dollyvee's recovery journal

[Papa Coco]

Dolly,

I just downloaded the book in my audio program so I can begin listening to it on my long drives or boring housework days. It looks interesting. I'm excited to get started.

I have been trying to find my balance between narcissism and self-love. I assume that is similar to your words of agency versus selfishness.

When I remember that old religious saying, from when I was religious, "Love thy neighbor as thyself" I am now drawn toward the word "as". My narcissistic family, and my narcissistic church experience taught me to love them more than I love myself. But the ancients wrote this sentence with the word "as", not "instead of" or "more than". When the flight attendant tells me to put my mask on before I put one on my seat-mate, they are reminding me that I can do no good for anyone else if I don't respect myself enough to tend to my needs first. First-responders have to keep themselves healthy and strong, otherwise they can't help us when we need them.

I am not saying we "should" love ourselves as we love others, I'm just saying that I'm finally reaching a point where I am starting to see that I have the right to love myself as much as I love my family and friends and neighbors. As for me, I don't learn so good anymore when people use the word "should" on me, but I'm always grateful to those who share what they've learned so I can choose for myself whether I want to know more. So thank you for sharing this book with us.

My new motto is "Together We All Win" and by sharing where we find good info with each other, we're kind of heading toward the finish line together.

[dollyvee]

Thank you PC -

I think it goes beyond just loving myself though I'm sure that's at the root of everything right? When she says, "both had to honour what was going on inside her without any time pressure, without any judgement, or preconceived idea of outcome." This really hit home and was akin to things that came up during energy work. I think growing up there was never any space to just let things unfold, or to do something at my own pace etc because it always had to be done for someone else. While I rationally understand to slow down, and listen to myself, do it at my own pace, it's like something in my body still does not. I guess healing is about helping to build that consciousness around what is actually going on, but it's like, at times, this stuff just happens automatically under the radar, in the background.

TW ~ SA (?)


Over the xmas break with t, I had a third sort of "odd" dream about my gf with tones of nakedness, sexuality etc. I talked about the "loose boundaries" that existed and how, let's say it was never "absolute," there were things that fell under an inappropriate umbrella. Inappropriate is a c**p term. In the JB book they would have fallen under SA I think. Anyways, when  I was sevenish, I remember telling him that I don't like it when he touched my bum as he was coming up behind me on the stairs. This was met with, well it wasn't that bad. Why are you making a big deal out of it, it's not like I really did anything? T said this was gaslighting. What I heard in my family is that I was making a big deal out of nothing, it's not that bad. I feel like the same things happened with how my sf treated me as well. I felt good after talking about this stuff with t even though I had been worried to bring it up.

I keep having these dreams and am starting to realize that I stood in as a romantic liaison (is this the right term?) with my gf. Why would he need to get married when he had his grancdhildren to be there and do things for him?


end TW

I'm still processing this I think. When I switch to "adult consciousness" the idea of it makes me angryy and I think what the heck were you doing? Let the child have her own life, or just gross and too close.

[Hope67]

Hi Dollyvee,
I really related to what you said when you mentioned that "this stuff just happens automatically under the radar, in the background". 

I read what you wrote about SA, and I am glad that your T pointed out the gaslighting behaviour of your family in response to what happened.  The behaviour from your gf and your sf was not right.  I am really glad you were able to talk to your T about this, although I know you were worried about bringing it up.  My F also used to feel he could touch my bum when he was coming up behind me on the stairs, and for me, I felt continually like I was running away from inappropriate stuff through my childhood, teens and even beyond that as well.  I stand with you in feeling that shouldn't happen, that it's not right. 

I'm glad that when you switch to "adult consciousness" that the idea of it makes you angry.  It makes me angry too. 

Anyway, I had wanted to say something in response to what you'd written, when I first read it earlier in the weekend, but I didn't feel able to find words at that time, but I am thankful to have found words today, and just wanted to say I read what you wrote, and I support you in your reactions to it.

Sending you a hug of support 
Hope 

[dollyvee]

Discussing this book with t and was/am worried that she doesn't "get" it or understand the importance to me, and how much I feel like it makes sense, but I think she was very open to it as well. So, will persist. Looked up NARM practitioners and slightly concerned it's not grounded (ie "clinical," reputable ie people who are dependable, or seem dependable to my young self). I don't mean this as being judgemental although I suppose it is. I do feel a little concerned that NARM doesn't seem widely circulated and there's only about five practitioners in a large city close to me. Though I guess this is how things start? There is also one who is accredited in the "regular" psychologist route and does neuroaffective touch maybe about an hour away. I will talk to t about seeing them as I think it would be beneficial.

I'm reading the second book called The Practical Guide for Healing Developmental Trauma and he does a good job of breaking down the differences between cptsd and ptsd. PTSD is shock and cptsd not so much. It's interesting that EMDR is used for shock. So, maybe not the most effective for cptsd?

He also writes that:

A young child who experiences environmental failure has the lived experience that they themself won't exist without connection and love.

Heller, Laurence; Kammer, Brad J.. The Practical Guide for Healing Developmental Trauma (p. 43). North Atlantic Books. Kindle Edition.

I feel like I have to keep rereading this because it makes sense why I keep subconsciously playing out these patterns with romantic interests. If they love me, my environmental failure, sense of danger will go away, but also I will be allowed to exist. It is about my identity. So, I keep looking for  romantic interests/being in a relationship  (that love of being wanted; safety of a relationship), but also fearing rexperiencing what happened when there was connection as an infant (that I wasn't allowed to "exist," or my identity was threatened/they wantt something from me=danger). I also think it's coming from such a young place that it feels very under the radar. I think it also makes sense why it was hard to separate from my family who said they "loved" me, and maybe why it is hard for me to accept that they did in their own way?

I also thought this was interesting, talking a little about how the NARM approach works:

Clinically, we track the movement between states of connection and patterns of disconnection with our clients. We will explain this process fully in chapter 6. For now, it is important to clarify that NARM therapists do not make it a goal to eradicate these patterns of disconnection; they also do not make it a goal to get clients into states of connection. The NARM approach supports clients to experience greater agency in relating to these old patterns of disconnection. We know that when our clients no longer need to automatically rely on these strategies of disconnection, they will move organically and spontaneously toward states of connection.

Heller, Laurence; Kammer, Brad J.. The Practical Guide for Healing Developmental Trauma (p. 57). North Atlantic Books. Kindle Edition.

I think awareness and agency (to me this is the game changer as they said in this second book) around when you are connecting vs disconnecting is important. For me, it hasn't been on my radar that this is a thing. It's what do I need to get done, how is someone responding to me, have I done something wrong, then proving why or why not -reposibility taking/not taking etc, why am I feeling off. I can also see that these are responses learned in the environment I grew up in, and how they are still very much a part of my (subconscious) life. I think actually looking inside for connection and disconnection (and naming that's what it is) was missing. I guess it can relate to some of those things, but perhaps it's more than that. I think connection and disconnection can also apply to "reality." I think it's also something that I don't think will happen, and fear will happen on a deep level.

[dollyvee]

Thank you Hope I want to say that I ook your comments to heart, whenever you were able to write them, and I feel like that a lot of the times as well. I can read what people write, but it takes some time to respond to them. I'm also sorry that you had to go through those things growing up.

I think it's quite incredible how we are able to function on different levels. Talking bout this stuff, I see the little girl who stood up for herself and said no, I don't like that, and then had to withstand everyone (family) trying to take that (identity?) away from her. So that in certain ways, she did feel like it was a problem to say things, and that maybe it's better to make yourself small, and that you don't want to be "difficult." But I think there is also (somewhere) the awareness that, no, these things aren't right, and that sh does deserve to be heard, and it's not her fault that they didn't listen to  her.

 

[dollyvee]

something else I guess in relation to what I wrote and Hope responded to (writing a lot today), is t discussing being objectified when we were talking about this. I had such a visceral, bad reaction to it that came up in my body that I sort of thought, yucky, and pushed it down. I feel like maybe it's good to start to take notice of things like this, or when that "push down" happens.

Also, at the gym last night and shifted into "adult consciousness" around someone and their actions (what felt like subtle passive-aggressiveness to me), which made me angry. However, it was also like I couldn't "do" something about it, and those feelings sort of evolved into helplessness (and then dissociation?), which I think is pretty familiar.

[NarcKiddo]

PTSD is shock and cptsd not so much.

This makes so much sense and yet it has not struck me before. In many ways the label "CPTSD" is incorrect in so many ways. Well, the P and the D at any rate are very misleading. But shock - yes, that seems to be an integral part of PTSD. But with CPTSD not so much, if at all. I can see how shock might be a part of it in circumstances where a child has a normal upbringing and then there is sustained trauma later in life. However, I then wonder whether someone who experiences sustained inter-personal trauma later in life has actually had a normal upbringing. They would probably think they had, because we all do since that is what we are conditioned to think.

I think it is good that your T is open to the book. Maybe it is not necessary for her to fully "get" it so long as she appreciates its importance to you. Maybe someone without the same or similar lived experience could not fully "get" it in the same way you do.

I agree with you that it is good to take notice of the visceral reactions and the push downs. I think we can learn a lot from those reactions. I've been paying attention to mine a lot more recently and discussing with my T. I am starting to get the feeling my visceral reactions are confirming things about my childhood that I cannot remember consciously because they happened when I was too young or I have been unable to form or support conscious memory.

[dollyvee]

Thanks NK - I think the rub with t is that she is quite "shock" oriented with EMDR and deep brain reprogramming (which I don't have a great body reaction to; something about the process doesn't feel right). The part that I really identify with with the NARM technique is agency and the confirmation that I do know what is best for me deep down. Though she did seem open to it a bit last time. This had never been said to me growing up, and I feel like this is where we butt heads when she will say something that I feel guides me to think something as an end result.  I can feel it happening and always feel defensive about this. I think it just reminds me of the power dynamics I had growing up. I feel like I'm going to have to say something like this approach doesn't work for me, it would be better as a suggestion (like asking what I thought about something I don't know). I'm rambling/worrying about the connection.

I hope you're able to find some space for the reactions coming up. I'm realizing it's such a big thing that I don't know where the reactions are coming from, or didn't know. My default survival style has been to stay in my mind. If I can do that, and evaluate the situation, I will be ok. But feelings aren't like that. I think it's been helpful to understand that this is how I process things to stay safe. During an IFS a few years ago, I had this rock like part that kind of stomped around, making noise (?), and not really listening, or reacting to me trying to interact with it. I think to calm it down, I put it in this kind of bunker/deep freeze (ha! thinking about this now). I'm guessing these were the preverbal reactions that happen on the inside that I don't know what to with, so I freeze them. I think the rock part was disruptive, and I can remember many times in the past where I was told that, or that children should be seen and not heard.
______________________

Interesting that they talk about the sense of being "bad" forming in a three month old baby in the book:

A three-month-old baby cannot say to themself, "My parents are under a lot of stress with finances, paying the bills, dealing with family issues, and that's why they go out and get drunk and come home fighting and be scary to us children. This isn't about me, it's about their troubles." Even if a young child could think this way, it would be too much for a child to experience that their caregivers are unable to meet their needs for safety, security, and well-being.

For a child in this situation, it is better to feel that they have done something wrong—and therefore there is hope they can fix it—rather than accept the helplessness that feels like annihilation and death.


Helplessness feels like annihilation and death. Then to have people in my life that I feel tried to make me feel small, put me in a position of helplessness, on top of the misattunement I felt as a baby. So, being close to people maybe feels like annihilation and death because this is what I knew when that feeling of misattunement comes up? As PC mentioned before, no one is perfect. They're going to have moments when they feel crappy, and snap for being upset, or moments of not being truthful. I know I have constantly looked before at their behaviour, paying attention to when things feel "off," or they seem mad at me, or are they deceiving me. Again, consciously I think I know that it's not me, but my body/subconscious is noticing that lack of connection, and it's not like I can easily say, ok stop doing that thing. I guess this is what makes relationships so difficult for me. There's also the opposite where their behaviour is not ok and I should be putting up boundaries, but it's like I don't know the difference.
_______________________ 

I had quite a few vivid dreams last night. I woke up around 2am and stayed awake for a while. I think I was half asleep, recalling the anxiety I have getting close to people, and had an image of my mom being angry with me, or something like that. I can't quite remember. I guess it felt very "big." It reminded me of an IFS where my mom was attacking/bullying me and wouldn't stop. I was also imagining a NARM sesssion, or someone speaking to me in a way that affirmed my agency, that I do know what is good for me, or something along those lines. I felt very soothed, regulated I think, and then all of a sudden the idea of sex popped up, and it felt so jarring. I noticed tension in my hip when it wasn't there a few moments before. It was just a bit odd like where did that come from?

Interestingly, I got the impression this morning (and what made me recall part of the above) is that the idea of somebody touching me makes me feel like i want to fight them/feeling very defensive. As I was writing this, I think I felt shame around that feeling coming up. Like I shouldn't be feeling that way, it's not "nice" in essence, and made me recall all the times I was praised as good growing up. Heller says that feeling anger, or even aggression, towards our caregivers threatens our attachment to them and this is where splitting into the good/bad child begins (?). When a child's needs are not being met, like in cases of abuse, neglect and chronic misattunement, they activate a protest response, which serves as an urgent response to their environment to get their needs met. This can then turn into anger or even rage and in ordeer to survive, they split because they cannot see their caregivers as bad.

[Papa Coco]

Dolly,

I know that fear of annihilation too. I think of it as the most terrifying of all human fears.

I used to think "God" would reward me for falling on my own sword and taking the blame so my FOO and church wouldn't have to.

Gads. What a confusing trip through life this has been.

I for one appreciate how you share these things you learn. You bring up stuff that really helps. I really like the bold sentence you posted:"For a child in this situation, it is better to feel that they have done something wrong—and therefore there is hope they can fix it—rather than accept the helplessness that feels like annihilation and death." It helps me frame my own situtation more realistically than me thinking I'm being good by taking the blame for everyone else's sins.

[dollyvee]

Thank you PC - I feel like I've been writing a lot lately as I grasp this NARM stuff. It doesn't always feel coherent, but I think it's because it's bringing up a lot of stuff. So, I'm glad/happy that it resonates with someone. How I went through life trying to "help" (to fix) things with my family so they will love and accept me, and I still do with people to a certain extent. That's all I did with my family who then didn't show up for me, or support me for being me. Any support it felt like, and I'm tired to repeating that as I imagine some us on here are too. You should't have to fall on your sword for your family. Perhaps it might be helpful to look into where this "blame" is coming from and what it is? I think for me it's always been there, the feeling of having to fix it, and "take it all on."

When I put my foot down, as I did with my mom that Christmas, or want someone to show up for me, I am often disappointed. I had hopes recently that it seemed like someone was interested in me and they would "show up," but looking at their actions, I feel like they're "hiding" from me. This could be because they are deceptive, or more likely, and possibly both, they struggle with their own issues around shame and showing their authentic selves. So, here comes the tricky part, I feel like it's time to move on because I'm being treated like an enemy (it feels), and I don't deserve that. My attachment system has been in an uproar and there's the subconscious part that wants to fix it (put myself out there, take responsibility), and keeps going back to it, but I've done that and it's not on me. Will this person be reasonable and understand (or even communicate)? It doesn't seem like it, but it would be interesting to think that there's hope they might. And here I am leaving my mom again and her blaming me for abandoning her. Me being again, the faulty one, the not nice one.

I also felt quite "overwhelmed" when I saw this person and didn't understand the hiding, what was going on, what they wanted from me. It's possible that mentally (adult consciousness) understood someone's need for space, but child consciousness does not. Ideally, someone would show up and understand that sometimes I am in child consciousness and would be supportive. However, it doesn't seem to work out that way. So, at times like these, I feel it's just better to remove myself from the situation. Now maybe a little bit better prepared to face the loneliness, or whatever lurks there, with the loss of an attachment figure. 

(when looking at this with adult consciousness, where I felt like they were pissy/angry because I was just looking at them, trying to gather information, out of interest about who this person is, I'm happy that I removed myself from the situation and went to another area to do my thing. I don't want to take stuff like that on. Did they wander over, out of their way to see where I had gone? Yes. Did they try to engage me and say hey (repair)? No. Sometimes it's about protecting yourself from other peoples' negativity (as I often couldn't do with my family). I guess there's the disappointment (right word? pain?) when the fantasy doesn't become the reality again, but I'm taking care of myself. Or maybe just repeating the same pattern again. Who knows?)

[dollyvee]

I don't know if the above makes a lot of sense. I spoke with t about it, and it feels difficult because I can look at what's going on from a lot of different sides and viewpoints. Perhaps though, the part that I feel like I discredit, or gets discredited, is the part of me who feels like I'm taking on negativity. It could be that this person was having a bad day (as suggested by t), but I also think there's a collection of "felt sense" negativity, and it sometimes comes down to t just seeing one instance of this in the example that I'm explaining. I'm not elaborating on the other times I felt this same thing. Then, it becomes, again, that I'm not trusting my "felt sense" for reason x,y,z when maybe it's valid. In other peoples' eyes, it could also be that I am putting my own ideas onto someone's actions. I just feel like it reminds me of all the times I had to take on other peoples' negativity growing up and there was no one to support me with that. Growing up in that environment sometimes gives you a "spidey" sense about things sometimes that's hard to justify to other people. It can also be hard for them to understand your reactions to things when you "know" there's something going on.

I would like to move on I guess from whatever illusion I had in my mind. I feel like I've been "hit with a brick" since this incident. I think this is very much the loss of attachment (illusion) that I had in my mind, and I am feeling everything behind it that I probably felt as an infant, that source of pain. When someone takes away your identity, say thank you. This is my "stuff" to deal with. I would not like to react to the other person, and be upset, as I have done in the past. Though it becomes difficult when you feel like they are reacting, and it becomes how am I not going to get dragged into this and let this fantasy go? (when I feel like I do need help with things sometimes and t wants to talk about interdependence). I guess it's the fantasy of how I want things to be vs how they actually are, and if I feel like there's negativity or dishonesty, then it's acceptable to put up some boundaries and it doesn't make me "bad" or "mean."

edit: writing this down has also helped me to see the connection between this incident and the IFS where my mom was in the cave, bullying me. Essentially, I had to take on her negative behaviour and she wouldn't leave me alone until I walled her up. I guess this feels like a repeat of that, or is evocative of that, and I can understand why I might be so sensitive to it, or it feels really strong.

[NarcKiddo]

Growing up in that environment sometimes gives you a "spidey" sense about things sometimes that's hard to justify to other people. It can also be hard for them to understand your reactions to things when you "know" there's something going on.

This resonates. Especially right now, for me, as my FOO has problems due to father's illness. I get messages which I am sure are loaded with subtext. But the bare text seems fairly neutral. So if I reacted as I want to I would look hysterical or weird. It's really hard to navigate situations where all the warning klaxons are going off but you seem to be the only one aware of them. Still, I think you are right to follow your instincts. The klaxons were not installed for fun. And maybe they are not all needed any more - but it's a tough job working out which are very valid and which are redundant.

I'm not surprised you feel like you've been hit with a brick. This stuff is really tough to handle. I think you're doing really well.

[dollyvee]

Thank you for validating that NK - I think it's fair to assume that you have probably had a history with your m and know the outcome of said texts where other people wouldn't have had that experience. So, you know that they're not just neutral texts. It makes sense to me that you would have that reaction. The klaxons are not installed for fun. I feel too, that we are told, we are out of the environment, we don't need to be hypervigilant any more. Yet, in times like these, maybe these people remind me of my FOO for a reason as you said.

For example, this guy I'm talking about seems to very protective of girls. I seem to have got in this situation again. My experience of these girls is that I've felt passive-aggressiveness from them before and am protecting myself. Am I being horrible to them? No, I just know what kind of two-facedness is happening and I prefer to wish them all the best and stand up for myself/ not deal with it. However, I feel like this person is treating me as if I'm being awful to them and he needs to stand in and protect them. Of course, I feel like when I explain this to t, or someone else, I'm told I'm putting ideas onto peoples' actions, or have to through a lengthy process of explaining why. Not all the time, sometimes people get it, but often times I'm just exasperated having to do that. Maybe this isn't the best example. It's funny though how it keeps happening.

What's interesting in the Healing Developmental Trauma book is that he talks about people (children) with the Connection Survival Style as having access to esoteric spiritual states because they have a failure to emobody. Listening to my "intuition" and dreams has helped me, even if it doesn't make sense to other people. I am sure there is a degree of hypervigilance mixed with the intuition which makes it difficult to discern what is real and what is past stuff. I know/think that the situation above has brought me back to the little girl in the cave with her mom bullying her, and once that happens, hypervigilant or not, it's not a ledge I'm going to come down from easily, or a connection I will be able to keep. I basically just go offline I think. Friendly, but offline, like I will never let you get to me. It sort of reinforces the idea I had of this person at the beginning that they want something from me. Maybe I was trying to talk myself out of feeling that and maybe there was reason to feel it, but wanted the fantasy of someone showing up for me. Like maybe this time it's different.

[dollyvee]

Some notes from the Practical Guide to Healing Developmental Trauma and some thoughts:

Most clients have spent their lives running away from their inner worlds, which causes lasting patterns of disconnection, disorganization, and ultimately suffering. In this chapter, we provide guidance on how to use exploratory questions in a
supportive way that helps connect clients with disconnected parts of themselves, thereby giving them an opportunity for greater organization and freedom from suffering.

Heller, Laurence; Kammer, Brad J.. The Practical Guide for Healing Developmental Trauma (p. 117). North Atlantic Books. Kindle Edition.

"Secure attachment is built upon authentic empathy, which emerges as caregivers recognize the uniqueness of their child and meet them with curiosity, openness, and interest.

Many children are not raised in such environments; their caregivers focus instead on the child's behaviors, performance, goals, and results, which can lead to a child feeling fundamentally unseen. It is a form of objectification when adults focus solely on correcting a child's behavior. This lack of empathy gives the child a sense that no one has interest in who they are underneath the behaviors.

The environmental failure is experienced by the child as their personal failure. Tragically, a child then learns to treat themself in ways that they were treated. If a child's openness and curiosity are minimized, unsupported, or attacked, they learn to do that to themself.

Chronically misattuned connection from caregivers leads to transactional relationships as children learn to adapt to the expectations of the adults in their world"

Heller, Laurence; Kammer, Brad J.. The Practical Guide for Healing Developmental Trauma (pp. 119-120). North Atlantic Books. Kindle Edition.

I think I understand a bit better why I keep feeling like people want something from me, and perhaps at times they do. I guess the below illustrates why maybe it is so hard to open up and meet people etc because perhaps it is just reinforcing the transactional relationships I had growing up. I know I place a lot of weight on the people who are genuine and not superficial. It feels very personal as well, like the superficiality is touching something in me; it's not just that's who they are, move on. At time, I think it does (or maybe more so in the past) elicit a judgemental response, which I feel was a form of protection, having no understanding of how to navigate these relationships. I don't think I had boundaries and it just became of repeat of what I had growing up - giving everything to someone because I was looking for acceptance (protection/right to exist), find out they don't see the "real" me (that it is transactional), then become disappointed and withdraw, or feel that it's something to do with me (I'm not fun, not this x, I don't fit in etc). Again, like PC mentioned, everyone is going through something and perhaps there are times when people might act in certain way. However, it's just like this stuff goes right to my core. It's just like regoing through the pain I had growing up all the time.

"Adult relationships are often transactional in the sense that one person is trying to get something out of the other person. Like a game of chess, these relationships can feel like navigating a set of strategies. As children and as adults, people are rarely met by another with openness, curiosity, and interest. It is our perspective that we are living in a time of a collective failure of empathy."

That being said, I think I have made a new friend. I think perhaps we click is because they are a doctor and have a sense of empathy as well as a mutual interest in the gym, but perhaps as well that we are both expats. I don't feel my usual "klaxons" going off and feel like I can be quite open (mostly I think) and animated in talking. I don't feel like that with more what I call "superficial" people and I guess I feel like I "should" have empathy and be curious about them (they are people), but I feel like something in me doesn't feel protected. I just go back to "that place," and I think I probably miss out on friendships this way. However, maybe I'm just doing things at my own pace too, which I think is important.

[Larry]