ANY SELF AWARE NARCS VISITING THIS SITE IN THERAPY GETTING BETTER, RECOVERING???

[Hazy111]

I believe I developed "the fight" type narcissistic defense to my childhood C-PTSD as per Peter Walkers 4fs.

I would love to hear from anybody suffering similarly, but i fear this is unlikely.

I am seeing a T , but i am struggling to recover. I keep reading that Narcs cant be cured. I think my T  maybe a narc (but i would, wouldnt i). I read that this can be worse, as it is triggering my narc defense when he trys to take me on my grandiose self. He advertises as treating C-PTSD and NPD, but im not convinced??

On a just simple basic interacting level with a fellow human being, i have to start dominating the conversation or i interrupt incessantly, or i switch off and stop listening , I hate why i do this. Afterwards im full of guilt. I cant stop it , its like a compulsion.

Fight types are unconsciously driven by the belief that power and control can create safety, assuage abandonment and secure love. Children who are spoiled and given insufficient limits (a uniquely painful type of abandonment) and children who are allowed to imitate the bullying of a narcissistic parent may develop a fixated fight response to being triggered. These types learn to respond to their feelings of abandonment with anger and subsequently use contempt, a toxic amalgam of narcissistic rage and disgust, to intimidate and shame others into mirroring them and into acting as extensions of themselves. The entitled fight type commonly uses others as an audience for his incessant monologizing, and may treat a "captured" freeze or fawn type as a slave or prisoner in a dominance-submission relationship. Especially devolved fight types may become sociopathic, ranging along a continuum that stretches between corrupt politician and vicious criminal.

[radical]

You are welcome here, Hazy111.

All the trauma typologies are responses to overwheming interpersonal trauma.  They are not who we are.  I believe we are all trying to recover the person we always were under the need to fight, flight, fawn or freeze, to free ourselves from being trapped by reactions that protected our life-forces when they were endangered.  To get back into our bodies and live and connect to others and the world as our authentic selves.

I don't feel that which habitual (compulsive) and dysfunctional response type protected us most, makes much of a difference.  I suspect that any ideas about being incurable relate to those who don't wish to uncover the injured person underneath.  Any typology that actually makes someone happy will be hard to have insight into.  You have insight, and you are one of us.

I suspect we all have aspects of all the typologies, and the healthy and unhealthy versions of them.  I know I do.  You are not alone.

[sanmagic7]

hi, hazy,

i agree a lot with what radical says.  i think we may have a dominant 'type', but we learn how to do all of them as the situation warrants.

i have had my own problems with arrogance, dismissing what others said, not making eye contact cuz i somehow thought i was better than them.   i was programmed to do that, i know that now.  insight and awareness are the first steps to changing our 'go-to' responses to others. 

it'll take time and work, won't always be clean and clear, you'll sometimes feel messy, but as you continue in recovery (at least, this is how it worked for me), you'll be able to change those programmed patterns of response and set up the ones that fit more with who you really are inside.   it'll happen.  baby steps and patience, especially with yourself.   you'll get to where you need to be.

[Hazy111]

Thank you for your replies sanmagic and radical . I am genuinely touched. You speak from a compassionate emphatic heart, one i can only dream of.

I post a lot for the benefit of others on here and on OOTF , i get carried away when im in my own self absorbed "narc, listen to me , read what ive learnt " zone and my offend, apologies, but i struggle with my own real pain.  Im 51 and dont think there is a way out of it. Im more of the devaluing narc i think, than the raging grandiose type.

Im reading again " Understanding the Borderline mother" Wow what a book.

I think i was totally enmeshed by my uBPD Hermit mother. The true self never emerged, just this false narc one. My T says I am probably still fused with her and never individuated as a real person. My T says there is an inner child to work on , but im not so sure, we narcs are great actors even in therapy.

Narcs get a lot of flak on here and elsewhere rightly so for their abuse. But please remember they were abused / traumatized to, its just they developed PD as a defense.

I think thats why narcs damage so many people as they their real selves havent emerged and treat everyone as fused objects, not real people. They dont want to feel vulnerable ever again.

Can insight be the start ?? Im 8 months in therapy now.

To get back into our bodies and live and connect to others and the world as our authentic selves.

   Beautifully written
 
I hate why i have to constantly make eye contact with people , to check their reactions to me, good/bad?? The paranoia. I cant accept that im irrelevant to the entire planet. Its exhausting being a narc, constantly monitoring the world around you.

Just wish there were more liked minded self aware victims to chat too and post.

Good luck with your recovery everyone 

Indeed baby steps youre right san magic 7. Its just been such a waste of a life.

[Blueberry]

Thanks for that insight, Radical. I read and sometimes post at Out Of The Fog and note how many members there write that PDs can never recover etc. Or that they don't want to. I know OOTS is separate so that we don't get triggered by that kind of reaction. But sometimes I think to myself: "Why don't you ask us if we can heal? Or if we're aware of ourselves and our thoughts and actions??" Because I have come a long way in my healing!

On a similar note, I used to go to 12 Step groups and used to be in types of therapy which include some of the 12 Step ideas. I don't use these tools anymore, they're too triggering. But back then you'd hear in meetings and also from Ts who propogated 12 Step ideas that you could never heal if you weren't completely sober in all addictions, including co-dependeny, workaholism and all those non-substance addictions, and of course sober from eating disorders, self-injury and even thoughts/images of doing any of these. That was pretty depressing to me because I have never managed to stop self-injury for a significant amount of time, and the only way I could eat semi-normally was by adhering to really strict rules which exhausted me so much, I couldn't do anything else in life. Cook, eat, wash dishes, sleep.
It wasn't till I was in trauma-based group therapy with Ts who had originally espoused 12 Step doctrine but had since had further training about C-PTSD and in trauma-based therapy, that I mentioned this. They negated this 12 Step idea. Their experience was what mine has become: of course you can begin to heal and get way on the road to it without first recovering from all your addictions. Everything heals bit-by-bit together rather than all of Problem 1, then all of Problem 2 etc.   

I imagine this PDs-can't-heal (or narcs-can't-heal) is some similar idea. Propogated by people who quite possibly don't really know. Ideas and theories on all sorts of subjects change over time. Why not this too?

[Hazy111]

Well done Blueberry im glad youre healing. Yes i go on OOTF too and sometimes amazed at the lack of connection

[sanmagic7]

i do believe insight can be a start, hazy.  also believe that most pd's don't get 'cured' because their defenses are so strong, so well-defined as to what their world must be (and what part they must play in that world) that they simply won't go there.  perhaps, they're not able to.  the damage may be too great.  it's very sad all the way around.

[The Magician]

Hazy,

Your words really touched me. My brother, who was/is a sensitive and sweet person, is (probably) an undiagnosed narc due to the abuse we shared as children/adolescents. Your self-awareness and obvious empathy gives me a lot of hope for him. Thank you.

[obscured]

This will be long but it will give you direct insight into a recovering narcissist (in part).

I have CPTSD, I have been professionally diagnosed with DID. I have three parts. One part has NPD. The other two parts of me do not.

I have been integrating steadily for the last six months. Diagnosis of CPTSD was four years ago and DID was two years ago. I have been seeing this therapist on and off for six years. My three parts have always had a hard time communicating but I was told there was some co-consciousness. Since the diagnosis I have been able to slowly accept that my protective part who is female (I am biologically male, so are my other two parts) has NPD traits. My therapist did not diagnose me as such, she diagnosed me as the sum of my parts. I personally believe that one third of me is NPD. This part of me has a hard time accepting that she is that way but my apparently normal self can see it clearly and because all my parts are fully aware of each other now, I have been able to accept this fact and she is not denying this fact any longer.

Where I have arrived in my recovery process is that I have developed a sense of "I" that is aware of all my parts and therefore all my behaviours, thoughts and emotions. I never used to have this unifying sense of identity. I used to just oscillate between the three parts and often in mixed states of two. For about four months I have had access to all my memories again. Of course this means I have been able to reflect on protective behaviour patterns which means I cannot deny my narcissistic traits any longer. Until I had this sense of "I" it was not possible to admit to my narcissistic part even though the apparently normal part of me knew it to be the case. Interesting.

For the last three weeks I have been having this recurring realisation "I am all of my parts". That is who I really am, because the world experiences the behaviour of all three parts. Now I can finally experience the same because I have developed this sense of "I" that encompasses all three parts. This idea of me being all my parts seems entirely logical and also very profound because I've not been able to experience all of me at once before now. No longer can I play the victim role of my wounded child, the proud coping strategist of apparently normal self or the cold, calculated and cruel machinations of my protective part without this new sense of "I" being aware of everything. There is an obvious caveat to that statement: emotional flashbacks which send me into one part exclusively for a while. On the other side of the flashback however, a debrief of full co-consciousness awaits.

I have struggled over the last two years to accept my narcissism. The logical conclusion is to accept it. It's in me. I behave in horrible ways when I feel threatened. I understand the reason for it, why these behaviours developed and why I split them off into a separate personality. I am all my parts. As a result of this self acceptance I can sometimes catch myself before I open my mouth or make a gesture. Other times I stuff up and realise it fairly soon after. I find it hard to appologise. I still rationalise that that was my protective part and she had her reasons. That is my old behaviour however and it cannot serve me well moving forward.

At the same time, because of my other two parts not being NPD my behaviour cannot be predicted in most situations as being congruent with that diagnosis. Hence my diagnosis is CPTSD and DID. So technically I am not a narcissist. Really that just means I am not a narcissist all the time, just some of the time. I'm not saying this to try and minimise my behaviours, I'm saying this because if I was entirely a narcissist I wouldn't know it. The other two parts and this new found sense of "I" allow me to know it. She has had to fess up because she can't hide from my other parts now. She wishes she was all of me because she sees the wounded child as a handicap. She wishes I had a female body so she could use that for manipulative purposes. These are murky waters, my dark side. She is willing to change because she accepts she is but one part of me and that she exists to protect my wounded child. My wounded child is aligned with my apparently normal self in regards to ethical conduct. She knows she is at odds with wounded child's attitude to people and so she will change. She understands that her "protective" (actually abusive) behaviour causes lot of pain for my wounded child.

This must seem so bizarre to anyone who doesn't live with multiple personalities. This is coming from someone who has recently learned to integrate so that is why it is a mixture of integration and separateness. This is my journey.

I have a friend who was recently diagnosed with BPD. It was very difficult for him to accept at first but he is now progressing well in his recovery.

I have an ex who is exactly like me except without co-consciousness. I cannot be around her because she cannot accept any of her behaviour and projects the blame on to me for everything she does and then acts like the sun shines from her you-know-what.

The ability to feel shame and guilt coupled with self awareness is a tremendous gift. My uncomfortable, sometimes unbearable feelings are something I have learned to tolerate. Life is suffering. It's an inescapable fact. To be a better person devote some or all of your life to reducing the suffering of others. Self-centeredness is the source of my uncomfortable, sometimes unbearable feelings and I have learned to use these feelings as markers for behaviours that perpetuate my own suffering. I am systematically working on reducing these behaviours to reduce the suffering of others so that I might lead a life worth living.

So am I getting better? Yes I am. I am consciously working on being a less self centered, less self obsessed person. Therapy took away my confusion and taught me to talk to my selves. Deciding to help other people and think of my self less often has made me a lot happier, the happiest I've ever been.

[clarity]

Amazing to read, obscured-who-is-less-and-less-obscured 

So inspired and uplifted by your journey so far... thankyou for sharing.

[Blueberry]

Thanks, obscured. That was really interesting. Thank you for being so honest.

I don't have DID but I have a lot of inner children and teens, of whom I used to be very conscious and who used to throw me for six. I know it's not the same as what you're dealing with and have been dealing with but because of my own experiences I can imagine how much harder your position has been.  to your recovery process so far.
Also what you describe doesn't sound so bizarre to me.

[Contessa]

Good post! Questions and stories.

I have adult onset C-ptsd, though my childhood was not without its influences.

I could see the 'flaws' in my upbringing, so made the conscious choice to be for others what I knew I needed but lacked in my own life. Sounds a little sad but no, it was very personally empowering and satisfying.

But when suffering the traumas, crying for help and not receiving it from my (now no longer) loved ones, I eventually developed narcissistic traits. It was purely self protection. I needed to protect and defend myself because nobody else was. I suppose I put on armour, and it was tough, rough, cold, sharp... all it did was fight for me. It couldn't protect anyone else.

So I feel that I developed it too. Hated it, but needed it. Not just to keep out from the people who were abusing me, but to stop the soft real me from being torn apart. Problem was it was suffocating.

Armour is off now

[obscured]

Thank you Clarity, Blueberry and Contessa for your shared experiences and encouragement.

After writing that reply yesterday I went on a date. The writing process brought full awareness to that part of me and I have reflected on how I acted on the date and in talking to my date on the phone today. I really am a narcissist. I can see it very clearly. I am of the covert variety.

I'm not afraid of the truth and I'm not drowning in toxic shame.

[Contessa]

Hey Obscured,
I've been dating too
I noticed in our texting to each other that I used a lot of "I" and "my" words. This might be a product of being very self centred for so long, and also just lack of interaction for a while.
So with that observation i've tried to change perspectives with the content.

Not sure if that is the case with your dates - or general interactions - but as self centred as a narc may be i'm not sure if they are self aware enough to even observe their behaviour in such a reflectice and evaluative manner.

They might observe and praise themself on how well they were able to manipulate others (in my experience), but not be concerned about what you clearly are. To me there is no scope for reform.

I'm not a trained psychologist at all, but I don't get the narc vibe from what you have said here.