dollyvee's recovery journal

[NarcKiddo]

I think you are right to feel you have made progress. I can't necessarily point to a thing you said in the past vs a thing you say now like, say, your therapist could. But the very fact that you are prepared to step up here and say that you have is, to me, ample proof that you have - and probably more than you think. It seems to me that it is very hard for us to give ourselves credit without outside validation. The narcs made us fit their mould so we simply had no way, back then, to even have a view of who we were or what we wanted or whether we had succeeded or failed. We had to rely on the narc telling us, or the teacher giving us a gold star, or the employer saying they were pleased with our work. To have your own internal compass, to be able to step up and say "I've made a lot of progress" is huge.

I also think it is huge to be able to accept and acknowledge that things you expected to be problematic actually went fine. Living with a narc who shapes your entire existence means that one tends to go into every situation with some sort of preconceived idea of what it will be like. If something turns out to be nice that the narc said would be horrid, the cognitive dissonance is huge - plus of course there was the need to reassure the narc that it was, indeed, horrid and they were right all along. So being able to experience something for what it actually is, and then to say what it was like, truthfully, is huge.

[natureluvr]

I'm glad to hear that things went well for you yesterday morning.  I can relate to what you said about being self protective around other people.  I'm the same way, and I think we do this for very good reason.  As they say "once burnt, twice shy".  We've been hurt badly, so we are trying not to get hurt again.

[dollyvee]

Thank you NK - you're right, it is very difficult to give ourselves credit. At least for me, and actually have it "stick," and not have to be validated by someone else.

Thank you Natureluvr - Yes, and they say that it's old "stuff" (why we were burnt), but how to learn to distinguish between that and the present, or child and adult consciousness is something that I'm working on.

There has been a theme with the NARM t that every time she asks me to stop and feel something that might be "positive," or where there's "space" (for example, how connection might feel I think was one), it doesn't take long to be "surrounded" by the critical voices of my family (what feels like anxiousness/panic I think). NARM t has mentioned this several times about this lack of space, which is also why I think the comment from the Jay Reid book is interesting that there isn't any space between you and the narcissist (and their pathological projective identifications). So, yes I think it does feel big to recognize that these things went ok. I think I'm trying to work out where that lack of space comes from internally, and what are behind those feelings of "panic."

My gm was very big on things won't work out the way that you expect them to, or basically you can't do what you want. This applies to relationships (men) and even cooking, and to a number of other things I've taken on I'm sure. I remember these more from my time living with her as a teenager, but I'm sure they existed much earlier. I remember her saying, when I wanted to cook healthy, that you're never going to have time to do that, who has time to cook like that? Fast forward to a billion meal prep videos on Instagram for instance (depending on your algorithm), and lots of people have time to do it (maybe that's a fantasy life?). Funny how now cooking for myself is a "big thing." The other day I came home from the gym and was dreading making grilled chicken. Grilled chicken with lemon and oregano, steamed rice in the pressure cooker with greek salad, hummous and tzitziki takes maximum 30mins and usually have enough left over for several meals. At the end of it, I felt like that wasn't so bad. I enjoy eating this, it wasn't a chore to prepare, so why do I feel like it's so bad? Mentally, it's like trying to get a stubborn cow/horse to move that won't. It's just like I was expecting the worst in the email about my invoice. Something I want to do with my life (maybe that makes me an independent, functioning adult, and that I could derive pleasure from) somehow seems "wrong," or is dreaded. Interesting.

When I started IFS, I had a feeling like this wasn't my "stuff," but I couldn't really articulate, or questioned if that was it. I think I had to take these PPIs on as a young child, so much so that I don't think I recognized that they don't come from me. Like NARM t said, it's like they're right there. In the Jay Reid scapegoating book, he talks about the narissistic certainty that their beliefs were right, or true. I was often told by my gm that that just isn't the way the world works. Of course, it probably/usually had to do with something I thought or believed in. I can imagine as a child that you do form beliefs that this is the way the world works based on their certainty; they are adults so they must have insider knowledge and they seem so sure about it. There were probably (ha! of course there were) also consequences for not doing what they said, or going along with their version of reality. Survival for one.

There was also I feel, and I feel some shame coming up around this, something in what she said to make me dependent on her, so that I wouldn't grow up and be an adult ie be separate. I think the shame is coming from the fact that a part of me didn't want to leave her (despite how she was using me I guess) because things were so chaotic growing up, and I guess that's what I knew. Or I believed her to be the protector that I needed. However, I think I was also molded into the idea of being her protector and rescuer, and if I didn't do those things, I must be a bad person. I think going back through the reports is good because she's not always the victim she portrayed herself to be (that I was then supposed to take care of. As a child. ie "one day you're going to want to leave me." Of course I won't, why would I want to hurt my gm like that who loves me so much?). I guess it's about understanding how these things shape my internal experience and my life as an adult now, which sometimes seem hard to keep hold of.

[dollyvee]

Something interesting (?) happened with the NARM t happened that kind of spun me out yesterday. I was explaining my apprehension about taking care of myself, or what it felt like to be that "big" protective person, in charge and helping a young girl (me?) in a "vision" I had about a romantic interest. (Backstory is I woke up in the middle of the night and asked what I needed to "see" about this person and this scenario popped up in my head. Why with a romantic interest? Perhaps because it's the (very young) part of me that feels I need someone to take care of me/protect me).

Anyways, when I was connecting to the idea of what it felt like, I had an impression of a smell which reminded me of being in other peoples' homes probably around 6/7? Like when you would go over to someone's house to play. It wasn't a good or bad smell, just different but also maybe like I didn't like it? A connection came when I realized that around this age there wasn't really someone to take care of me, or I didn't want to be babysat by the person my m had hired (they were a fan of smoking pot etc around the kids, so  you can imagine the environment etc). So, I was on my own a lot after school, taking care of myself. This was also around the time that I was being left at home alone at night while my m went out to party. I guess I can understand the overwhelmingness of having to take care of myself, and what that must've felt like, which is maybe why I doubt the ability to do it now.

NARM t asked me if it was ok to do something like that and leave your children home alone (I think she did, I can't remember exactly). My response was probably not, but almost as a question. It's interesting because I feel like there's another part which is very indignant about how people treat children and would say no, but I struggled to speak from that part to someone else. Something that also came up during the session was a feeling or recollection of saying things to people and not being believed, or that someone is not going to believe me. This also feels similar to feeling like I'm making something up when expressing emotion, or that I'm doing it to manipulate. I think I've been struggling lately with being "heard."

[natureluvr]

Dollyvee said

Something I want to do with my life (maybe that makes me an independent, functioning adult, and that I could derive pleasure from) somehow seems "wrong," or is dreaded. Interesting.

I don't know if this is true for you, but at least for me, I was trained to believe that I was unworthy, and therefore did not deserve to do good things for myself.  I was trained to believe that taking care of myself was selfish, and that I should only be concerned with taking care of the narc and others.  It's brainwashing in my opinion.

Dollyvee said

This was also around the time that I was being left at home alone at night while my m went out to party. I guess I can understand the overwhelmingness of having to take care of myself, and what that must've felt like, which is maybe why I doubt the ability to do it now.

This makes me angry  to think of you being left all alone at such a young age by a selfish mother going to a party.  Shame on your mother for being so immature and irresponsible.  BTW my parents did the same to us, but left us with a maid (we lived in a country where hiring maids was very cheap).  That wasn't much better, since they didn't vet the maid to see if she was a trustworthy person to leave with young children.

I'm sending you thoughts and prayers of healing, if that is OK. 

[dollyvee]

Thank you natureluvr  for what you said about my m being selfish to do that  It helps me to remember that yes, it was incredibly selfish to do it. Somehow that behaviour was just always excused and that's "just the way she is" as my gf said to me one time.

Thank you for what you said about trained to do everything for the narc as well. I learned about something today called fetal microchermism where fetal cells are found in the mother years and years after birth. As well, and I need to do more research to see if this is true, the fetus's cells will apparently rush to the mother if there is an issue in an attempt to help her survive ie heart cells from the baby rushing to help the mother if she has a heart issue. Even in the womb I was there to help my mother survive and try to protect that relationship on a cellular level. It's something that's inherent. Apparently, the fetus's cells will live on independently in the mother, even after abortion etc, and I wonder too, if they live on the same way in the child?

I'm watching a Patrick Teahan video on HSP and he's said a couple interesting things about family ie the kinds of toxic families and one was the idea that you're supposed to rescue us and not be your own person, which involves (deals with?) manipulation and identity issues. This is very apt given what I've been learning lately, and how manipulative it did feel when I was expected to take care of my gm (and interesting how the idea came up that I was being manipulative when describing my own emotions, or being emotional around someone).

He also describes the HSP as holding all the emotional tension in the family, or being aware of it. With what it said in the report that was also my role with my gm and that I had to hold all her feelings, and make her feel better when there was a crisis, or she was upset. It them became about me not having any feelings, or being aware of them (even though I was probably pretty attuned to what was going on) because it was my job to rescue her, and then came the anger over that manipulation. (Hmm something else coming up is my "existence" or feeling of who I am as person (the "good" in me for feeling these things and wanting to help) is then based on her and without her, I'm not a "good" person? ie all these highly sensitive feelings exist because it was my job to attune to her? And without her, I would be what? Or maybe that's just the narrative of the benevolent protector?)

I read part of the report to t and when she stopped on the idea that my m experienced physical violence as a toddler, I became defensive and it became maybe more about being "believed" if that makes sense. I was journaling about this and what I was trying to say today, and it wasn't that my m didn't experience something, or there wasn't domestic violence, but how the narrative could be used to portray my gm as a benevolent protector instead of maybe using it as an excuse to leave someone who wasn't providing a certain lifestyle (given the language in the report and how she was describing the biological gf). Was this all done evilly or consciously and it was plotted out? (it seems like framing things in questions is my new thing -haha) No, I don't think so, but perhaps it's using something that happened to justify a sense of entitlement to a certain lifestyle that she wanted, where underneath it all, it was about her. Where is that sense of responsibility actually lying? With her providing for herself or in doing what's right for the child? In a later report when describing the marriage, she said it was tough (financially), but they did ok. It brings up how important money was again as a family narrative.

When I was writing this out I felt for myself that I'm sorry I had to go through something like that (to even acknowledge that SA might have happened is a big thing) and that it wasn't supposed to be about someone else's crisis. I think that having this happen gives me the belief that my needs don't matter, and it had to continue in order to rescue my family, to help someone when they're down (at my expense), and was not about protecting me as a child. Taking this on was me protecting my relationship to that caregiver.

I also like what Patrick Teahan says about reframing your identity as an HSP child where you were probably mocked, or felt alienated in your family for being sensitive, and that it's your identity and you get to describe it, not toxic people. I'm bolding that last one because I think it's so, so important. These voices and what I'm "like" continue to live on in me, and as he said in the video, it's affirming to value emotions and to value sensitivity. I definitely wasn't allowed to do this with my mother, and could with my gm, but it was manipulated. Being sensitive was great for me to take care of her and be loving, but other people would take advantage of me (I mean LOOOOOLLLL at the irony of that when she was the one taking advantage of me - crazymaking). As disparate as they seem, I think there is a connection between me valuing my identity (as a sensitive person) and the idea of protection. If I don't feel protected, I'm not going to want to show my authenitic self to people, and if that idea of protection was warped, and not actually protective at all, then it's going to feel "off" again to show up as authentic.

edit: how interesting that this morning I closed this tab thinking that I had already posted this. Luckily, I recovered it because I think it's important. It could be just an "oversight" on my part, but it's funny sometimes how these things "seem" to happen.

[dollyvee]

I also wanted to say that I was trying to track my response to connection with my new "friend" yesterday, as we agreed to meet up. It's so interesting how I seem to shut down or avoid that connection as if I can't be my "true" self around this person and be accepted ie like I have to stand up for myself vs "be nice," or she's going to think I'm crazy for how much other peoples' behaviour rattles me. Something to pay attention to. It's also interesting how it showed up in the dream with my gm that people wouldn't think I was "nice" because of the way I was behaving.

I was having a conversation with some men at gym, it was casual as we all happened to be in the same place at the same time. They were "bantering" and it was quite funny. It's something I've gotten quite good at too, working with a lot of men, and obviously given my upbringing, I have more of a dark sense of humour. I think one of the men was trying to ask me out. I've seen him a round a little bit and he's a bit older, and I would say solicitous? But not in a creepy way, just like a grown lad, but also has his stuff together? So, I did what I do when people like that show some romantic interest, which is be cordial and slowly remove myself from the situation. Maybe pretend I didn't hear it? I don't think this reaction was coming from that we're probably different people and not compatible (and how do I know if we are? and is going out for drinks going to get me into trouble? maybe I knew what was coming and tried to head it off?), but probably more from in my makeup somewhere (not somewhere, gm) that we stay away from men. I think I also caught a flash of my m's relationship with my sf and how difficult that was, and how much it probably shaped this feeling as well, driving home last night. What's the issue? That, like with the other new friend, if I went out they would be expecting something from me? I guess in that situation, I'm an adult and could say no, but then I'm left with not being seen and treated like an object again, which was so familiar growing up. And what's on the other side of that? That maybe they would actually be caring and that I could trust them to help me? And here's another issue, why say help? Am I expecting someone to rescue me like my gm?

I also realized that there is an underlying feeling with people that no one is really going to be there for me, or protect me. I guess a part of me knows that I'm an adult and I can do those things for myself, but the other part is still living in that dangerous world where the people who said they were going to protect you, didn't. Which, I think I felt on some level, but haven't been able to see why cognitively until recently.

I had a dream last night that I was driving a van and waiting I think to get into a parking garage (?)/ somewhere. I left the van (not sure if I went to drive another car), but I came back and they had towed the van. Oddly enough, I had another dream recently about driving a van and it had to do with convenience or practicality, and/or consider the load that you are carrying and what you can handle, and to not stress yourself out. A Tow truck can be about help with burdens, or perhaps needing to release burdens, and also emotional overwhelm (there also seems like there's a disproportionate amount of new AI websites around car being towed dream interpretation). Maybe I do need help in life and need to let these things go? That I'm not willing to let people into my life to help me?

Also, have finished watching the Jinx Season 2 and I don't know if anyone else is watching it, but the last episode and what lengths people were willing to go to to cover up what he did (spoiler: most of them did it for money) made me reflect on my family and what I've been writing about recently. Only the victims weren't murdered, the victim was me (and probably my m who also became a "perpetrator"). Money was an excuse for peoples' abhorrent behaviour and me thinking that I needed some sort of protection (ie without them there wouldn't be financial security which was so impressed upon me) went along with it to some degree. And to some degree I didn't, feeling that I wasn't going to do what they said just because I would get cut out of the will (but then also worrying about how I would support myself and choosing the safer option at times because I would be on my "own" and there is no one "there" for me in my mind).

I'm thinking about some of the things that have happened and it's making angry. I guess it made me angry too when they happened, but also sort of suppressed? When my gf died, I was away at university. My brother outright lied about enrolling in school (I'm pretty sure now) to my gf because he knew my gf would cut him out of the inheritance and property that we inherited together. When I got back my family (my mom and my gm was there I'm pretty sure I remember them saying) had gone through the property, taking everything of value ie watches etc. Everything else was left as it was. Everything. I came back, took all the clothes to good will, and cleaned it all out. I asked for help from my m and brother who were too "busy." Both my m and brother weren't working. As an outlet, I complained to my gm and sgf about their behaviour. I thought it would do something? Like I was understood? I don't think I fought because fighting was too overwhelming and I guess I knew it wouldn't get me anywhere. It was like being stuck. But looking back on it now, it just makes me really, really angry. I can imagine my gm's reaction about me getting angry. Who knows maybe I did get angry at the time, but it just got absorbed into that wall of bs. And now I'm just angry (healthy anger though I think and also some grief) that I'm the one that had to take this stuff on. My adult brain is saying no, or feeling like there's another part stepping in, and being like don't give these people anything, and is aware of everything I gave and how it fell on "deaf ears." Not in a spiteful way, but because it knows that it's not good for me and there's not going to be anything similar in return (I mean here's the whole discussion about selfless giving etc, but I don't think it comes from a deficit in yourself first). I guess this is healthy selfishness. I guess too, I am feeling compassion for the me that felt it had to do those things in order to keep the relationship (and feel like I was being understood). I could go on too, about my sgf taking that piece of gold (under the guise of wanting something to remember by gm) and not acknowledging that he was taking it from me. At the time it seemed like speaking up about this was me making a big deal about something, and then again not feeling "heard" by extended members of my family who I hoped I could confide in (?). But I wasn't making a big deal about something. The moral compass of everyone around me was just so off and I had never been able to say anything about it as a child, even though I think I tried. I guess it's not my identity anymore to do these things for people, or have bad feelings (right word?) because I'm not going to carry these things for people.

I think, looking back, one of the feelings or constants, was feeling like I could confide in my gm about these things, or what was going on emotionally, and is why I went to her, thinking that she would be there as she was in the past. On some level, that felt good. I guess it was familiar, and on another level, I guess it felt off. It so difficult to have that discussion with someone where every time you bring something up, they ask why you're mad at them, or take it very personally. It wasn't fair to ask me as child, to be the person (the saviour/rescueer) that she wanted/expected me to be, to make her feel better. I also don't think, unfortunately, there was any way of communicating that to her, and it doesn't make me a bad person for doing what I did.

[NarcKiddo]

I'm interested in the whole situation surrounding the guy at the gym. (Ignore if you'd rather not revisit.) I totally get why you would cordially remove yourself from the situation but it seems kind of unusual that he would choose a time when you are bantering with a group of lads to suggest an outing. I have been off the dating scene for over 30 years but back in the day if someone asked me out it would be at a time when it was just the two of us chatting (even if we were notionally part of a group). Of course that makes it very much more direct and means that you have to give much more of a definite yes or no answer. At any rate if the man is interested it is quite likely he may make some approach again so at least you have an opportunity to consider how you feel about that and whether you would want to encourage or discourage him.

Back a bit you mentioned being left alone when your mother partied. And natureluvr has experience of that. And so do I. Yet another example of similar behaviour patterns we have experienced.

I have come across references to foetal microchermism. I found the concept rather repellant and have not read much about it. I also found myself very much hoping that it does not work the other way round. I REALLY don't want her cells anywhere near me!

[Chart]

The moral compass of everyone around me was just so off and I had never been able to say anything about it as a child, even though I think I tried.

I so identify with your comment here... how to deal with inappropriate behavior of others... wow, yes, self confidence is so important and as kids we just don't have sufficient experience to stand our ground... at least I never did.

My parents used to party "with" me and my sister, doing drugs in front of us. I was ten or eleven and remember it well. They also told us to not mention any of that at school... duh 🙄

[dollyvee]

Thank you NK - I also had the same reaction regarding her cells in me. Nope. I'm sorry you were left on your own as well. I think there's a lot of unsettling feelings for me about that.

I get what you're saying. The situation was a bunch of us in a spa. They were chatting and because of the conversation, or that one of the guys was saying quite funny things, I was laughing and asked a couple questions and made some comments. If I had to make a read on the situation, I would say that they had tentative plans to do something and perhaps him mentioning to his mate, "I was thinking about showing our friend here x," was possibly him gauging the reaction of the group about inviting a random person out with them for the evening/what they had planned. Perhaps in a get to know you, more friendly way than straight up asking for my number.

I'm always quite a bad judge of situations like this however. I don't like situations like that where I feel like the attention is focused on me. I guess it comes with being objectified, but also that feeling of humiliation creeps up in things like this where I guess I will be "seen" and people will make fun of me. I guess it sounds like a jump, but there it is. I guess on the surface, I wouldn't really fancy this person even though there was some fun. I don't know if I'm waiting for that person who's going to see "me" it feels like. Anyways 

Thank you Chart for what you wrote. I'm sorry you had to go through that with your family as well. I don't think we should be expected to do that as children, and it's our parents that should have done it for us. Maybe that's why I feel like I have such a hard time standing my ground now.

[Chart]

Maybe that's why I feel like I have such a hard time standing my ground now.

Yeah, I hear you. It's hard for me too. I come back to your idea of the "moral compass". I find this idea so appropriate. It's like we know intrinsically what is right and wrong, but just lack the experience needed to resist what we know is wrong. I can do it when my "adult" is strong, but the child that remains inside me and literally continues to control so many of my feelings and reactions, still doubts.

[dollyvee]

I think it's important not to blame yourself when things come up. For me, I guess it's in a not not taking responsibility way, but that there wasn't a road map for me laid out like it would be with good enough parents. I guess it's important to look at those things and, in a way, we're all here to understand our shadow selves. Sometimes I also feel like there were such impossibly high standards that were set out that there's no way for me to be that "good" of a person, or to look at where those ideas of good/bad right/wrong come from. For me, it was "bad" to be angry and I strove to be a "good" person because that was my role in the family, to rescue them. None of which are possible, or were fair to me as a child.

I was looking up something regarding IFS and found something interesting that I'd never considered before, that this feeling of "fighting," or fighting to protect myself around people is actually probably a firefighter. Lightbulb. I'd never considered that before. It's not "survival" as it feels like, it's managing the feelings of an exile that are leaking out (whom I guess is worried about survival). These people are not going to overpower me, these are the feelings of being overpowered at one time, and now is a different time. I guess it reminds me of being a certain age when there was no one around. How do I not let people like that "hook" me and to let it go? My instinct (reaction) is fight back, to be seen and heard I guess, so that I matter, I exist (?). But I exist and matter without people like that determining my worth as a person. I guess growing up I was dependent on my family's opinion/being there for survival and determining my worth as a person.

[Chart]

I agree Dollyvee. I imagine it in my mind as the "self" simply being fragmented and incomplete. Without a moral model we are immediately in conflict with what is presented to us and what we need to survive, versus what we inherently and intrinsically 'know' is right or wrong. This conflict is what can so easily lead to schizophrenia, depression, all the pathologies known. But as with everything, there is a spectrum of severity too. This is related to the severity of the trauma and abuse, but also the unique genetic component of individual variation. And as you say this is all in the past.

[NarcKiddo]

And another similarity.

My mother's moral compass is way off. I'm not really sure if she even has one. My father seems to have one but I am not sure whether it is for show to other people. He's an enigma, really.

Chart - I am interested to read that your parents used to "party" with you. My mother would do that, too. In every possible way. As a young child she would put on lavish birthday parties for me with lots of games and she would participate. Later, she would happily get blind drunk with her friends. She encouraged us to drink alcohol from an early age, claiming that "just a taste" would not harm. When I was 16 she offered me a cigarette. I had never smoked but did not dare to say no so I smoked it.

As for a general moral compass - we were encouraged to lie. Truth must not be told. Even to this day if asked a question I think carefully about whether a lie would be a better answer than the truth. Even a really simple question like "would you like a cup of tea?". We were encouraged to do the dirty on other people. It was awful, really. My paternal grandmother had a moral compass. I was sent to boarding school and the housemistress also did. I credit those two women with teaching me some decent values. At least I knew where to find some sort of road map when I was ready to look for it. But the dissonance is huge when living right in the midst of it. I mean, we had to be "good" but only in accordance with their definition of "good".

[dollyvee]

I put in a request today for my child services records if there are any. I'm hoping to find the report from the clinic I was evaluated at for CSA and see what they had to say, something that wasn't filtered through the family or someone else's memory.

I finished reading Believing Me today by Ingrid Clayton. I don't think there's anything I've read that so aptly explains what happened to me and how/why it's still affecting me to this day. I can theoretically know that I have developmental trauma or what my trauma response is, but this is the first thing I've read where I can go, yes that was abuse what happened to me. Gaslighting is emotional abuse.