“You teach others how to treat you”

[Chart]

Thank you Dollyvee for your response to Phoebes. I feel like my post kinda glossed over her experience.
Phoebes, I too feel angry at therapists who place the "blame" on the ones struggling to deal with the toxic people in their lives. This is insensitive and unjust. It clearly misses the fundamental element of developmental trauma: We cannot just rewire our brain after an upbringing of unrelenting abuse. Children are the victims and just turning 18 years of age doesn't mean that experience can just be "moved on from". At this stage of my healing I spot therapists like this straight away. In my search for a therapist a year ago I called one out and openly questioned her implication that I was somehow at fault. I also contradicted my psychiatrist when he asserted that anti-depressants treat the root causes of mental illness. I've learned a lot in a year of Cptsd consciousness, and I'm not going to let these things pass anymore. Knowledge is power and we here who have direct experience have every right to speak up.

Desert Flower, thank you from the bottom of my heart for your compliment. I feel very strongly about self-empowerment and believe I've understood how to go about it in a very healthy manner. Thank you for your validation it really touches me.

[NarcKiddo]

This is a very interesting thread. Thank you for starting it, rainydiary.

For me, part of the problem has been that for the longest time I didn't even realise I was allowed to have boundaries. Therefore the only way for me to deal with people who might or did transgress them was to put up with it or flee. I would flee with no explanation usually. Since I was not allowed to have boundaries what would have been the point of discussing them? And of course if you simply "put up and shut up" then I guess you do show people that you are prepared to put up and shut up. Even well meaning and considerate people are entitled to assume that their behaviour is acceptable if you don't indicate otherwise. I am not talking here about obviously toxic behaviour, which everyone should know is wrong and ideally nobody should engage in. I am talking about the small day to day carelessnesses or whatever that somebody could (and probably would) gladly try to curb if they knew someone found it distressing.

I hate the concept of therapists going around saying we are to blame, though. That's awful. They should be helping us to see where we might be giving out mixed or unclear messages so we can deal with that. And helping us can absolutely be done without blaming us.

[dollyvee]

I just wanted to say that I don't think my t was trying to blame me (and this is only my experience), but trying to make a clinical evaluation of the situation based on the information and practice standards at the time, which was 20 years ago before cptsd came on the radar. However, it's probably taken me 20 years to see that and that it wasn't necessarily about "me." This goes back to my first comment where I think that when we're shame based sometimes things hit that "shame spot," and because I was so used to it being about me and my fault, it was familiar to take what he was saying in that way. I'm sure I still do it now to some degree with my current t, but am trying to unpack that and understand why I can be so defensive at times.

I think it's along the lines of what Chart was saying and that sometimes you have a concept and then there's the concept when it applies to you. There's something in that interpretation that can go awry if toxic shame isn't taken into account potentially. It's like I know this may seem very simple to other people to take on board, but my brain doesn't process it that way.   

[Chart]

I don't think this is simple for anybody DV. Take the word "disorder" in cptsd. This hits a nerve for some people. Any word, phrase, concept, idea will have different implications for different people. And when those implications tap our emotions, especially around fierce forces like Trauma, the reactions can be all over the place.

For me the trick is not to let an emotion pass without recognizing that ultimately it comes from inside me (regardless of who put it there when I was a child, now it's in me). So I have to deal with it and maybe, just maybe, this person who triggered me with this emotional (by their actions or language or whatever) is completely oblivious of their effect. And regardless of their level of awareness, I have to go through all sorts of hoops and ladders to "figure out" the whole complex mess... Is it their fault? Mine? Should I get angry? Cry? Run?

Only with time will I eventually understand and start to see the different possibilities. And I've found that all too often it's ME and even if it isn't... the "other one" aint gonna apologize or agree or change... So it's STILL my problem... What am I gonna go about it?
I'm gonna try and change, not necessarily accept, but get where this person or subject doesn't trigger me and take me away from living harmoniously.

That's my objective anyway... doesn't always work
Sorry for the rant...
 

[Kizzie]

I'm one of those who doesn't like the word "disorder" because it doesn't capture the fact that we developed our symptoms in response to being abused/neglected. It's all about us being "disordered" and is shame inducing IMO, when in fact we creatively developed skills to survive.  I much prefer Complex Trauma Response. 

It's the same for "We teach others how to treat us." It implies that we are at fault in some way for not having good boundaries and again is shame inducing for so many of us.  Maybe if a T said something that acknowledged that we hadn't been taught good boundaries and then suggested doing some work in this area so we could learn how to protect ourselves, it would not sound like we're at fault.  It's different in intent and tone.

I also have trouble with clinicians who write about resiliency as something we are lacking. Actually IMO we are utterly resilient to have survived the unthinkable. If, however, it's referred to as replacing those skills with others that are more positive to protect ourselves in a healthier way it likely would be easier to hear.

I guess it's all in how and why something is said.  I'm all for compassion and understanding.

[Phoebes]

Thank y'all for the responses as well. I think many therapist say what they have heard and know. Maybe this saying fell on their ears differently, they took it as a positive, and it got adopted into their slogans of toxic positivity.. I'm sure they didn't intend to be so damaging. That said, this is why I don't have a therapist, and I take the, with a grain of salt. In the end we have to heal ourselves and believe ourselves. I know having a supportive relationship (if they are supportive in the right ways) is a big positive for people who can afford it.

[Papa Coco]

Rainy

I've heard that same quote many times over the years. "You teach people how to treat you." It's sort of a crass way of saying, "Just stand up to your bullies." When I'm feeling strong, I agree with it. When I'm feeling defeated, which is most of the time, it offends me because I was clearly taught how to take abuse, so I'm the one who was taught how to be treated. In my childhood, I was specifically told never to stand up to bullies, but to just ignore them until they go away. If I'd have fought back, it would have embarrassed my parents to be called to the school for fighting. If I stood up to family at home, I was outmatched. Three elder siblings and two parents would band together to fight me back down until I caved and gave in. How am I supposed to rise up from that training and just "teach people how to treat me"? 

NOT GONNA HAPPEN!

I could teach people how to treat me if I felt like I had the power or the right to do so. I need to learn that I deserve respect before I demand it. To me it boils down to the old "which came first, the Chicken or the egg?" adage. I can't teach people how to treat me with respect until I feel like I have the right to do so. Someone taught me to be a doormat, and now I have to be a doormat that has to teach people how to respect me? So much easier said than done.

For me, teaching and learning have to happen in tandem. I need help from good, qualified helpers to reteach me how to believe in myself enough to know how I want to be treated before I can just stand up to the bullies and demand respect. Standing up to an army of bullies is just not going to happen in a person who has already had the fight beaten out of me.

I've often seen myself as an unarmed, lone soldier, surrounded by enemies. TV and Hollywood create these super-human characters that save the world against entire armies, but in real life, I, as a lone soldier can't teach an army of enemies how to treat me.

I guess I agree that we do present ourselves in ways that show the world who we are, and some people will take advantage of that, so it's very cruel to just tell those of us who feel unable to stand up to them to just stand up to them.

The thing I hate most about bullying is that it works. Rising up out of the victim role, for me, has been a slow, careful process of baby steps. I still don't stand up for myself very well, but I'm starting to feel like maybe one day in the not-too-distant future I'll be better at it than I am now.