Anger at Covid Deniers.

[Blueberry]

I'm feeling angry at Covid deniers now too. My country is slowly moving out of the partial lockdown it was in. I mean our lockdown wasn't like in Spain or Italy where even children couldn't leave the house for about 6 weeks - which is really hard for all those without a garden. Whereas here - family bike rides, family walks - all fine so long as the family keeps distance from any people they don't live with. We have to wear cloth masks on public transport or in shops and we're meant to keep 1.5 - 2 metre distance from others, but plenty of people are beginning not to bother, or never have bothered. The cloth masks or other face-covering we are meant to wear helps those around us so it only works if everybody wears it, and not everybody does. I've even been made fun of for wearing cloth masks.

I'm slightly triggered because FOO especially M used to be very derisive about my 'gullibility' and I think that's what people around me think about us mask-wearers. 

[Phoebes]

Blueberry, this is definitely a time where everyone seems to be living our their true feelings. The way I see it is, scientists and doctors are learning more and more each day about how this virus behaves. I'm feeling a bit better that my immune is pretty good, but even more alarmed at how many could be asymptomatic, including myself. I don't feel fearful, but I feel like it's not courteous or thoughtful of others to o around in close quarters with no mask just yet.

I just think, ya know, do what's necessary, grocery-wise, wear a mask in public around people as a courtesy and safety precaution. It couldn't hurt if everyone would do it. People who don't show themselves to truly be either know-it-alls or in complete denial. I'm lucky I don't live in one of those hostile places in the US, but there are a few people like that around. Anyway, just like everything else, there's all kinds running around and only a few can be trusted. 

Some of my family is so whacked out now I would take it as a compliment if they made fun of me...if we were speaking. 

[Kizzie]

I posted this article elsewhere but this thread seems like a good place to post it again.  How Narcissists Use DARVO to Escape Accountability Apr 2020.

It has been incomprehensible to me why anyone would support the racist, misogynistic, cruel N behaviour of a leader including denying and minimizing a deadly virus but the article explained so much. I knew about the techniques N's use (i.e., DARVO) but not that they would/could have such a collective appeal or impact.  (Note: I am not talking about the politics of DJT, it is his NPD behaviour and in this case how it affects others.)

DARVO as a collective grooming tactic

The cognitive distortions created by DARVO cultivate an ecosystem of moral corruption. Members of the peer group are encouraged by the narcissist to engage in polarized or black and white thinking.

The group's empathy for the narcissist is weaponized and used to encourage negative biases about the recipient of the abuse. Narcissists, psychopaths and other manipulators do this in order to ensure that members of the dominant clique become indifferent and callous about the betrayal of the survivor.

The desensitization of the group opens the door to the objectification of the targeted individual and once this is accomplished every kind of violence becomes acceptable. Examples of this can be seen in manifestations of anti-semitism, racism, sexism and homophobia.

Why do bystanders participate in collective betrayal?

According to Dr. Freyd betrayal blindness is a survival mechanism that arises "when awareness would threaten necessary relationships." In other words, bystanders yield to betrayal blindness in the interest of looking out for themselves and to avoid the loss or pain they might risk if they sympathized with the target.

They assign more value to their relationship with the abuser so it follows that it's in their best interest to empathize with the narcissist not with the survivor. In fact, in many cases bystanders may stand to gain more social capital if they lend their support to the narcissist. So it is usually a combination of greed for gain and an instinct for self-preservation that eclipses any ethical or moral considerations in the bystander.  In other words, members of the clique adapt to conflict within the group by "turning a blind eye," to the harmful behaviors of the narcissist.

As to what can be done other than going no contact which in this case an entire nation and for that matter the world cannot do, is to take him out of power. Tragically that doesn't look like it will happen until Nov so many more will become sick and lose their lives as a result.   

[sanmagic7]

i'm voting for the first time in nearly 20 years - most of that time spent in mexico, so i couldn't participate in the past presidential election.

i'm hearing about so many cities in the u.s. reopening, and images of people walking around, maskless, not keeping a safe distance, recklessly demonstrating their disdain for safety measures orders from above to reopen factories where the virus has already taken its toll - the frustration and anger about all this is nearly incomprehensible and unbearable for me.  i've already resigned myself to basically being isolated for a very long time - maybe years.  i'm extremely vulnerable, both by age and damaged lungs, so i don't care what others think - i keep my distance from everyone, don't go into enclosed places, like stores, and if our farmers market opens up and my d and i participate, selling our books, oh, yes, i'll be wearing a mask and have disinfectant on our table.  it's outdoors and our table will help keep a distance between us and customrers.

i also understand that there may never be a vaccine for this particular virus, just like there is none for the common cold or HIV - both of which have been around for many, many years.  i'm resigned to that, and i'm ok with it.  but, i will definitely keep my distance until it's safe for me not to.  which may be never.  i don't see this as over yet, and i also don't see any leadership for many of the states, let alone people themselves denying what this is all about. 

DARVO is one of the worst manipulations i've come across, and it's been used on me personally several times.  this whole situation stinks.  i just wonder what the toll has to be before both leaders and citizens take this seriously.

[Phoebes]

Kizzie, that makes so much sense. Not only on a personal level but governmental level. I've always thought there is a lot of secrecy and things going on in government that isn't in the best interest of the people.

Maybe I just have a built in monitor for things never being what they seem, and you never know what's happening behind closed doors. You will always see one face in public and a quite different one behind the scenes. The people who are supposed to "know" things don't, and often don't have your best interest in mind. They would just as soon squash you as a bug. It all goes together. Gee I don't know why that is the lens through which I see people.

And as far as what is behind this covid thing...this is an eye-opener for sure if anyone's interested:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsuCa6V7prg&feature=youtu.be

[Kizzie]

I did see the video yesterday but it had been taken down when I went back to day.  Interesting that it was removed. It sure fired up the Internet and Twitter though so hopefully we'll get some more info so we can decide whether it was factual or not. 

The thing we do need to focus on here of course isn't the politics, but the way situations like the pandemic and the way people are behaving affect our CPTSD symptoms.  I spent my session yesterday talking with my T about how difficult it was to calm my system when there are so many  ignoring physical distancing, demonstrating for quick re-opening, ignoring the science, etc.  For me they are a very real danger right now in the present.  I do know though that it relates to my past trauma because people are putting themselves ahead of me as was the case in my family.  I can understand needing to work, it's the wanting haircuts and to go to the nail salon that breaks my heart because it smacks of the sense of entitlement my NPD family had/has and the lack of regard for others. I've even seen articles/comments about how certain lives matter more than others - which is the message I got throughout childhood. "You do not matter."  So my system is on high alert understandably.

Another difficult thing to deal with is the distortion of reality based on what deniers want, and the attacks they launch on anyone who speaks up to them.  Just like in my home and why it takes a LOT for me to speak out but I do because I feel I must or these folks will only get worse.  Plus I'm an adult now and do have power although there are days I feel I am screaming into the abyss. 

[Phoebes]

I definitely relate to everything you said, Kizzie. It would be one thing if an actual respectful conversation based on facts could come out of it, but it always seems the ones who think so highly of themselves are the loudest and who ultimately get their way. No matter the facts, they seem to feel entitled to scream their opinion and views onto other but others aren't allowed. This definitely reflects directly with my family dynamic.

It's funny about the hair and nails...it did spark some flashbacks in me..can people not just deal with their hair and not expect it to be a certain way? I have a cousin who didn't participate in her sister's Zoom 50th birthday party because "people would see her roots." She would have been the only one to notice or care in our group.

Nm and GCs are very overly concerned IMO about hair, nails and make-up. It has to be right. All the time. Growing up, from early childhood through high school I got myself up at 6, went directly to the kitchen and poured myself a bowl of cereal, read the cereal box while eating (it was always one of two brands), and then got ready and went to school. This to me was normal-never thought anything of it.

But now, I think, Nm was up at 5:15, and took 2.5 hours per morning locked in her bathroom doing hair and make-up, always dressed to the "t" when leaving. She interacted with me to approve of my clothes, hair and later, make-up. I didn't have the choices kids have now to just be themselves. I think, most people I know make different things for breakfast and at least interact in the kitchen about breakfast. There may be eggs, or waffles, or bacon, or yogurt, or fruit. Not the same cereal every day for 13 years.

All the while, interacting with Nm over appearance was never a fun mother-daughter activity or way to connect. It was just another area where she made the rules and called the shots, and I had to comply or it got very abusive. So, any time I head about hair and nails, all of this and the specifics comes to mind. I feel like every single thing in life is attached to triggers, and I realize more and more how abnormal and utterly unloving everything was.

[Kizzie]

It would be one thing if an actual respectful conversation based on facts could come out of it, but it always seems the ones who think so highly of themselves are the loudest and who ultimately get their way. No matter the facts, they seem to feel entitled to scream their opinion and views onto other but others aren't allowed. This definitely reflects directly with my family dynamic.

It's entitlement gone amuck and they keep on doing it because by bullying they often do get away with it. All that matters is what they want when they want it and heaven help you if you stand in their way. My family was often more covert about this (e.g., if my M didn't want to hear something I was saying she would just start talking over me), but it was definitely the same bottom line. If I pushed things out would come the N rage, smear campaigning, FOG, etc., all to shut me down.     

In terms of N vanity, my F used to spend an hour or more every morning in the bathroom and when we lived in houses with only one bathroom that could be a problem for a child with a nervous bladder.  I remember being afraid to knock on the door because he would be so po'd, like I was asking for the moon.

When my son graduated 2 years ago I remember my M having a bit of an N moment because no-one had taken a picture in her new outfit. There was always a requirement to admire any and all new clothing and I had forgotten the 'rule' in the excitement of the day apparently. 

Anyway, tired of flattering, coddling, giving in to bullying and vanity and all the rest of the hurtful nonsense of NPD behaviour from anyone, but finding it especially hard to deal with in a pandemic.

[Phoebes]

 

[I like vanilla]

We have to wear cloth masks on public transport or in shops and we're meant to keep 1.5 - 2 metre distance from others, but plenty of people are beginning not to bother, or never have bothered. The cloth masks or other face-covering we are meant to wear helps those around us so it only works if everybody wears it, and not everybody does. I've even been made fun of for wearing cloth masks.

I'm slightly triggered because FOO especially M used to be very derisive about my 'gullibility' and I think that's what people around me think about us mask-wearers. 

I hear where you are coming from but object to the idea that those of us not wearing masks must be 'in denial' or 'not bothering'. I have extremely good reasons for NOT wearing a mask. Terrible things were done to me in childhood and having to wear a mask now is HUGELY TRIGGERING FOR ME. I feel angry that people assume that my not wearing a mask is because I don't care or can't be bothered. I don't wear a mask because I would like to stay in my body and not have to deal with emotional flashbacks for days afterward.

Fortunately, where I live the person in charge of public health recommends masks but is adamant that she would never mandate them because many people have very good reasons for not being able to wear one. Unfortunately a number of businesses have been mandating it for entry to their location, and I fear the more will follow their lead, narrowing my already too narrow world even more and making it impossible for me to accomplish the simplest tasks such as getting groceries or doing my laundry (I go to a location outside my apartment building), etc.

Consider that many of us have VERY GOOD REASONS FOR NOT WEARING A MASK. Reasons that have NOTHING to do with being uncaring or lazy. This physical-distancing has been very difficult for me - for all of us - financially, emotionally, psychologically, spiritually and physically. I am really disappointed that on this type of site, of all places, I need to explain that mental health matters and that triggers are real, and that judging people for things you do not understand is patently unfair. Many of us have good reasons for not wearing masks and those reasons have nothing to do with apathy or laziness.

[marta1234]

I hear where you are coming from but object to the idea that those of us not wearing masks must be 'in denial' or 'not bothering'. I have extremely good reasons for NOT wearing a mask. Terrible things were done to me in childhood and having to wear a mask now is HUGELY TRIGGERING FOR ME. I feel angry that people assume that my not wearing a mask is because I don't care or can't be bothered. I don't wear a mask because I would like to stay in my body and not have to deal with emotional flashbacks for days afterward.

Fortunately, where I live the person in charge of public health recommends masks but is adamant that she would never mandate them because many people have very good reasons for not being able to wear one. Unfortunately a number of businesses have been mandating it for entry to their location, and I fear the more will follow their lead, narrowing my already too narrow world even more and making it impossible for me to accomplish the simplest tasks such as getting groceries or doing my laundry (I go to a location outside my apartment building), etc.

Consider that many of us have VERY GOOD REASONS FOR NOT WEARING A MASK. Reasons that have NOTHING to do with being uncaring or lazy. This physical-distancing has been very difficult for me - for all of us - financially, emotionally, psychologically, spiritually and physically. I am really disappointed that on this type of site, of all places, I need to explain that mental health matters and that triggers are real, and that judging people for things you do not understand is patently unfair. Many of us have good reasons for not wearing masks and those reasons have nothing to do with apathy or laziness.

I am so sorry that you're feeling this way, and that you have to go through this everyday. I agree with your point, and I personally feel that judgement shouldn't be made that easily, especially at times like these when people are most on edge with safety for their health. I don't know what else to say but send you support if it's ok (and if not, it's completely ok).

[Blueberry]

I hear where you are coming from but object to the idea that those of us not wearing masks must be 'in denial' or 'not bothering'. I have extremely good reasons for NOT wearing a mask. Terrible things were done to me in childhood and having to wear a mask now is HUGELY TRIGGERING FOR ME. I feel angry that people assume that my not wearing a mask is because I don't care or can't be bothered. I don't wear a mask because I would like to stay in my body and not have to deal with emotional flashbacks for days afterward.

Consider that many of us have VERY GOOD REASONS FOR NOT WEARING A MASK. Reasons that have NOTHING to do with being uncaring or lazy. This physical-distancing has been very difficult for me - for all of us - financially, emotionally, psychologically, spiritually and physically. I am really disappointed that on this type of site, of all places, I need to explain that mental health matters and that triggers are real, and that judging people for things you do not understand is patently unfair. Many of us have good reasons for not wearing masks and those reasons have nothing to do with apathy or laziness.

I get what you're saying and I'm sorry that my post triggered you. However there is a lot of denial round about on Covid. Just think of a certain number of well-known English-speaking politicians... I doubt they leave masks off and shake hands etc because they know they're about to get an EF. The business owner next door to me says "I'm not frightened, I don't need to wear a mask." We pass in the same narrow corridor. I can't avoid him, nor can my clients.

In my post which you replied to, I wrote that I'm triggered about being ridiculed for wearing a mask - which has happened a few times - and for worrying that people think I'm gullible for believing that I need to wear one. That's a very big trigger for me. So I DO understand about mental health issues and wanting to avoid EFs. I have cptsd too!!
ime people with cptsd can trigger each other. I'm really sorry that my post triggered you, later on today when I have more time I'll look at my original post again and see if I can change it a bit to be less triggering or less judgemental.

[Kizzie]

I hadn't thought it might be a trigger for some of us due to past trauma I Like Vanilla and I'm sorry it is for you given the times right now.    

I would say that for the vast majority of people who choose not to wear a mask, the underlying reason is not this and that's what is upsetting for so many of us. Our very health/lives are at stake and as we're seeing in the US and elsewhere right now COVID spreads when we don't take measures like wearing masks, physical distancing, hand washing, etc.

I've had a similar experience to BBs of being ridiculed for wearing one so it goes both ways. Anger and fear are high right now and we're each likely to be judged for wearing or not wearing a mask. Let's please try and remain a safe place to talk about how CPTSD affects us and be understanding and supportive of one another.   

[Phoebes]

Yep well it happened. I've been very diligent in wearing masks in public (AKA not breathing my droplets into the nearby atmosphere or others to breathe, regardless of how annoying it is). My sister SAYS she was "being careful, but you have to go on living", taking the kids to karate, dance, and shopping for unnecessary things at the stores.

I caved because I wanted to see the kids, I brought one to my house for the week, and two days later my sis has covid. So, my niece was definitely exposed, now I'm exposed. AND, I have a sick sister with a vulnerable child in her home, with no help. I have my potentially infected and vulnerable niece in another city, probably for days or weeks longer than planned (which I'm glad for in the moment.) I had other plans, too, as I only have 3 weeks off before starting back to school. And now, it will likely be in quarantine, and possibly sick, or nursing a sick family member in my tiny house.

If it was random and unexpected it's one thing, but we are in a major hotspot, and I just feel like this was SO unnecessary, and it is because of the disbelieving, "anti-fearful" and UNSCIENTIFIC attitude of the people living in her town, as well as, let's face it, her as well. I feel bad she's sick. but I am also angry. She is younger, and my immune isn't so good. I don't WANT it so I have been doing my part, and she literally said, "well, we're all going to get it eventually, so...." Thanks.

It sucks that there could be triggers involved. The protests trigger some things in me as well. Still, the science is the science. Droplets coming out of the mouth need to be curtailed, and if they can't be, they need to be kept away from people. I decided to venture out to drop some things at goodwill. Instead of letting me put them out on the porch, they had a sign that said pull to the curb and we will get thte stuff out of your trunk. No contact allowed. So I followed that, and the oblivious worker ran right up and put his full upper body in my car, no mask and asked loudly what I want him to take. The stuff in the effin' trunk!! *. I can't even. Sorry.

[Phoebes]

I might also add that I am mad at MYSELF for going against my gut and bringing my niece to my house. I did very much want to see her, but as cases were rising, I had a bad feeling, but I also allowed my sister to somewhat shame me for being so "overly" cautious, and I "already said" for a long time I would keep the kids each for a week, giving her a break, as well as they were already looking forward to it so it would be so disappointing for them now to "go back on my word." In other words, I guess I'm still so co-dependent I'm easily shamed into doing the wrong thing. But if I had said no, and no one had gotten sick, I would be the "liberal who wants to live in fear."