Primarily Fight Response Question

[LaurelLeaves]

My question is to People Who Primarily Have the Fight Response. 

So, husband seems to be a person with mostly maladaptive fight response, with fawn as a second.  I know he was abused as a child, never had father, and rejected, guilt tripped, and used like a slave by his mother.

So it's not his fault that he is the way he is.  His focus is on his hurt.  Which I can understand.  Why wouldn't your focus be on your hurt?  Except he's hurting his own family, and he doesn't seem to recognize it.  He's essentially hurting me because his mother hurt him, but he doesn't realize it. 

So my question is to People Who Primarily Have the Fight Response:
When did you realize that you were hurting others, and that was not okay?

One such person said that reading Understanding Your Borderline Mother helped him understand himself.
So I wonder if buying him book would help.  But it's iffy if he would read it. 

Seriously... after 24 year of marriage, I wonder if throwing up my hands, yelling THERE ARE FOUR LIGHTS, and leaving would be a better solution.  But I actually LIKE him.  And care about him getting better for his sake... no one should be in that much pain.

[BlancaLap]

I realized that when I got out of dissociation, and I got out when I found I was "relatively" safe. Maybe it's safe for your husband to be in your house, but what about his job? Does the environment feel safe to him? Maybe you could (Idk how to say it in english), stay away from him a little bit? He is not gonna change until he starts to FEEL. He needs to be in the present and FEEL what he is doing. The best thing you can do is keep your distance. I'm NOT saying you should move to another house, I'm saying maybe you shouldn't be with him when he is mad and expect him to change, cause that's not how it works...

[Three Roses]

The simplest things can make me feel threatened - an innocent remark, a facial expression. I don't always go into fight reaction when I feel threatened, but every time I've had a bad fight reaction I've been triggered by feeling unsafe.

Looking back at them, I can see the pressure that builds up before a fight reaction. These days I can usually avoid a blow up just by noticing and accepting I am headed that way. If I resist and deny, it's not helpful.

The thing is, looking back at my past and the times I really have lost it, I was almost always immediately overcome by a sense of overwhelming defeat, shame, and hopelessness. What I did then varied but was usually a combo of giving myself a time out (also handy for indulging in some great quality time with my Inner Critic), followed by apologies if possible, and lots of trying to figure out what had just happened.

Knowing exactly what's going on inside me - that it's not a "bad temper" or anger problem, etc. - has led me to finding solutions that are working, finally.

[LaurelLeaves]

He definitely doesn't feel safe at work.  And there's no way out of that.  He's worked himself into a higher management position, and the truth of higher management people is... well... they have a lot in common, so work is not the safest of places.   I am not working.  We have debts.  And jobs like his don't grow on trees.  We have moved around a lot for him to have a high paying job.

He also doesn't feel safe at home. He blames me for a lot of things.  In fact, I think deep down he wants me to go away.  But he can't say that because saying that would make him the "bad person"; I've got to be the bad person who "wrecked the family" by separating from him.   

But i don't have a job.  I've tried and tried to find work.  No luck.  Without a job I won't be able to rent a room somewhere.

[BlancaLap]

LaurelLeaves I don't know what to say... feeling safe is the first step but it seems impossible in your position. Maybe you can make an agreement. Whenever you feel threatened or bad, you say: "I need time for myself" and you go for a walk or something, but having some sort of code with which you can communicate whenever is going to be an argument is helpful...

[Rainagain]

After 24 years of marriage you have more history together than your husbands issues.

If he has a high pressure, high paid job and debts then there is a lot there to look at for starters.

Maybe marriage guidance is an option?

Whatever you are being blamed for is easier to defuse with a referee, just a thought.

[LaurelLeaves]

 Rainagain, marriage guidance is not an option.  He won't.  These fight-types don't readily accept that.

I emailed him last night saying that if he wants, since I don't have job and thereby can't move out,  I could live in the shed in exchange for chores like cleaning.    It's not as bad as it sounds; we've got a luxurious 12'X12' shed with electricity and wi/fi, and it's full of my tools... I like being there.

He hasn't responded; but he rarely does.  I usually have arguments with him online because that gives us time to think about what we say, and also... you can't go back and say you didn't say that.   So he may be mulling on it.  Or he may be totally ignoring it.

[Three Roses]

These fight-types don't readily accept that.

I'm not saying he would accept marriage counseling but I welcomed it, pushed for it even. Idk, maybe I'm not so geared toward the fight reaction as he is. Just thought I'd add that.

[LaurelLeaves]

I'm not saying he would accept marriage counseling but I welcomed it, pushed for it even. Idk, maybe I'm not so geared toward the fight reaction as he is. Just thought I'd add that.

Yes, I think he is much more geared for fight that you.  He projects the inner critic's perfectionistic processes onto others all the time, just like Peter Walker said.  Therefore HE can never be wrong, and he would not like to go to a councilor who might suggest he is.

He is the C-ptsd Fight/Fawn that some people would call a covert narcissist.   I prefer the newer term that understands where it comes from, and is less stigmatizing. 

[Blueberry]

LaurelLeaves, just wanted to say I feel for you, though I don't have an answer. I go into unhealthy fight mode sometimes but it's not my primary mode.

[ah]

Hi LaurelLeaves,

I wish I had an answer too. I go into unhealthy fight mode too, absolutely.

Just my two cents:

Your experience may be very different from mine, but I personally feel narcissism and cptsd's fight response are two very different things.
So many of us were / are hurt by others repeatedly, but we don't go around hurting others as a matter of habit. I can fight very strongly when I'm triggered, but my baseline behavior and emotion is empathy. When I fight I feel bad about it, I do everything I can to calm down, I own it, apologize, make amends when and where I can (even if not very skillfully, my attempts at making amends are overt).

When there's conflict I try to talk and understand. I self educate. I constantly put a lot of effort into learning to manage my trauma and pain. If I had the chance for therapy I'd grab it with both hands. And when I'm not triggered I don't fight. I never fight out of boredom or because I enjoy fighting. I enjoy loving, not fighting. When someone tells me I hurt them I try everything to never repeat that behavior again.

I'd never want to hurt anybody, but some people really do. Not all fighting stems from low self esteem. In my experience some people can fight because they enjoy it, because their self esteem is so unrealistically high that they feel entitled to just about anything, and they can sometimes use others to get what they want. If someone acts this way shamelessly, when they're so geared for fight that it's their baseline habitual behavior, and empathy doesn't keep it in check, I'd feel

You're kind hearted, you feel compassion for him. That's one thing. The other is that he's an adult and he's accountable when and if he hurts others over and over again.

Personally, I care more about whether his behavior is hurtful here and now, and less about why or how he got there. If he lacks the self awareness and motivation to change, if he hurts you and feels he's always right as he keeps at it... that breaks my heart.
You deserve to be treated with respect and kindness, and love. 

[Kizzie]

I have to say I agree with Ah's take that there is a difference between a NPD and CPTSD fight response LaurelLeaves. I have gone into fight mode in my life but never with the intent of hurting the other person, it was all about expressing my anger and backing them off from hurting/abusing me.   I do not lash out and put the other person down, or any of the things my FOO (covert NPD),  have done with me in my life (e.g., FOG me, gaslight, initiate a smear campaign).  And like Ah I don't fight if I am not in a triggering situation where I feel I must fight to survive.

The N's in my life seem to need to do so in part I think  because as one member suggested in a post recently, it is better to be the one doing the bullying than be the one being bullied.  In other words they tend to see the world as full of people who will hurt them so they need always to be in control. "Smelling the fear" as the member wrote, or sensing doubt/guilt/whatever of others makes them feel safer.  In my case it makes me reach out and offer compassion - big difference.

One other thing I really agree with Ah is this (especially the last sentence):

You're kind hearted, you feel compassion for him. That's one thing. The other is that he's an adult and he's accountable when and if he hurts others over and over again.  If he lacks the self awareness and motivation to change, if he hurts you and feels he's always right as he keeps at it... that breaks my heart. You deserve to be treated with respect and kindness, and love.

You may want to start thinking about putting boundaries in place that require he not treat you as he has been.   Whether or not he chooses to change is another thing, but at least you will not be subjected to traumatizing behaviour and you will be treating yourself with respect as well as compassion, kindness and love.   

Just my thoughts, take what's useful and leave the rest

[Blueberry]

One other thing I really agree with Ah is this (especially the last sentence):

You're kind hearted, you feel compassion for him. That's one thing. The other is that he's an adult and he's accountable when and if he hurts others over and over again.  If he lacks the self awareness and motivation to change, if he hurts you and feels he's always right as he keeps at it... that breaks my heart. You deserve to be treated with respect and kindness, and love.

You may want to start thinking about putting boundaries in place that require he not treat you as he has been.   Whether or not he chooses to change is another thing, but at least you will not be subjected to traumatizing behaviour and you will be treating yourself with respect as well as compassion, kindness and love.   

Just my thoughts, take what's useful and leave the rest

I also really agree with ah's quote here! I had Kizzie's idea in mind, roughly, but didn'T dare post for whatever reason. So just seconding it here.

Reading this thread has been really useful for me. It hurt me for you to read what is happening to you, and then I realised why: I'm still allowing FOO to hurt me mentally because the original boundaries I set a couple of years ago were not clear enough for FOO.

[PaperClip]

I know when I feel loved and mostly when I feel safe.  This happened in increments, first with my 2nd brief marriage.  That man was a narcissist, but his love-bombing me was something new.  Sad that I had never experienced attention before that.   I noticed myself doing things that wasn't right for him and I stopped.

I didn't have more revelations until my present husband.  Because I am super safe with him, he's gotten the worst of me.  Isn't that awful?  Just awful, but it's true.  I try so hard for me (and my kids). 

I ask him how he puts up with me.  "Because you're so much better than the others."

Right now it doesn't feel like I'm doing better because the pain is raw but I've been making some serious progress. 

I keep reminding myself this ....