The prospect of long-term NC

[Rainydaze]

When I first began no contact it was very much with the mindset of using this as a boundary in order to focus on working through my trauma and to not allow myself to be bullied by my father anymore. VLC had completely failed and my mental health was terrible while I was still in contact with uNF. I always said that if I ever got to a point of feeling like I would be better able to cope with communicating with him then I might reconsider extremely low contact with many, many boundaries in place (once I had figured out what these actually were and how they were supposed to work). I had never had a single boundary in place with him and when I tried a couple it was clear that he would never accept them.

3 and a half years later I'm now seeing that I'm most likely going to be keeping no contact permanent for the foreseeable future. Whenever I imagine being in contact with him again I get this massive pit of dread in my stomach and it feels so, so wrong, like I would be throwing myself back to the wolves. I'm just beginning to really understand how much trauma gets stored in the body and learning coping mechanisms for the resulting anxiety. Like many of us might have realised on our journey with C-PTSD so far, I think it's going to be something that I'm going to need to navigate very gently for the rest of my life. I hadn't realised just how much abuse I had experienced and how much damage it had done to my nervous system. I'm only really starting to genuinely slip out of my long-term dissociation and depression and I'm enjoying the experience of individuating and learning who I am and what I want out of life. My own father would try to sabotage this if I allowed him even an inch, because that's what he does.

So I'm now thinking that I may well never speak to him again, or at least not for a very long time, and it's a weird thing; I don't know how I feel about it. Sad I suppose, but also relieved. It's the last thing I would ever have wanted (because who doesn't want a dad?) whilst also being one of the few things I am certain is the healthiest course for me, so there's this weird juxtaposition between the two feelings I find myself having towards the permanency of no contact. I think I'm grieving a bit, I don't know. There are also fleeting thoughts about what I might do if there's ever a carehome or deathbed scenario but I'm just going to have to cross that bridge when I come to it.

I'm just putting this out there to get it off my chest really! As time goes by and I find myself well into my 30s it's something that seems to be coming up for me a lot.

[dreamriver]

Hi blues cruise! Thank you for putting your experience and feelings out there into this forum. I'm so sorry you're in this position. The pain of it... awful. You have every right to uphold NC if you feel that's what brings you health, clarity, happiness, and healing... and like so many others here I'm sure we can  relate to this unique and harrowing emotional experience of individuating ourselves despite what feels like a high cost to do so (and all the abandonment anxiety that comes with it). I sure do.

I try to remember the mantra "the pain would be much worse without the boundaries." But the no-win situation, and some pain no matter what you do, is the hardest struggle of all. If only we could just live pain free. What gives me hope are the experiences of other members (here and at Out of the FOG) who say it gets easier when you figure out precisely what's best for you...whether it's LC, VLC, NC, etc....and time helps the most afterward.

I'm very sorry that VLC just didn't work at all. I relate to you so much in wanting to keep that door open, to give FOO a last chance and try to meet them on some terms to still have them in your life in some way, shape, or form. But then realizing that even that low contact price might be just too high. I'm also in my 30's and it's an all-consuming emotional state to be in. I ache for closure.

I'm in similar shoes as you...NC with one undiagnosed very disordered FOO member, but working out what's best with a couple others who enable them and their abuse. VLC at this time. Communication closed off due to a very stressful time of year and planning to revisit communication when I have it in me. Emails from them sitting unread for now. Numbers and social media blocked. Some messages coming in with an attempt to make things seem normal which makes it worse. But boy, am I twisted up inside about opening this back up again, dreading it; pitting my own heartbreak, pain, and hurt against giving them one last chance, and still in that bewildering state before deciding fullNC as a possibility and before running through all the other possibilities that mt still create hurt yet. Being caught between two feelings for sure, you put it very, very well.

I can't imagine how you feel with your uNF. But if he makes you feel bad and actively sabotages you I stand with you and support closing the door forever if that's what you need to do. You're not alone.

And yes, who doesn't want a dad? A mom? A loving sibling?!? It's so hard. You didn't get that growing up and it's not your fault. It's unfair you have to make this choice but again, not your fault. The emotional scars are the worst part, for real. The fact that we have empathy and they don't sets up for a lot of depression, anxiety, and self doubt. I've been on my own journey recalling and working through CA and neglect, even SA and PA I've come to terms with, but it's the EA that has hit me the hardest because it's effects are ongoing up until the present, and it's the last hold an abusive FOO can have on you even when they are long out of your life...

Sending some good healing vibes and strength your way, and nothing but support. You got this. You're validated here and from the way I see and read your message, you have every right to do that you feel is best to do for yourself, from what you describe. Love shouldn't feel bad! Especially with your dad. You've got people here who will validate you if NC is the way to go and all that FOO leave us with as a choice. I hope you feel better soon and here's a hug if you need it and if it's OK. 

[Rainydaze]

Hi dreamriver, thank you so much for your supportive message. I'm so sorry that you're also having a rough time with it right now. I think current events in the world are making something already hard just that much more difficult, since connecting with family is more at the forefront of people's minds, plus it's not so easy to get out and about and distract yourself from it all. Deciding upon what level of contact will work for you is such a difficult thing because it's never black and white and it's impossible for all involved not to experience some level of resentment and hurt.

You're right, it's entirely a no-win situation. I can only have a 'relationship' with F if I go back to becoming the scapegoat, which I'm obviously not prepared to do. The alternative path I'm on feels horrible, but it's still the lesser evil. I know he would resolve to find opportunities to belittle, humiliate and punish me and try to get the old dynamics going if I ever did attempt contact again.  To explain that to another person is impossible too, because it's unbelievable that someone's own parent would want to do that to them. It just feels so unfair. I feel like I need to healthily grieve the loss but while he's in this realm physically I don't know where to start. He only lives 15 miles away! I don't feel like I can let my hypervigilance go as a result.

I also have enablers in the family and that hurts too. Both brothers have distanced themselves from me and though they don't verbally support F, their actions shout that actually, they kinda do. At one point when I was newly into NC they did seem to understand, but after about 6 months it changed. It's like it was seen as a 'win' over F for them to begin with because someone was taking a stand and by default that gave them some validation for what they themselves had been through, but after a few months went by I guess that wore off and they withdrew. It's just the toxic family system in play though, I know that. They bond by mutually complaining about how horrid F is and I know I completely threw the safety net off that by going in another direction. it's pretty much a clique that I no longer have access to.   

Thank you, it feels good to have someone tell me that it's not my fault. I'm far better nowadays at being kind to myself consciously, but subconsciously I blame myself for not being strong or resilient enough to endure the contact anymore. As you say, the effects are ongoing and it's just so odd how trauma can hit you years and years after the worst of what happened is over. I was able to deal with him with far less anxiety and fear when I was living with him and actively going through it all. 

I hope you can find some clarity and a way forward in your own contact situation, it is such a stressful thing to go through from day to day. A hug back to you if you're open to it.

[dreamriver]

The alternative path I'm on feels horrible, but it's still the lesser evil.

I feel you so much here. It's sticky all around to say the least. It's the lesser evil for you especially, so you don't get hurt nearly as much. I try to think it's the lesser evil for my FOO too. The less enabling there is the less the disorder is fed. Same in your situation. If we all cut off PD's from supply in a perfect world they would cease to exist or at least be so prevalent, and spreading their behavioral patterns that way wouldn't happen and maybe we'd save others more pain...if it weren't for other enabling FOO. Though when one of them becomes the new SG they have their own choice to make to stop the pattern, perhaps, and experience precisely what you felt and understand. That can only be possible (even if only minutely possible) if you go NC!

You're making the right decision: for yourself, your uNF, and even for your FOO and others in that light.

I also have enablers in the family and that hurts too. Both brothers have distanced themselves from me and though they don't verbally support F, their actions shout that actually, they kinda do.

Actions can speak so loudly and our gut can confirm so much! If you're feeling this you're probably right. I feel enabler siblings still want to reserve their right to complaining all about the PD in the family to each other, just behind each other's backs. And they feed on the gossip and negativity. It really is like a fuel that helps them replace emptiness elsewhere in their lives. It's an easy fix but only a temporary high. You're growing, and they are not!

It's those of us in the family (the scapegoats) who actually try to "heal" the pattern when we contest it that bring the rest of the family together in a weird way...they do it because it makes us an easy target, we're the wolf in the village now, no longer a villager, they no longer have that desire for the fix in common with you. The validating is easy, the changing of the ways is not. They're not as brave as you to finally say goodbye to the *real* source of negativity in their lives.

But, maybe once you're out of the picture, they will see it...and if they don't, you're at least free to grow.

It's pretty much a clique that I no longer have access to.

Yes! Absolutely. I remember feeling this when young and in school, not being part of cliques. It's crazy that FOO is now one of them as an adult for us. But it shows how much I've grown - and you, too, blues cruise!

It's like others flocking around the popular kid. And like in school, it's painful not to be a part - but then realizing you're growing and learning and outpacing that mindset, while they hold onto that feeling of "popularity." But like they say, most kids who were popular in school hold onto that feeling and don't advance nearly as much in life as those of us who learned to be stronger without that crutch, and who even experienced ostracism. It's the same with FOO. I feel a mixture of painful exclusion and pity for them sometimes too, though. They're stuck. Holding onto the last shreds of pettiness in order to avoid real growth. Those shreds do nothing for us anymore, we yearn for something better. It's out there for you, I'm sure.

I know he would resolve to find opportunities to belittle, humiliate and punish me and try to get the old dynamics going if I ever did attempt contact again.  To explain that to another person is impossible too, because it's unbelievable that someone's own parent would want to do that to them.

You're not alone here! And that's why I'm at this forum myself. People just don't understand. Even my DH, even close friends, even those I know who are still caught in the FOG themselves. But you've got tons of people here who do and who are going through the same thing.

Thank you, it feels good to have someone tell me that it's not my fault. I'm far better nowadays at being kind to myself consciously, but subconsciously I blame myself for not being strong or resilient enough to endure the contact anymore. As you say, the effects are ongoing and it's just so odd how trauma can hit you years and years after the worst of what happened is over. I was able to deal with him with far less anxiety and fear when I was living with him and actively going through it all.

I'm so sorry to hear this. I hope you're able to find stronger barriers within yourself to feel more protected from the vestiges of his influence at a distance, and your siblings too. I'm working on this myself. I have good weeks and then very bad weeks.

It is truly the worst part, how abusive FOO can find a way into our subconscious even after they are not physically present. I was really enmeshed myself - I've had no problem cutting out harmful friends and acquaintances, and even facing breakups, over far less but FOO has a way of getting deep under our skin. Because they raised us and we depended on them emotionally, and they conditioned us to meet their emotional needs in a painful way, of course! Even if the dependence was fraught with harm and injury, or when something good was ultimately spoiled by betrayal. And the showing of true colors....

When dealing with the worst emotions a good reminder I have for myself is that the reason I feel this way is that I have empathy, they don't. I feel for them. I grieve the loss where they cannot. They don't feel that deeply or the lies they tell themselves about my being awful (to validate their actions to themselves) protect them from feeling anything wrong, and then I realize I'm GLAD to not be them or caught up in their darkness. It's a high price to pay for empathy I guess, and to be a good person.

In essence, you're a good person blues cruise  you still care about your FOO despite how badly they've treated you and that is the hallmark of a person who is big hearted, loving, and worthy to be in the world and to be happy. And a person who deserves love..self-love especially!

I'm still learning to love myself more in the context of FOO dynamics and it's never smooth but that's the greatest challenge we're tasked with  You've made the first step loving yourself going NC, and I can only say it's the first. (By the way, I made the choice to go full NC with my covert uNM TODAY, so we're walking the same path). There will be even more steps and opportunities now that you've made the most difficult first step of all, to not be permeated by the toxic behavior any longer and to get out of the storm and the FOG.

Here's to more healing and clarity to come... and a hug if you need it!  Anxiety and depression will be part and parcel to the road ahead but we are now birds out of our cages, ready to figure out how to fly without fear...as cheesy as it sounds it's true.

[Kizzie]

Thank you so much for your post Blues, it spoke to my heart and what I and so many of us have had to go through when deciding to go NC including what it feels like once you have...    and   

[Rainydaze]

Dreamriver, you're right, enabling a PD person doesn't do anyone any favours. Normalising abusive behaviour/pretending it's "not that bad" isn't kind for anyone in the long run, it's just sticking your head in the sand and ignoring the bigger picture. NPD people seem to cope with reality by living out delusions so it stands to reason that the rest of the family continues to go along with it by default. To be fair, I myself went along with it all until it became unbearable, but to now be on the outside looking in it is very frustrating to see these dynamics play out. It does take a lot of resolve and determination to break free from the ingrained mentality.

I'm so with you on the mixed feelings of painful exclusion and pity in relation to the FOO and I find these emotions are constantly changing. Some days I feel so depressed that we can't be closer and I blame myself for it, other days I'm reminded that their relationship with uNF is hollow and any love or affection shown towards them is transaction based, just as it was when I was still in contact. It makes me thankful to be out of that cycle and to no longer have to endure the mentally damaging phone calls and visits, which used to just leave me feeling empty and angry. The hardest thing is them choosing my abuser over me, though I find it helps to remind myself too that circumstances have been very different for me compared to my siblings. For a start, I'm the only female and uNF is misogynistic, plus covert incest has been a very disturbing thing to endure which my brothers have no experience of. Also, I'm the youngest and the only one to have ever been forced to live alone with uNF and to bear the full brunt of his rages. It's naturally left me with an entirely different set of experiences. I feel that I at least try to understand their mentality though, whereas I feel that my truth gets swept under the rug and invalidated. It's probably more about them and their emotional limitations than it is about me, but it still hurts.

Yes, the FOO does get deeply under your skin and as you say, we're conditioned to meet its needs. There was never any room for discussion in my FOO, it was always uNF's way or the highway. After my mum died I think I trauma bonded with uNF far more than I would ever have done if she had lived and there was a lot of enmeshment there in my teens. My niece is now the age I was at when all this was going on and my heart breaks to think of such an innocent, young girl like her going through what I did (thankfully she has a stable home life and is well provided for physically and emotionally). Considering that helps me be more compassionate towards myself and to realise that it's ok to no longer be part of a family system that never provided any genuine, long-lasting nurture. No child stands a chance at coming through mentally unscathed in an environment like that.

I know he would resolve to find opportunities to belittle, humiliate and punish me and try to get the old dynamics going if I ever did attempt contact again.  To explain that to another person is impossible too, because it's unbelievable that someone's own parent would want to do that to them.

You're not alone here! And that's why I'm at this forum myself. People just don't understand. Even my DH, even close friends, even those I know who are still caught in the FOG themselves. But you've got tons of people here who do and who are going through the same thing.

Thank you! I really am so grateful for this forum.  My DH is quite understanding but forgets/doesn't understand the gravity of what I'm dealing with. For instance, we only live about 15 miles away from my home town where uNF still is and I refuse to go there because of all the awful triggers/possibility of seeing uNF. He can understand my desire for distance to a certain extent, but doesn't understand my extreme hypervigilance surrounding it and just how messed up it makes me feel to be so close still. It's so good to have a safe place where people do understand things like this.

I'm still learning to love myself more in the context of FOO dynamics and it's never smooth but that's the greatest challenge we're tasked with   You've made the first step loving yourself going NC, and I can only say it's the first. (By the way, I made the choice to go full NC with my covert uNM TODAY, so we're walking the same path). There will be even more steps and opportunities now that you've made the most difficult first step of all, to not be permeated by the toxic behavior any longer and to get out of the storm and the FOG.

Definitely, and as hard as it is I'm unwavering in thinking that no contact is the right thing to do, regardless of the difficult emotions it brings up. I applaud you on also doing what's right for you in making the choice to go full NC. Distancing yourself from toxic behaviour really does allow for greater clarity and means you can unpick and work through trauma/re-parent yourself healthily without being re-traumatised as often in the here and now. It allows you to be true to your own values and to finally focus on your inner child (and children need a lot of attention; their wellbeing should always come first!)

Thank you so much for hearing me dreamriver, it means so much to talk through stuff like this. I love your bird analogy, it's so true. The older I get the more peace and satisfaction I feel from watching how free birds are, so why not work to become one. 

Thank you so much for your post Blues, it spoke to my heart and what I and so many of us have had to go through when deciding to go NC including what it feels like once you have...    and   

Thank you Kizzie, it's a comfort to know that it resonates. I'm finding that no contact seems to evolve over time and finding peace with the new phase of permanency is the next hurdle. It helps to put it into words.