Brainwashing...?

[Rain]

Thank you, Cat and keepfighting!    Perfect timing with these resources for me.

[schrödinger's cat]

I once asked my T if she thought there was anything 'me', anything truly 'authentic' left to be found at all - what with being raised in a NPD-ed family and in a cult. She said: "Yes, there is. It's like a little gem that was so precious to you that you protected it with all the strength that was in you and you let no one touch it or destroy it."

Oh wow, I'm close to tears. Thanks for sharing that. That's such a wonderful way of looking at it. True, too.

[spryte]

I came across something a while back that was incredibly helpful to me in understanding the "brainwashing" that went on in my family. This wasn't necessarily the intentional kind that results in power and control, but the kind that happens when your family teaches you, in implicit ways, that "hurtful actions" = "love".

This podcast isn't directly related to abuse, or healing from abuse, and in fact I think in the end he wraps it up with equating how this mentality gets translated into indoctrination by the State - political stuff, but he does do a lot of FOO work because he believes that a lot of the dependence on the State starts with the abuses in our families. (I don't agree with some of his stuff - he basically thinks ALL parents are abusive - but THIS podcast was like...paradigm altering for me.) I refer to the invisible apple all the time and it makes so much sense in regards to abusive people teaching us that their abuse = love and how that influences the ways that we interact with the world. 

I'd love to know if anyone else listens to it/reads the transcript and gets the same thing out of it that I did.

Here's the transcript - http://freedomain.blogspot.com/2007/12/transcript-of-freedomain-radio-podcast.html
Here's the video podcast - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxYJOBaXQww

[bheart]

Hello spryte, and welcome 

Thank you for posting these links.  Yes, listening did make sense for me relating it to the struggles I have had and my lack of self-worth and especially in not  belonging (feeling the odd man out). It definitely provides a different perspective.   

[Badmemories]

Thank You all for the links and help.

I have been reading 3 books I think will help me.

• Why Does He Do That?: Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men
• Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder
• Who's Pulling Your Strings?: How to Break the Cycle of Manipulation and Regain Control of Your Life

I have read some out of the 1+3 I just got #2.

[Badmemories]

There was a website called Mosaic. A site to determine how dangerous that the situation is living/being with someone abusive is. I scored an 8 out of 10. when You are finished it shows all the dangerous answers that you have given. It really makes it real.

I think that at times that we minimize how bad the abuse really is. I remember at one time in My life I'd look around and compare Myself to other women... I always came out last because I had some flaw!.Abuse is like that We can always see someone that HAS been/or is being abused worse!

I said to uNPDH a while back How something he did was emotionally abusive. On Thursday he told me I was abusive because I did not take care of him like he should be taken care of. He does all the cooking, cleaning, etc. and he should come home (from the street of Our trailer court. ) and has to do everything! THAT I WAS EMOTIONALLY ABUSIVE! Yes I quit doing anything around the house. Why should I do anything when You BI#%H at me on how bad I do anything! He'd stand over me and watch everything I did and tell me the whole time how I needed to do it his way.

He raged at me a hour before I was supposed to call Social Security on My claim. I was in a real panic attack by then! I told him how do You expect me to function when You rage at me? Then He goes through the same thing I am a Pisces and I am always going one way or another and never settled. ( I guess that is how they explain abuse in his family. ) The only thing You are good for is sex and I could buy that! Honestly when he does this I blank out. (freeze) then I hear how I am not listening to him! He used to punch me in the face when I wouldn't answer! (15 years ago) I did call SS disability after awhile,but his rage sure added stress to a stressful situation.

The rages and then the calm after the rages when he has a motor mouth... are brainwashing to me. he tells me how bad I am, how stupid I am, How much he has done for me.  i don't even hear it most of the time.  Since I am in a freeze mode then I blank it out! Then He yells about My mental illness and How I need to just trust in the LORD crap! (hey I am a Christian too) funny how they can even twist the word of G-d to make themselves right.

One of the preachers on TV we both like had a series on Husband and Wives. My Husband had to sit with me and make sure I heard all the stuff wives are supposed to do... he usually tapes all the sermons of this one preacher. He had erased ALL the sermons on what Husbands were supposed to do! Then during the whole sermon on wives he'd keep saying see... that is what I was telling you!  You never do this for me... etc.

Hopefully, I didn't Hi-jack this thread..I am talking about brainwashing... but more in a practical way on HOW it is done!

[schrödinger's cat]

No no no, you didn't hijack anything, I'd started this thread expressly to see if this had happened to anyone else. And holy sh*t has it ever happened to you, from the sounds of it. This sounds like simply just daily life at your place is like fingernails screeching down a blackboard. Or worse. Definitely worse. I don't even know what to say. Other than "RUNNNN!!" that is. I'm sure your husband has his good sides, or you'd never have married him, and he's probably a damaged person, but he sounds like he's being a real carbuncle. This was just chilling to read.

[Rain]

Badmemories, this is severe abuse, it seems to me, that you are going through.  This is only something to think about, and nothing to answer on ...if you read your post like it was someone else's post, what would you advice them to do?

[Badmemories]

It is like I said on one post I would have RUN from this behavior before... I don't know why I don't run now...

I do have a plan though. I filed for My SSDI I am eligible to get about 1300. from that, and I have $533. pension. that gives me $1800. that I can live on... I am an easy keeper that is a lot of money for me. I got My kids taking pretty good care of themselves now. 27 Son, and Daughter struggling financially but I babysit and that saves her a lot.

So, although uNPDH lives in this town. I am thinking of renting an apt in My daughters building. That way I can be close to the granddaughters. They do allow pets in this building. So I can have My Dogs. I have been thinking about starting to move things out of My trailer and start moving it slowly into her Apt. I think IF I AM close to him he won't mind to much...(I stay over here most of the time anyway).

Then If I can get help to fix My trailer I can sell it, with some of the lump sum I get from ssdi and that will help to pay down the payment on MY house. I can get the house close to free and clear.  Then I'd like to make a small move to go to a climate I can live in in the winter. I am thinking about Washington state. I see that some campsites that accept camper trailers in WA. that don't charge much by the month. If I bought a camper trailer then I could winter there pretty cheap. I thought I'd try it that way at first and IF i didn't like living there IT wouldn't hurt to much financially. If I do like living there then I could buy a Mobile home later with more space.

My problem right now is sorting through stuff ( think hoarding without the garbage) uNPDH is yelling about a trailer I own that I have stored things in for years... I have been trying, but not getting to far. I am having problems with grief doing this. Many beautiful things that I had hoped that we'd have a life together. uNPDH is yelling at me all the time for it and trying to get me to work on it. and I just get depressed and sleep for hours on end...more of that freeze syndrome

I am reading the book on splitting with a NPDH at least I started... Divorce is going to be *! My husband put me in a real financial bind. He filed taxes a lone single married. I was paying fro the business thinking it would come off My taxes, and Now I have to file at least since 2006 and I will owe big money. I did read that all bills come out of the Money so I am thinking If he wants to keep the trailer court that I can ask him to file and join out taxes like they should be. I lost head of household and his deduction, and his deduction...and on top of that filing Married single puts YOU IN A HIGH tax bracket. Maybe he will refile when He finds out that those bills will be taken out of what he conceives is his money!

Fear freezes me a lot. First since the kids father sexually abused them. I was afraid to leave for fear that HE'D end up with the kids... then when they got out of the house I worked and made all this money and he threatened to sue me for alimony! So I did not think about moving out then. Then I was forced to retire, so now I am dependant on him somewhat.. so I am waiting for SSDI to roll in and then I will have more money to deal with!

We have been separated since 2011 on paper. I guess I need to study more on out of the fog on fear... Reading all this stuff I have been reading is actually making me more fearful!l  Fear=freeze for me. 

I have been thinking about going to the abuse person here and getting counseling. I tried a while back to call the number for my county and she never got back to me 

I did see on the National Mental health site there is free counseling only 35 miles away from me.. I am thinking of starting that. I have the contact person on a computer post-it.

One of the problems I have is I try to do something... for instance I finally broke out of My shell and went to pharmacy to get My meds, and then MOST OF THEM were not allowed by MY new insurance.. so then It actually toke me over a month to get the meds I needed. I try and take a step forward and then I have so many problems with that step forward, and then end up going backwards. It is so frustrating to me! It makes it hard for me... so much to do...

Then this thread has been quit an eye opener for me.. I am going through the freeze more, and then I am starting to wake-up more and realize I AM IN DANGER! I minimized it a lot I think!

Thank You all for Your answers and hope! It is helpful to me! The One part of leaving an abusive person is when YOU LEAVE is the MOST DANGEROUS so right now I am safe somewhat. He has NOT physically abused me for 15 Years. So, I am biding my time, putting My ducks in a row, and trying to get emotionally ready for this. I am so thankful for this site and OOTF it is getting me closer to MY goal. I am healing not at a fast pace. Do we ever heal from CPTSD fast? I don't think so.

[Rain]

Send you a big hug, Badmemories.   

Thank you for sharing where you are at, what you are going through, hopes, plans, barriers, possibilities.

I do hope you sit down with a professional and work through all of this.   We are here to support you, but there has got to be a professional(s) there that can guide you on this.   

[zazu]

I hope it's okay to resurrect this thread. It triggered some thoughts for me...

I also noticed the similarity between cult brainwashing and my FOO's behavior some time ago.  It's made me feel deep compassion for those who had been in an actual religious cult...well, actually I always had that compassion, even as a child, so perhaps unconsciously I knew more than I realized at the time.

Anyway, someone I know was in an organization commonly identified as a "destructive cult" for many years. He was brutally abused, and also admits to abusing others in the service of the cult. The members (including himself) would take the abuse, submit to beatings, imprisonment, being deprived of food, etc, because they believed they deserved it. Even when they could have walked free.

Many people who have never lived in an abusive situation have a hard time understanding that, but to me (and I'm sure others here) it makes perfect sense how that could happen. Brainwashing is brainwashing, whether it's family or government or religious group. 

This person eventually escaped, although he had to finally hit bottom before he felt he could run for it. I asked him how long it took before he really felt free. He said it was 5 years before he stopped waking up in a panic thinking he was "back there", and the programming started losing its hold. Now his life seems more or less "normal" (whatever that is). Speaking out in public as an activist has helped the process, too, I think.

I know 5 years might seem like a long time, but compared to how long some of us have been living with this, 5 years doesn't sound so bad. To know that these miserable feelings could have an end, that the brainwashing could eventually fall away, with a little work - that gives me hope.

And this might sound kind of weird, but it also helps me, personally, to remember that while people like my friend were threatened with losing their eternal life and failing the entire universe if they did not submit to their leader's will, I just have to fear one crabby old woman who isn't even especially clever. I mean, she may think she's the queen of the universe, but she's not, not by a long shot.   Not meaning to make light of anyone's suffering, it just helps me to keep my own situation in perspective.

[schrödinger's cat]

And this might sound kind of weird, but it also helps me, personally, to remember that while people like my friend were threatened with losing their eternal life and failing the entire universe if they did not submit to their leader's will, I just have to fear one crabby old woman who isn't even especially clever. I mean, she may think she's the queen of the universe, but she's not, not by a long shot.   Not meaning to make light of anyone's suffering, it just helps me to keep my own situation in perspective.

This made me laugh. Thank you, I really needed this.

I keep on sliding back into my old mindset, the one from way back when I was a child and a teen, when the least passive-aggressive or abusive thing they said to me was always so earth-shatteringly important. And it's not. Not anymore.

[keepfighting]

Hi, zazu,

nice to meet you on this forum  .

So sorry to read that a friend of yours was also victimized by a cult. I'm glad he made his way out of the cult itself and out of the cult brainwashing later on. It's a hard and lonely road and not many people understand or are willing to listen and not judge. It's nice that he found such a person in you!

Hope you'll also be able to break free from your one and only queen of the universe .

Best wishes, kf

[coda]

I came across something a while back that was incredibly helpful to me in understanding the "brainwashing" that went on in my family. This wasn't necessarily the intentional kind that results in power and control, but the kind that happens when your family teaches you, in implicit ways, that "hurtful actions" = "love".

....

Here's the transcript - http://freedomain.blogspot.com/2007/12/transcript-of-freedomain-radio-podcast.html
 

spryte! Thank you so much for this link. Though I have to admit some of his diversions seemed extreme to me, his core message -- that the apple that does not exist but the the child is coerced to agree it does -- struck me as brilliant, absolutely true and SO helpful. That's exactly how it was (and still is) for me. You buy into the lie or suffer the consequences.

I think what resonated most of all was the notion of virtue and morality:

The problem that power has is not with other people who want power, but rather with people who are moral.

Morality is the opposite of power. Morality is the opposite of dominance. Morality is the opposite of subjugation, or exploitation, because morality is all about finding what is common and true in the world – common to all human beings and true empirically and also biologically – and therefore it's not about subjugation, because it is creating one rule for everyone, and the only way that you can have subjugation or exploitation is if you create different rules for different people.
 
So much of my life has been spent trying to square my sense of what's ethical, good, right with the actual behavior (not the words) of my FOO. There's no apple.

[Badmemories]

Coda wrote:

Morality is the opposite of power. Morality is the opposite of dominance. Morality is the opposite of subjugation, or exploitation, because morality is all about finding what is common and true in the world – common to all human beings and true empirically and also biologically – and therefore it's not about subjugation, because it is creating one rule for everyone, and the only way that you can have subjugation or exploitation is if you create different rules for different people.

When My children were little I taught them than RESPECT was earned. I taught them that They could NOT DISRESPECT anyone because we are all human. the trailer home court that i owned has always had a combination of various people from different stages of rejection in their life. Some heavy drug users, some drunks, some mentally Ill. Although I trusted most of the tenants... I did not like how they felt like they could order MY children around. I always forbid them to get beer out of the refrigerator, I wouldn't let them pass cigarettes for some ( when they should have got off their butts and got the  things for themselves.)

I taught My kids that they were not the subjects of anyone but me and uNPDH. Hubby was very opposed to My line of thinking. He thought that Adults were GODS... and that children were servants.. He felt like I was not teaching them to respect their elders.

IMHO I think that When kids are taught to respect all adults etc..then when they get into situations that are not good for them, then the lesson to respect becomes the idea in the child's mind is that they have to DO WHATEVER THEY ARE TOLD TO DO, by anybody. i know In My life as a child some of the molestation incidents happened to me because I did not know how to say NO to an adult. They were GODS! As a child sometimes it was even worse. in the 50's. When I grew up the adults told on You and got You in trouble with YOUR parents. Any minor infraction was known by the whole small community and You might get in trouble with all of them.

I'm not really sure where this is going... but just wanted to throw it out there for You all to think about!