at freeze type as an addiction not a disorder. If you look at it that way, would you ever tell a heroin addict that they can't kick their habit? Any addiction can be recovered from. Yes you might occasionally crave being alone, but it doesn't mean you need to give in to those cravings. There is a youtube channel called navs recovery by leyla loric, she has successfully healed her dissociation. If you look up 'cure maladaptive daydreaming' on youtube as well there are some great tips there if you find yourself daydreaming a lot.

The spartan life coach is great on youtube as well. He uses NLP and said that to heal from freeze response you need to convince your brain that it is dangerous to continue freezing, and safe to be present in the moment. At the moment your brain thinks it is safe to dissociate, and it also finds this pleasurable because fantasy is fun. I think we also need to learn that we are allowed to express feelings even when other people are around. I think this is a form of social anxiety...being scared to be vulnerable in front of others. Social anxiety can be cured.

As helpful as forums are when it comes to connecting with people who suffer similarly, I find them to be quite dangerous as there is a major theme of negative mindset. The main thing I have seen on every single forum I've ever been to regarding mental health is '...... Can't be cured, you just learn to manage it'. Yes I've accepted cptsd will be lifelong but that doesn't mean that every single aspect of it is. I definitely think some symptoms can be recovered from to a point where they aren't part of your life anymore.

I hope this helps, I'm going to say that I am learning to choose healthier ways to cope with negative feelings, and I am learning to express feelings to others instead of holding onto them all myself.

[woodsgnome]

    :and , Laynelove. Loved this take from your commentary:

"I think it is dangerous to label freeze type as another 'disorder' that we need to 'cure'. The brain repeats things that it finds pleasurable. Chronic daydreaming and dissociating from the world via fantasy is more pleasurable than feeling painful feelings."

I'm speaking as a classic freezer, per Walker's description. And I don't feel defensive about it. I have, actually; 'cause there have been several who consider it a problem. Well, guess what, it saved my life to follow that path, and I find it laughable to think of it as some problem that I must solve or sink beneath the waves of normality.

Saved my life? Hey, I was so depressed when a kid I wanted to end it, saw no way out. But I found a way, and while I'm sure some crackfire T would love to label me a poor freeze sort/avoidant/daydreamer/escapist/etc./ad infinitum I'll just say it again: saved my life to be this way.

I literally live in the woods. I came here 40 years ago, found I could at least live with myself; and yes, I was escaping from a horrid life, no ifs/ands/buts. I live in a hand-hewn self-built house that's a work of art. Speaking of labels, I didn't come here as a back-to-the-land nature freak, but as a confused human looking for himself, seeking only to find the PEACE denied him by people who nearly destroyed his will to live. Survived, and did alright by anyone's standards (and no, I don't mean money, it was never my consideration other than to have enough).

I created an artistic career that brought me in touch with people. I still can't fully trust anyone, but I've worked with lots and spoken to thousands of people, acted as mentor and teacher to many along the way.

And yes I'm that terrible varmint known as a hermit--which doesn't mean someone who sits in the woods and lives in regret. I have plenty, and I can trigger at the slightest mention or memory, and certain people and situations almost always end up in an EF episode. I can't sleep many nights when the memories crash. I'm still learning to live with the downside, but there's enough upside to almost make me proud to be a freeze or whatever the label has to be.

I think a lot of people must miss Walker's positive treatment of the different responses to cptsd. Check out pages 106-107 and those around it and you'll find all sorts of upsides to each condition. As a freeze, I know I've loads of mindfulness--if it came about as a reaction to the bad stuff, well it obviously took a good turn--people pay huge sums for mindfulness training, I find it just a part of my makeup. Should I feel bad for that?

Walker lists awareness, presence, and my life's dream--PEACE--as positive characteristics for freeze sorts. I'll take it. Yes, I've literally hidden here; yes, I can easily dissociate; I sure am a hermit, but I've also been very sociable in my profession when I had to be and creative as * in living despite the obstacles of the "disorder".

Walker does note that freeze types can become quite content with their condition. Really--that's a problem?

Laynelove added: "You should look at freeze type as an addiction not a disorder." I'd toss out addiction and replace with something like creative passion for life. It's just a choice that, in my case, I felt compelled to take. Maybe I'll have to write a book--"The Freeze's Manifesto" or something .

So yes, I have huge problems. But I also did something with what was dumped on me. Yes, it's hard to get a grip on dealing with people, and my trust level still rests towards the bottom on any scale. It's hard to motivate myself to do things; but I've certainly done lots--I've won awards for, gulp, working with kids. I don't call it recovery, just fortitude in distress. Recovery? I don't see it as a prospect, and no longer worry about it...Acceptance of what I can/can't do is more important.

So next time someone admires how I live, alone and in the woods, and admires what I've done, I'm not about to correct 'em and say "but don't you know, I'm one of those poor freeze types? The ones that cause therapists to furrow their brows and pull sad faces." Yeah, right.

I know, another long post but it's obviously something that stirs me. Still here, still working, but also dreaming, fantasizing a way to be a part of this world as best I can. Blinded by tears sometimes, lots of cptsd-remnant pain, but it's been a good life too. As Laynelove points out, it's good to remind ourselves sometimes.

[Indigochild]

Southbound

How cool that now you dont start your day with internet.
And also cool that you are writing a book!

It is interesting to me where the voices come from. Maybe its normal to have them. Maybe we have them because we dont pay attention to ourselves.

I definitely think you can recover from this.
I've found that recovery is all about mindset. If I read somewhere that there is no cure for something I'm suffering from then I stop trying. If someone tells me it is possible to recover then I kickstart into motivation and have significantly less anxiety about my future


Do you mind me asking Southbound, how it was that you came to figure out that you could live with yourself?
It is one of my worst fears, living alone- alone.

I hope to one day trust myself. I dont trust anyone and thats bad, but maybe its so bad because i cant even trust myself. when it comes to me, its as though I'm a body, but my insides fall to my feet and I'm hollow. I gave up on myself a long time ago and wonder if ill ever get the motivation back for myself.

Walker lists awareness, presence, and my life's dream--PEACE--as positive characteristics for freeze sorts. I'll take it.

I will have to read that chapter, because I'm confused as to why we are aware = arnt we less aware of we are disassociating?
Do we disassociate because we are TOO aware?



Quote
Walker does note that freeze types can become quite content with their condition. Really--that's a problem?
Walker also said that freeze types are unaware of the life narrowing consequences of their freezing- or something to that nature.
I wonder, If anyone can truly greive etc- do Cptsd recovery work-
when they disassociate.
Disassociating takes away our feelings- and aparently-
If you dont ever feel the bad feelings-
you end up not feeling happiness fully too.
So if you disasociate and have absance of feeling-
can it really swing like a pendulum back and forth between *feeling* and *not feeling*?

I know it can perhaps in the beginning of recovery -
when you still disassociate.
You may be able to tolerate with in time painful feelings-
but afterwards you may disassociate.

ps. Im sure the mods will be understanding of what its like when you need to vent- or your passionate about what your writing and your on a roll.
I understand.

[Laynelove]

I wonder if as you recover from cptsd, your trauma response type could change?

Eg. If I work on self assertiveness, self confidence and self love, will I switch to a fight type? If I see myself as something worth fighting for I guess it could happen right?

I wish there were some studies we could take part in. I don't know about you guys, but I'm sick of wallowing in my own self pity and I am pretty keen to actively help find some solutions to our problems.

Does anyone know about any studies or trials or anything like that?

[Dutch Uncle]

I wonder if as you recover from cptsd, your trauma response type could change?

Eg. If I work on self assertiveness, self confidence and self love, will I switch to a fight type? If I see myself as something worth fighting for I guess it could happen right?

Yes, I think it is even the point.
From what I have gathered about the "four F's" in the first place is that one is not 'better' than the other. We can use all four. As anybody does. "Freezing" in itself is not a 'bad' thing/type, it becomes problematic if we "Freeze" when the situation calls for another response, and/or another response is at least 'available', a valid option.

Perhaps an analogy helps (for me it usually does):
If I'm about to cross a street, and suddenly a car pops out of nowhere at high speed, I'll Freeze in my action to cross. A very sensible and potentially life-saving Freeze response.
If I do the same when already halfway ON the street, not so much.
If I freeze every time I want to cross a street, with no traffic at all in sight, it's also not very 'apt', but then a mere annoyance.

Key for recovery is, I think, to find access to all four F's, and apply them in the 'right' situations. Getting rid of ALL freeze responses is not the end goal, just the dysfunctional "freezes".

As far as "Fight" goes: I did a self-defense course once, and in the first lesson the teacher basically said: "OK, we're going to learn you how to fight, but remember that walking away from a fight is still the best way to make sure you will not get beaten up."

[Laynelove]

http://youtu.be/FhXJC5J1LuU

Just some more info on freeze response, it's solution focused and really helpful 

[woodsgnome]

Thanks for the video link, Laynelove. Her summary touches on the key, that we can access the awareness/mindfulness/presence that Walker indicates is very doable for the freeze-dominated type. Realizing what's happening, appreciating why one's having difficulty with it, and living around, within, and through the situation, from major life decisions to taking the next step.

The anxiety doesn't disappear, but being mindful of it might allow one to do things they didn't think they could. Temporarily at least, but perhaps longer. It's a little deceptive, though, as it takes loads of patience to get to a comfortable level with it.

Does it always work? Not at all--name me a fool-proof method and it would be way cool. In my own case, I turned down lucrative-sounding jobs and money based on my freeze instincts--I was aware they weren't what I needed. Was I wrong? Maybe, maybe not. Depends on what one's trying to achieve...in my case, that was always what I considered most peaceful. I've had blowhards convinced that's my cover/camouflage right there, but to me it only shows their own covert way to invalidate my life. This society is so full of opinions presented as facts rather than as...opinions (surprise!). Crazy.

[woodsgnome]

Southbound wrote: "...it's hard to know when to stop when we get fired up about something."

This may be a little off the freeze/dissociation thread's theme, but these "cross-fire" questions do pop up within disparate topics. So slightly out-of-place or not, here's my take on length of posts.

In my case, I always start with an intent to be brief, but my life story started in an atmosphere of constant misunderstanding (some deliberate; some not so much; all abusive in nature). As I've gone through life, I've carrried this fear of being misunderstood, and probably reflect that. Trying to "twitterize" is impossible for me, as is soundbite-style rapid-fire speech (unless I'm performing as an actor and the script calls for it).

That's the crux of it for me...I worry about being heard; but then more so about was I truly understood. That's all (whew!).

[mkn022]

This all also so fully describes what I've been been experiencing and what I'm currently feeling super stuck in--and also part of why it feels so hard to go back into therapy, and why it feels like such a huge breakthrough when I cry/allow myself to feel anything in this state. But just reading some of this stuff is giving me so much of a better idea of what I should be looking for as I'm going to try to get back into therapy because I'm really, really done with feeling this stuck/trapped and being frustrated with how far back I fall after making what feels like progress.