How do you explain no contact without attacking the abuser?

[Rainydaze]

I didn't write a letter explaining no contact to uNF, however 3 years later given that he claims to be clueless about my reasons for no longer having any open lines of communication with him I'm getting to a point where I feel I would like to set this out in stone for him next time he attempts contact. It's for myself as much as anything as I feel so much shame for having just gone quiet and it feels like a big burden. In fact, just lately the shame has been feeling excruciating and I think I'm taking far too much responsiblity for it.

I've just tried writing a draft letter to practise what I might say when the time comes and frankly after only a sentence in I just felt like it was hopeless. I want to get across the point that it was his awful behaviour that led to this and pass the shame back where it should rightfully belong, however it feels impossible to do this without it looking like I'm attacking him...which will just trigger him further. It feels so ridiculous trying to explain to your own parent that being horrible is a valid reason for not wanting to talk to them. My reasoning is as simple as that too, basically: "There were constant occasions where you were very unpleasant to me and showed no signs of remorse or desire to change...I got fed up with it."

Someone with suspected narcissistic personality disorder is just going to feel attacked by that though and go on a rampage. He's got no ability to self-reflect and protects his ego by living out the delusion that he's great and everyone else is the problem. I guess maybe I could say, "I was left feeling sad and hurt by how you had chosen to treat me and saw no prospect of you self-reflecting on your behaviour and choosing to improve it" and leave it at that. I could maybe even suggest that he seeks professional mental help if he is unable to figure it out on his own. Must admit, it feels a bit cheeky (but empowering) saying that.  I really don't see why I should have to spell it out to him though, plus in an ideal world the most healthy, positive thing and a way forward to reconciliation would be for him to seek help. There is no way he ever would, but I might feel better for suggesting it rather than ignoring the elephant in the room and enabling him the way that the rest of the family chooses to. There is no way I am qualified to even scrape the surface of his disorder. He has a LOT of issues that he has never dealt with.

Maybe it's not such a great idea. It's just so frustrating though, I don't see why I should be lumbered with all this shame because he takes no accountability for it. I think I automatically tell myself I'm a bad person for fading away but how can I possibly explain it all without prompting drama or encouraging harrassment? I'm not sure how to feel better about it. I just really feel this is an unfair situation and that I deserve to be heard and tell my truth in response to all his gaslighting, you know? 

[Kizzie]

One thing that may help with the shame is to write down all the reasons you went NC and read that when it rises up in you. We are good people doing something that does not sit well with our values so we need to reinforce why we went/stay NC.

If you do think you'd feel better letting him know why you have chosen to go NC, I like the examples you came up with already - honest, short and to the point.

My suggestion FWIW: "Three years ago I made the decision to end my relationship with you because far too often in my life your behaviour toward me was harmful, abusive even. I reached a point where it became too painful and I saw no possibility of you taking responsibility or changing. It was not an easy decision to end the relationship but I wish you well and ask that you respect my decision not to have any further contact."   

[Blueberry]

I have been through these thoughts again and again blues_cruise and know how excruciating and even maddening they are. My experience has been that whatever I have said / written to FOO over the years has not got through to FOO. I say "over the years" because I have been NC with one FOO mbr and gone back to contact and NC with another and gone back to contact and VLC with almost everybody and gone back to gradually more contact since it had seemed they'd understood and changed until two utterly devastating incidents where it was obvious that they hadn't changed in the least and where it became obvious that I'm still FOO Scapegoat no. 1 aka the family garbage dump. Since then I've been vvvvvvlc with everybody, adding more and more 'v' to that as I realise (1) the depth of dysfunction in FOO and (2) how much it has been damaging me on a daily basis.

I've written a lot of Recovery Letters on here (non-sender letters to FOO mbrs) to get my feelings out. I also read over at OutOfTheFog and sometimes asked questions. I remember one mbr there, who'd gone through similar to me in a way - out of contact, back in, out again several times - saying that FOO can't understand us because it's as if we speak a completely different language to them. Our experiences as we try and make sense of what we went through and the steps we take to heal - it's completely foreign to those who haven't done this type of introspection or taken these steps so it's impossible to say or write anything that they'll understand. I've explained things before and FOO particularly enF claims to be clueless and oh so hurt.  Even me simply stating my boundaries used to be too much for FOO - they 'forgot' or 'got confused'. Needless to say my parents are now older than they were when they 'got confused' and enF though not yet suffering from dementia is getting more forgetful, but they no longer 'forget' that I don't accept phone calls from any FOO mbrs. They still 'don't understand' though and play mind games with me by forgetting other very important information (I'm Exceedingly VLC not NC).

Idk if all families react in detail the way my FOO does but faced with a statement like "There were constant occasions where you were very unpleasant to me and showed no signs of remorse or desire to change...I got fed up with it." certain mbrs of my FOO including both parents attack the statement: they parse the sentence, look for inconsistencies, explain how illogical it is and that I used the wrong words (e.g. do I really mean constant as in 100% or could that be an exaggeration? or 'unpleasant' what does unpleasant mean? give us examples / prove it). By that time I'm so triggered because that's how they acted in my childhood and all through my teen years and later... that I can't do anything for myself except maybe cry or dissociate (in person). If it's by letter, I can handle it better, but it still doesn't change anything on the outside.

This has got rather long but I hope it helps you a bit blues_cruise. It's not on you, it's on them. 

[Jazzy]

I've asked myself this many times trying to deal with my M. So, I'll just share some of what I learned in my situation, and hopefully something will be helpful to you. Sorry if this isn't the best way to post. I have a hard time with giving too much advice/telling people what to do. I try not to be bossy, but sometimes it feels like the only way I know how to talk. Anyway...

I think the most important thing I learned is to re-frame things in my mind, and think about them in terms of an adult/adult relationship, instead of a parent/child relationship. I am extremely lenient with my M, as she is my M, but I still make it a point to think how I would act/feel if someone I wasn't related to was acting as she did. If nothing else, this helps me to keep things from getting too far out of hand.

Another thing is that I don't owe M an explanation for LC/NC. A relationship (and contact) requires both parties to be involved. She is just as involved as I am, and should be able to figure things out by taking just a minute to reflect on the situation and the history. The fact that she really can't figure it out shows just how bad her NPD is/how disconnected from the real world she really is. That's unfortunate, and sad, but ultimately not my responsibility.

Attempting to explain why LC/NC was just another opportunity for more gas lighting/abuse, and no matter what/how I said things, she was going to feel attacked. It took me many years to realize this, and it never went well for me until I accepted this, and was prepared for it before I said anything.

IME, it is far easier to write it down in a letter or email rather than talk about it. Verbally arguing/talking back/discussing with M is impossible for me. It also isn't a conversation (unless you want it to be, of course), and a notice in writing gives far less opportunity for rebuttal/interjection.

There is also the old trick of "using I statements". "I felt hurt" is less hostile than "you hurt me". I realize this really is downplaying what was done, and I only mention it because it may help in a situation like this to make the LC/NC explanation a little easier. Otherwise, I wouldn't recommend such a thing, especially when trying to resolve a problem.

That's about all I have to offer. This is a really difficult situation, but I hope you find some peace with however you proceed. Whatever happens, you will get past this and continue on with your life, so I hope it does not become too overwhelming between now and then. Wishing you strength, peaceful thoughts, and hugs if you'd like.  All the best!

[Kizzie]

Idk if all families react in detail the way my FOO does but faced with a statement like "There were constant occasions where you were very unpleasant to me and showed no signs of remorse or desire to change...I got fed up with it." certain mbrs of my FOO including both parents attack the statement: they parse the sentence, look for inconsistencies, explain how illogical it is and that I used the wrong words (e.g. do I really mean constant as in 100% or could that be an exaggeration? or 'unpleasant' what does unpleasant mean? give us examples / prove it). By that time I'm so triggered because that's how they acted in my childhood and all through my teen years and later... that I can't do anything for myself except maybe cry or dissociate.

Wow BB, this is my family (and every person with NPD I have ever met) to a "T".  I so know that feeling of getting danced around by their circular logic and them picking apart everything I would say - utter frustration, anger and hopelessness of ever getting through.  There is no opportunity for any real discussion/communication, they just want to win and they have a big bag of strategies they use to try and do so.  Once I figured out I was never going to get through I stopped trying and that gave me a sense freedom by letting go of the wish/hope I could connect with them, but also sadness that I would never be able to. 

Attempting to explain why LC/NC was just another opportunity for more gas lighting/abuse, and no matter what/how I said things, she was going to feel attacked. It took me many years to realize this, and it never went well for me until I accepted this, and was prepared for it before I said anything.

Same for me Jazzy which is why I stopped trying - not worth it (for me) as nothing was ever going to change and it didn't end up helping me to feel better because of the N rage/FOGing it ignited.   

Anyway, Blues you have to do what feels right for you of course, we're just sharing what worked (or didn't) for us 

[Rainydaze]

Post submission edit: I appear to have written a short essay, apologies. 

One thing that may help with the shame is to write down all the reasons you went NC and read that when it rises up in you. We are good people doing something that does not sit well with our values so we need to reinforce why we went/stay NC.

If you do think you'd feel better letting him know why you have chosen to go NC, I like the examples you came up with already - honest, short and to the point.

My suggestion FWIW: "Three years ago I made the decision to end my relationship with you because far too often in my life your behaviour toward me was harmful, abusive even. I reached a point where it became too painful and I saw no possibility of you taking responsibility or changing. It was not an easy decision to end the relationship but I wish you well and ask that you respect my decision not to have any further contact."

Thanks Kizzie, I'll try making a list of why I feel NC is essential for me right now.  I do have a list of pivotal moments that I think contributed to this situation and I could do with reflecting on it more. I think I probably look for too much validation from other people about being no contact and feel all sorts of wrong when I imagine that they're thinking badly of me. I guess essentially it's people pleasing and what I was ultimately trained to do in order for the abuse to remain behind closed doors. I lose my own truth and reality in the process though and try to fit other people's narratives, when they're not the ones that have had to live through and cope with any of it. 

I've written some further lines based along your suggestion and it's come far more easily to me today. I wrote this without realising until I read it back how important it feels to get it across: "...I am not going to provide examples [of previous bad behaviour] because these are numerous and past behaviour I can forgive to a point. It is in fact the likelihood of continued mistreatment and the harmful, ill effects of this that I refuse to subject myself to." If I could remain in contact without being hurt constantly then I would, but he seems to get off on the disorder and power plays. That's what I'm making a stand against and want to make abundantly clear.

I have been through these thoughts again and again blues_cruise and know how excruciating and even maddening they are. My experience has been that whatever I have said / written to FOO over the years has not got through to FOO. I say "over the years" because I have been NC with one FOO mbr and gone back to contact and NC with another and gone back to contact and VLC with almost everybody and gone back to gradually more contact since it had seemed they'd understood and changed until two utterly devastating incidents where it was obvious that they hadn't changed in the least and where it became obvious that I'm still FOO Scapegoat no. 1 aka the family garbage dump. Since then I've been vvvvvvlc with everybody, adding more and more 'v' to that as I realise (1) the depth of dysfunction in FOO and (2) how much it has been damaging me on a daily basis.

I've written a lot of Recovery Letters on here (non-sender letters to FOO mbrs) to get my feelings out. I also read over at OutOfTheFog and sometimes asked questions. I remember one mbr there, who'd gone through similar to me in a way - out of contact, back in, out again several times - saying that FOO can't understand us because it's as if we speak a completely different language to them. Our experiences as we try and make sense of what we went through and the steps we take to heal - it's completely foreign to those who haven't done this type of introspection or taken these steps so it's impossible to say or write anything that they'll understand. I've explained things before and FOO particularly enF claims to be clueless and oh so hurt.  Even me simply stating my boundaries used to be too much for FOO - they 'forgot' or 'got confused'. Needless to say my parents are now older than they were when they 'got confused' and enF though not yet suffering from dementia is getting more forgetful, but they no longer 'forget' that I don't accept phone calls from any FOO mbrs. They still 'don't understand' though and play mind games with me by forgetting other very important information (I'm Exceedingly VLC not NC).

Idk if all families react in detail the way my FOO does but faced with a statement like "There were constant occasions where you were very unpleasant to me and showed no signs of remorse or desire to change...I got fed up with it." certain mbrs of my FOO including both parents attack the statement: they parse the sentence, look for inconsistencies, explain how illogical it is and that I used the wrong words (e.g. do I really mean constant as in 100% or could that be an exaggeration? or 'unpleasant' what does unpleasant mean? give us examples / prove it). By that time I'm so triggered because that's how they acted in my childhood and all through my teen years and later... that I can't do anything for myself except maybe cry or dissociate (in person). If it's by letter, I can handle it better, but it still doesn't change anything on the outside.

This has got rather long but I hope it helps you a bit blues_cruise. It's not on you, it's on them. 

Yes, the thoughts are so maddening! Life is generally very peaceful until something triggers me to think of him, then I quickly descend into feelings of chaos and shame. I think the fact that your FOO couldn't move on from seeing you as the scapegoat is very telling of the dysfunction and how difficult it is to be expected to step back into that role once you begin to learn who your real self is. There's very much a set way of thinking and doing and if you dare step out of line you leave yourself open to abuse. It's true, they do speak a different language and have a different perspective. I think from NF's point of view I never used to stand up for myself and the rest of the FOO continues to show allegiance and subservience to him, so to him I'm blatantly the problem because I'm the only constant that changed. If I had remained in contact then perhaps I could have worked on boundaries and relentlessly attempted to have these respected after being trampled over and over again, but I don't think my self-esteem was up to it. When I started that route before no contact he seemed to take great pleasure in putting me in my place and ignoring reasonable requests designed to protect my sanity (i.e. I requested that we stay in contact via email or text messages as opposed to phone calls...such a simple thing but he flat out refused to do it). It seemed very much like a game to him and I felt he was mocking and undermining me every step of the way. I was fast approaching 30 and really felt like my time would be better spent working on the assertiveness that I had never been taught and had been holding me back in my work life, rather than engaging any further in the dysfunction.

My NF can react in detail the way that your FOO does and gets stuck on the particulars of a discussion rather than seeing the bigger picture, interjecting it with mockery and acting like he's above whatever you're trying to get across to him. When I was in contact with NF I wouldn't even attempt it as I knew it would result in him attempting to humiliate me. I'm pretty much 99% sure he won't take on board anything I put forward in a letter or email to him (most likely email) and will choose the usual route of smearing me and mocking everything I've said, but what I say will come from a place of honesty and years of self-reflection so I feel the outcome on his end doesn't matter too much. So long as it doesn't prompt drive-by visits and harassment, that's the only real worry.

Thanks Blueberry, yes it has helped very much.

I've asked myself this many times trying to deal with my M. So, I'll just share some of what I learned in my situation, and hopefully something will be helpful to you. Sorry if this isn't the best way to post. I have a hard time with giving too much advice/telling people what to do. I try not to be bossy, but sometimes it feels like the only way I know how to talk. Anyway...

I think the most important thing I learned is to re-frame things in my mind, and think about them in terms of an adult/adult relationship, instead of a parent/child relationship. I am extremely lenient with my M, as she is my M, but I still make it a point to think how I would act/feel if someone I wasn't related to was acting as she did. If nothing else, this helps me to keep things from getting too far out of hand.

Another thing is that I don't owe M an explanation for LC/NC. A relationship (and contact) requires both parties to be involved. She is just as involved as I am, and should be able to figure things out by taking just a minute to reflect on the situation and the history. The fact that she really can't figure it out shows just how bad her NPD is/how disconnected from the real world she really is. That's unfortunate, and sad, but ultimately not my responsibility.

Attempting to explain why LC/NC was just another opportunity for more gas lighting/abuse, and no matter what/how I said things, she was going to feel attacked. It took me many years to realize this, and it never went well for me until I accepted this, and was prepared for it before I said anything.

IME, it is far easier to write it down in a letter or email rather than talk about it. Verbally arguing/talking back/discussing with M is impossible for me. It also isn't a conversation (unless you want it to be, of course), and a notice in writing gives far less opportunity for rebuttal/interjection.

There is also the old trick of "using I statements". "I felt hurt" is less hostile than "you hurt me". I realize this really is downplaying what was done, and I only mention it because it may help in a situation like this to make the LC/NC explanation a little easier. Otherwise, I wouldn't recommend such a thing, especially when trying to resolve a problem.

That's about all I have to offer. This is a really difficult situation, but I hope you find some peace with however you proceed. Whatever happens, you will get past this and continue on with your life, so I hope it does not become too overwhelming between now and then. Wishing you strength, peaceful thoughts, and hugs if you'd like.  All the best!

You don't come across as bossy at all and what you've shared is really helpful! Reframing it as an adult/adult relationship is definitely something I could and should put more focus on. I find myself slipping into the role of caregiver/adult because his behaviour is so childish. I also find myself being lenient on him for this as I put it down to his developmental age being stunted but then I remember that he knows perfectly well how to act like a mature, sensitive adult when interacting with people he needs to keep on side. I always forget that he's perfectly capable of this and knows how to behave appropriately in social settings, he just chooses manipulation and guilt tripping with me instead.

The last thing I want is a conversation with him as he will just rage and gaslight me, which I'm not emotionally prepared for. I'm naturally better at expressing my thoughts in writing in most scenarios anyway, so it's my default preference with anyone the majority of the time. Using the "I" statements is a really helpful suggestion and something I'll definitely take on board. I've recently been listening to a brilliant podcast about boundaries ("Beyond Bitchy" hosted by Vicki Tidwell Palmer - it's really helpful) and this is something that's come up on there a few times. It takes aggression out of the exchange but still allows you to express that the other person has mistreated you. It does feel a little bit like I'm downplaying things but then he is a very volatile person prone to fits of rage without any clue about how to healthily express emotion. It's why I won't even contemplate sending anything until a while after he attempts to contact me again, and even then I'm going to ensure that it's done once lockdown has greatly eased so that he has more distractions and is less like a caged lion. Chances are he'll just end up ranting to my brothers on the phone who in turn will just say "oh right" at the correct places, but regardless it makes sense for this to be sent at a time when emotions are less high across the board. It might not even be until next year, but I really want to feel prepared for it.

Thanks Jazzy. It's one of those things I think I have to journey through in order to gain some peace and clarity and it does really help to discuss it all and think it through first.

Anyway, Blues you have to do what feels right for you of course, we're just sharing what worked (or didn't) for us 

And it's really helpful and reassuring to know that others relate and can share their experiences, thank you all. 

[Kizzie]

      

[dreamriver]

I'm wracking my brains today in a similar way as you, blues_cruise. I'm very, very, very newly LC with all FOO, and NC with a uNPDsis at the moment.

It's still in that early phase where they haven't "noticed" yet (which is just more proof of the "narc cloud" hovering over all of them, I feel), it's only been a few months, but today I got all stuck in my head about what I'd tell a LC sibling when they finally decide to confront me on it, if ever. What I'd say, what I'd confront them about myself, how I could possibly pass the guilt and shame I feel in isolation back on to them so I don't feel like it's on my shoulders so much, because it's so unfair; but most of all, the itching feeling like I owed an explanation.

I got to the point of writing out an entire message, spinning my wheels, and then I deleted it, thinking I'd feel good typing it out but I just felt awful. They haven't been able to hear my feelings before, how would that change if I just reworded things a little differently? It's no use.

Where I always get to when I'm caught in these spirals also is that I know FOO well enough to know they don't spiral over these things in the same way - except my enabler sis maybe, but she has the toxic support of my other FOO members to keep her feeling validated that she's in the right if she has doubts (which, of course, is why she's enabling and fawning, to feel safe in the dynamic, like she always has). Meanwhile, I dont have that.

Then it makes me realize that there isn't a capacity for empathy on their side of things like there is on mine. If they truly cared, they'd be spinning their wheels in the same way figuring out how to get through that they care for me genuinely. Only, they don't, obviously! They would have done that by now if I was a priority.

PD people (and their flying monkeys) are like flame, if you toss them any emotion at all it just feeds them like dry tinder. I think I'm learning this. I was just watching a show and there was an awesome line: "What do they say about arguing with i***ts? They pull you down to their level, and then they beat you with experience." (Sorry to quote an insulting term! I don't think PDs are i***ts, but I think the concept applies to dealing with PD folk too, sorry if it comes of too harsh.)

But you're on a different level. Medium chill is a concept I really like: the only way to deal with fire is to be like ice. Preserve yourself. Even showing that you care gives the opportunity for the fire, and thus more abuse, to spread. Every emotion is a tool against you. So why outwardly show that you do care by writing them? Why expose yourself?

The only reason: the pangs of guilt, shame, and sadness over being scapegoated are painful, and you want an outlet for them. But the thing is that they're a sign of your humanity; that you do care about them deeply. But that's an emotion you have the beautiful privilege and power to keep completely to yourself and know what it means. When they have access to it though, it gets warped and turned into something ugly (and turned against you, for that matter), so preserve it for yourself and don't give them anything.

We don't owe anyone (especially a fellow peer adult - great point, Jazzy!) an explanation about what we must do to feel deserving of self-confidence and peace of mind.

[Rainydaze]

t's still in that early phase where they haven't "noticed" yet (which is just more proof of the "narc cloud" hovering over all of them, I feel), it's only been a few months, but today I got all stuck in my head about what I'd tell a LC sibling when they finally decide to confront me on it, if ever. What I'd say, what I'd confront them about myself, how I could possibly pass the guilt and shame I feel in isolation back on to them so I don't feel like it's on my shoulders so much, because it's so unfair; but most of all, the itching feeling like I owed an explanation.

I always find it baffling how some people with personality disorders just straight up don't recognise that a family member isn't full contact with them any longer. In my experience, if you're still serving them from time to time and stoking their ego enough then they don't really acknowledge a problem. I was quite low contact with my father for years with him only contacting me when he wanted a favour doing, which was all fine until he took offence at the one occasion when I wasn't able to meet his demands. The idea that we ever had a loving, genuine relationship and that he misses me is actually laughable. I think if family isn't even noticing low contact then the shame for the situation truly isn't yours to bear, as they're clearly not seeing you or taking any accountability for their role in the circumstances. 

Where I always get to when I'm caught in these spirals also is that I know FOO well enough to know they don't spiral over these things in the same way - except my enabler sis maybe, but she has the toxic support of my other FOO members to keep her feeling validated that she's in the right if she has doubts (which, of course, is why she's enabling and fawning, to feel safe in the dynamic, like she always has). Meanwhile, I dont have that.

Then it makes me realize that there isn't a capacity for empathy on their side of things like there is on mine. If they truly cared, they'd be spinning their wheels in the same way figuring out how to get through that they care for me genuinely. Only, they don't, obviously! They would have done that by now if I was a priority.

Yeah definitely, the lack of empathy on NF's part is something I always forget when I'm triggered into shame. I often project my feelings of sadness and guilt on to him, all the while forgetting that he's coccooned in his usual dynamic and has expressed no wish to address reality. He's validated by enabling people around him who choose to maintain the status quo so there's no incentive for him to attempt change.

PD people (and their flying monkeys) are like flame, if you toss them any emotion at all it just feeds them like dry tinder. I think I'm learning this. I was just watching a show and there was an awesome line: "What do they say about arguing with i***ts? They pull you down to their level, and then they beat you with experience." (Sorry to quote an insulting term! I don't think PDs are i***ts, but I think the concept applies to dealing with PD folk too, sorry if it comes of too harsh.)

But you're on a different level. Medium chill is a concept I really like: the only way to deal with fire is to be like ice. Preserve yourself. Even showing that you care gives the opportunity for the fire, and thus more abuse, to spread. Every emotion is a tool against you. So why outwardly show that you do care by writing them? Why expose yourself?

The only reason: the pangs of guilt, shame, and sadness over being scapegoated are painful, and you want an outlet for them. But the thing is that they're a sign of your humanity; that you do care about them deeply. But that's an emotion you have the beautiful privilege and power to keep completely to yourself and know what it means. When they have access to it though, it gets warped and turned into something ugly (and turned against you, for that matter), so preserve it for yourself and don't give them anything.

We don't owe anyone (especially a fellow peer adult - great point, Jazzy!) an explanation about what we must do to feel deserving of self-confidence and peace of mind.

Oh absolutely, I think NF's personality disorder thrives on the chaos and he gets a high from feeling a sense of power. I first really recognised this after the first communication boundary I tried putting in place, after which he came to my home out of the blue and showed no emotion whatsoever. He seemed to have a really odd energy about him though, as if he was enjoying (and even excited by) my obvious discomfort over him being there. He was whispering about me to his now wife in full earshot with no respect for my feelings and went as far as to aggressively poke me in the ribs, which I'm just shocked by now when I recall it. It's something he always used to do when I was a little girl if I ever dared show any defiance and is actually very painful, more so than you might think. When living in relative peace it's so easy to forget what the reality of his demeanour actually is.

Medium chill is really valuable when contacting any person who has demonstrated time and time again that they have no respect for your feelings. I've been reading up on Myers Briggs personality types recently and although there's some controversy over how accurate it is, it is an interesting insight into how some personalities are dominated by feeling whereas others might be dominated by thinking, plus how that changes our perceptions of and reactions to events. I'm very much a feeler and I think because I'm naturally sensitive it is very easy for someone such as my father to exploit this for his own amusement.

The thing with NPD is that it's often referred to an illness and we possibly assign some leniency to the affected person as a result (against my better judgement, I've read many articles which show a lot of sympathy for them), because most people with illnesses more than anything want to get better. Narcissists rarely do this. My father has disordered, unhealthy patterns of thinking which no doubt stems from his own abusive childhood, however he can also think logically when it comes to choosing which social mask to wear on any given day and is very skilled at hiding any evidence of his abuse towards others. The latter demonstrates to me that he knows his behaviour is unacceptable but chooses to go ahead and treat people badly anyway because he knows he can so easily manipulate people's emotions and get away with it. Is failure to take accountability really a result of narcissistic illness, or is it just the sign of a very unpleasant person who doesn't care? We can't make this call and personally I find that my viewpoint varies depending on how I'm feeling in myself. Currently I'm feeling calm and well-rested and can clearly see that he should be taking accountability rather than being let off the hook, so it's probably a good time to get these more reality-driven thoughts down on paper, if only for my own benefit to reflect back on when I start beating myself up again.

[dreamriver]

Blues cruise - yes, I don't get that inability to notice at all either. Well, I do think a couple of them notice. But in at least one of their minds, any lack of contact is completely my fault, that's how they justify it. In another (enabler) they're ready to defend the rest of FOO against me. And all the rest are in outer space as far as I'm concerned.

I'm so sorry you have that realization that you never had a genuine, loving relationship with your father. It hurts. I'm still in shock having that realization about my FOO. Now that I really look closely at things too much adds up. I almost can't even believe I didn't notice and how much I internalized. And I'm only breaking free of it now. It's crazy that the thoughts that keep me healthy now are "my FOO is toxic, my FOO is dysfunctional, my FOO is bad" I'll get used to it someday maybe, but it's weird cuz I still love them, and I still can't believe it's true.

One thing I'm starting to nurture is that every emotion does have a survival purpose - and though I hate to cut off sympathy and nurture apathy instead towards the FOO I love, I start to wonder if that's why the emotions (or lack of emotions) of apathy even exist in the first place. For protection. It's a paradoxical world; you can be incredibly nice and supportive of someone and that may enable poison and abuse. And yet being "cruel to be kind" (to yourself) or being cold, distant, and apathetic can be an act of love and kindness towards yourself and others, but also towards those who abuse you... because really, no one does the abuser any favors if you allow them to keep abusing. If they have no more people to abuse, maybe that will get them to hit rock bottom all that much more quickly, and maybe change finally. (Probably not but it's the only option.) And maybe that's the only act of love they can leave us with at this point.

I think you make a good point about some NPDs getting "high" off a sense of power or control! I see that in FOO and others. It's a game, an adrenaline rush that makes them feel worthy and good, and it's the only thing they've got that makes them feel that way. Actually quite sad. They'll never experience real love. But looking at it that way (NPDs as "power addicts") helps me see things in a healthier context and feel empowered to cut off the supply....

Your father's behavior towards you that you describe really strikes a nerve with me, that's for sure!!!! Poking and playing with your emotions. That's awful. I'm so sorry blues cruise that you've dealt with that, and it is most definitely inappropriate....you deserve to keep the boundaries you created up and fortified. No matter what he may say or feel.

A couple weeks ago my eM almost busted my boundaries that I set a year ago, and which initially caused her to distance herself from me because she wasn't getting what she wanted at the snap of her fingers. (I am seriously wondering if she is actually covert NPD). I couldn't believe she was planning on breaking them (she changed plans last minute and then didn't) but I was super amused all the while because I've made boundaries in such a way that if she tried to break them, she'd have a fairly unpleasant time. I think there was some part of her that knew she was trying to break them and she bubbled up with a ton of stories and excuses to make me feel guilty or empathetic towards her. I didn't respond.

"Is failure to take accountability really a result of narcissistic illness, or is it just the sign of a very unpleasant person who doesn't care?" I think it's a little bit of both. But I think it's learned survival instinct more than conscious thought.

Again, thinking of NPDs as power addicts is so helpful and makes sense. Addicts find themselves doing things almost unconsciously, things they can hardly even control, in order to get their supply. It's all impulse. They follow those impulses to feel good. I think it's very much an illness then in that case. But just like the typical substance addict, there IS a person inside thay wants to be sober. I'm sure there is an aspect of every NPD that sees the behavior, knows it's bad in some way, but maybe can't help themselves (but that doesn't mean we need to help them! )

It sounds like you're feeling better Blues Cruise I'm glad. I'm waiting for the time when I start beating myself up again, too, and writing down my realizations, mantras, and healthy thought patterns in the meantime. So helpful. Keep on fighting the good fight! 

[Rainydaze]

Thank you for your lovely reply, dreamriver.  I'm sorry for only just coming back and acknowledging this! You've brought up some really profound points which have made me think.

Yeah, the realisation of the lack of a genuine relationship with my father does really hurt. I'd always known his behaviour wasn't right but I'd always assumed (as you do as a child/adult child) that he wanted what was best for me deep down. I've been looking into and reading more about narcissists, or more specifically sociopaths, recently and it's so shocking how different their perceptions are. What I've really taken away from reading some personal accounts written by self-proclaimed sociopaths is that they are genuinely puzzled by the concept of empathy and just don't see the value in it. Many can pretend and demonstrate cognitive empathy, but emotionally they don't feel it. Oddly it's been a comfort to realise that shaming myself for distancing myself from my abusive dad is counter-productive, since in all likelihood he is just playing with my emotions. I've been framing his behaviour with emotion which just allows myself to be manipulated by him. The more respect and self-care I show myself the more I see how important it probably is not to engage with him whatsoever, because he will do anything in his power for me not to become an assertive, confident person. For a parent to actively want to stop their adult child from being comfortable in their own skin and successful is just toxic. I only realise just how awful and unfair he has acted towards me all my life when I step back and pretend to be someone else observing the situation. In my own shoes my default reaction is to try to explain it away, minimise it and look for any way whatsoever that it could be me that's the real problem (which I guess is like abandoning myself...or being stuck in the bargaining stage of grief?) It's too much, regardless. 

It's a paradoxical world; you can be incredibly nice and supportive of someone and that may enable poison and abuse. And yet being "cruel to be kind" (to yourself) or being cold, distant, and apathetic can be an act of love and kindness towards yourself and others, but also towards those who abuse you... because really, no one does the abuser any favors if you allow them to keep abusing. If they have no more people to abuse, maybe that will get them to hit rock bottom all that much more quickly, and maybe change finally. (Probably not but it's the only option.) And maybe that's the only act of love they can leave us with at this point.

Yes, exactly! You put that into words beautifully. When I moved out of his house at the age of 21 and he continued to be vile to me, I actively made the decision to fawn in order to cope with it and to create the delusion that everything was ok. This meant I turned a blind eye on the occasions where he gave me an intentionally shoddy gift with a passive-aggressive message in my birthday card, or when he turned up at my workplace in a rage after arguing with his partner and decided to humiliate me in front of my co-workers, or when he left horrible messages on my answering machine when I was unavailable to pick up the phone...and on and on it went. It was 100% the wrong way to deal with it and I just encouraged him further, but I so wanted to believe that I was loved deep down and thought throught my 20s that if I was 'good' then the abuse would eventually stop and that he would see the light. This is exactly how my enabling mother had coped with being abused by him, so I was essentially copying her unhealthy coping mechanism. It was only in my late 20s that I realised that healthy people don'trespect you (and often disrespect you less) for being a doormat and that this mentality just couldn't work anymore in adulthood.

A couple weeks ago my eM almost busted my boundaries that I set a year ago, and which initially caused her to distance herself from me because she wasn't getting what she wanted at the snap of her fingers. (I am seriously wondering if she is actually covert NPD). I couldn't believe she was planning on breaking them (she changed plans last minute and then didn't) but I was super amused all the while because I've made boundaries in such a way that if she tried to break them, she'd have a fairly unpleasant time. I think there was some part of her that knew she was trying to break them and she bubbled up with a ton of stories and excuses to make me feel guilty or empathetic towards her. I didn't respond.

Not responding is the best way in that scenario, good for you for protecting your boundaries.  I think getting a negative reaction is usually the end goal when it comes to someone violating your boundaries and when you don't feed them that emotion they have little choice but to back off. I love that your reaction was to be amused rather than super frustrated, sounds like she was clearly trying to push your buttons and getting nowhere. 

I think the feeling of control is all my father really has to be honest, which he has entirely brought upon himself. You can't repeatedly be cruel to people and expect them to tolerate it indefinitely. I've been taking responsibility for his mental health issues and deep-rooted shame for far too long and if he wants to feel better then he needs to own it all. I've decided to ask my husband to check any future birthday cards or other communication from now on and if there is ever a "sorry" or an expressed wish to change and do better then my door is (extremely tentatively) open a crack, but I'm not going to trigger and punish myself by reading anything from him from now on. I've been making the mistake of looking at myself as the cause of his issues, when in reality his mental health problems go back decades before I was even born. It's far too big for me to deal with on top of my own issues. He's got plenty of family still around him who can help him out if he ever needs anything practically or mentally, so I'm going to work on thought stopping and trying not to shame myself for things that aren't my fault or responsibility.

It sounds like you're feeling better Blues Cruise I'm glad. I'm waiting for the time when I start beating myself up again, too, and writing down my realizations, mantras, and healthy thought patterns in the meantime. So helpful. Keep on fighting the good fight! 

That's brilliant, I do this too.  My husband bought me a lovely notebook last year and I've been filling it with positive quotations and affirmations. Thank you, all the best to you too.