Possible antisocial personality disorder?

[goblinchild]

So I'll never know if this is really the case, and I'm usually not one to guess. But it's the best suggestion of a word to get my point across, I think.

With my parents, who are both very manipulative, I'm learning to take solace in the fact that their abuse came from a place of shame they had for themselves, taken out on me. More specifically, in present day when I'm inundated with an inner critic the way I'm beginning to deal with it is to remember where the shame and critic came from.

But what about when an abuser doesn't seem to feel shame? What about when people just genuinely want to hurt you to make themselves feel better? And they're not sorry. And they don't think they've done anything wrong at all. I can still get caught in a downward spiral about like... the fact someone can harm me and genuinely think hurting me isn't wrong. Human worth. Human rights. The cruelty of it all. I'm not really sure how to dig myself out of this hole? I'm not sure if what I'm feeling is even shame. I can't put shame back where it came from if there is none. Is this a question of basic worth? Maybe I have to put a belief or way of thinking (i.e. lack of human worth) back where it belongs and firmly establish my own ideas of basic wroth? That sounds difficult.

[Not Alone]

I can't put shame back where it came from if there is none.

Just because they don't feel shame doesn't mean that it doesn't belong to them.  A long time ago I told my mother that I forgave her. Her response was that she didn't do anything that needed forgiveness. Ummm....if authorities had known what was going on, she could have gone to jail.  She had responsibility for what she did even though she was not willing to accept or acknowledge her actions.

[Kizzie]

There may be genuinely evil people around who have made a conscious decision to hurt others, but when it comes to PDs like us there is a history of trauma as I understand it.   

I read somewhere once that although those w/NPD appear to have big egos in fact they are minuscule due to the relational trauma they went through and so they must protect themselves at all costs. The psychological gymnastics they went through helped them to survive, but in the course of that something essential to being human - empathy - was broken/discarded.

That was the cost for them and sadly for those around them. It allows them to hurt others without remorse, shame, etc, the things most of us feel when we've wronged someone.  In the case of NPD it allows them to blame those they hurt as being responsible for their situation, too sensitive, etc. 

FWIW I think you're worth asking questions about shame and inflicting pain knowingly, it helps to build boundaries that keep us safe from those who would hurt us.     

[Eidolon]

I can relate to this personally, my mother was the same- as was an abusive sibling. I'll never know if they actually experienced remorse for the things they did to me or if I'm going to be left with internalized shame for the things they did instead. There's a specific type of shame that comes with it, where it's like feeling extra vulnerable. "If they did it on purpose, then what am I actually worth?" and that kind of thing. It takes time to recognize your own worth and with that specific type of abuse it can take a bit longer. But you're worth much more than what they did to you.

[Papa Coco]

My second oldest sister (Borderline Personality Disorder BPD) and my brother did horrific things to me during my life. Also, my best friend in the 5th grade (A sociopath) betrayed me far beyond my ability to comprehend. These people turned my entire life into a horror film I didn't want to live in anymore. I carried the most horrible desire to figure out what I'd done to make them so angry at me for my entire life. If only they could see what they'd done to me, maybe they'd finally apologize. But at around 50 years old (eleven years ago), I started reading books about sociopaths. I started with short books like "In Sheep's Clothing" by Dr. George K Simon. Then "Emotional Vampires" by Albert J Bernstein. Then I started reading longer books like "The Sociopath Next Door" by Dr Martha Stout. These books were like a jug of fresh cool water in a long desert walk. I learned so much about toxic people that I broke free of them, but the one thing that finally broke their spell over me was I was finally able to fully understand that they only did what they did to me because it was fun for them to torture another living soul. It wasn't about me!!! I was just the prey that wandered into their field one day so they attacked me just like they've attacked countless other good souls throughout their ugly, disgusting, predatory lives. The one thing that finally broke their spell over me was that I was finally able to stop believing that one day they would feel sorry for what they'd done.  As soon as I fully grasped that they were incapable of ever apologizing to me, their ugly, hateful voices left my head. After fifty long, torturous years, I was finally free from them. I'd stopped waiting for an apology!!! And now I can spot a sociopath from a mile away. I can ignore their advances like I'm their cryptonite. Learning about them through these easy to read books set me free. I used to say "If everyone has a path to follow, why do I always follow the sociopath?" Well I don't follow them anymore. Now I see them. I gag, "Yuck", and they sense that I'm not their prey anymore and they go away looking for some other clueless victim to do to them exactly what they'd done to me. It really IS about them, not about us. We were prey because we were good people. This is all on them.

[Dante]

A couple of things come to mind reading your post and the responses.

The first thing that I think I have finally started to learn is to stop asking why.  I've spent a lot of my life ruminating over why.  Why was I so bad that I was treated this way.  Why wasn't I born good.  Why does whatever creative force runs this universe allow bad stuff to happen (in spite of some bad experiences with religion, I am still spiritual, but I have no urge to force others to believe what I do).  Why did so and so do such and such (this is a big one, I've got a couple of holes where I just can't make sense about what happened, and I figure I must just have some gaps).  I have to just let go.  The past is the past and whatever happened happened, and all that matters is now.  As they say in "the rooms", TWYLALTR.

The second thing is in terms of personality disorders.  I believe my M has NPD but I also know she has diagnosed PTSD from her own abusive childhood.  I suspect my F had PTSD from abuse at the hands of clergy member.  They both had things that "made them the way they were".  I have come to accept that and even to forgive a little (my M also says "what do I deserve forgiveness for, but I don't feel I have to explain it to her anymore").  But that doesn't mean I don't protect myself (I haven't fully extricated from my M, but I do set boundaries).  And the forgiveness is for me, not for them, so that I don't ruin what life I have left with resentment.

[Papa Coco]

Another thing I've learned is that since I'm not a trained professional I can't diagnose who has NPD or Sociopathy, or BPD, or Psychopathy, or any other Anti-social behavior. But as a human I do have the right to protect myself. I can still decide who is toxic to me. I like to say, "If I come across her in the woods, and she's in a black dress, holding out an apple for me to eat, I can't diagnose if she's a witch or not, but I can choose to not eat the apple." By arming myself with knowledge, through reading books and studying Anti-social behaviors, I am getting pretty good at spotting these toxic people through their toxic behaviors. In most cases, just by not listening to their manipulative voices, they usually just walk away and look for someone who isn't wise to them. WC Fields used to jokingly say, "Never wise up a chump."  Well, this chump eventually got wised up, and now I'm not a meal for toxic people anymore.

Maybe my toxic abusers were abused also. Maybe they have PTSD also. Maybe they were born NPD with no ability to feel remorse. Or maybe they're just fighting back from what was done to them in their pasts. Doesn't matter. The Golden Rule still applies--Treat others as you would have them treat you. I have the right to protect myself. Knowing why they're toxic doesn't lesson the damage they can do to me. All I need to know is that I'm vulnerable to their poison. I don't eat food I'm allergic to, so why would I continue to associate with someone who's unapologetically toxic to me? So, no matter why they attack, I now walk away. I was abused sexually at church when I was seven and mob-bullied (aggressively isolated) until I was thirteen. I begged my family for help and they called me a liar. From birth on I was held responsible for their happiness and ignored when I needed help. I don't care why they were toxic. I was as abused as they were—possibly worse. I didn't pass the abuse on to my children like they did. I sought help! So I know they didn't have to treat me how they treated me. I broke the cycle of abuse. They chose to keep it going. Now I have the right to simply call them toxic and be done with them. If they're suffering too, they can seek help just as I've done. The tools for healing are as available to them as they are to me.

[Dante]

Well said, and totally agree.

[bluepalm]

Yes, Papa Coco, well said and I totally agree. It is refreshing for me to read what you say so well and so bluntly.

For years I've tied myself in knots trying to understand why my parents and my former husband behaved as they did towards me. I've tried to excuse them, diagnose them, comply with that dictum about 'focusing on the behaviour, not the person'. Only recently have I come to the position that you state so well.

We all have a choice. They chose to abuse and all the evidence I have is that they enjoyed it. In fact they revelled in it. My mother had a frozen expression. Her face rarely expressed anything but distance and anger. But I once saw a micro expression on my mother's face as she said something cruel to me and it was as if an evil troll peeped out, laughing gleefully at the distress she was knowingly causing me. An unforgettable and totally unexpected moment. And so revealing.

Like you, I chose to seek help and did not pass on the abuse to my children. My impulse, when I knew I was pregnant with my first child was to seek therapy to understand what had happened to me so I would NOT pass that on to my children. It has remained a central concern of my parenting.

It shows me how insidious the impact of abuse can be that I still hesitate to give myself credit for doing that, although I have reached the point where I can state clearly that my parents and my husband, given the way they treated me, were evil people - that is, they were profoundly immoral and wicked people. No excuses, no diagnoses, no deflection. They were at their core evil. And I was their victim, not through any wrongdoing by me - rather by accident of birth and because I was then defenceless against the first predator who identified me as a compliant victim.

[Dante]

I would like to say that I didn't pass it on to my children.  And I live every day trying not to.  But I didn't know what it was for the early part of their life.  I was never deliberately cruel to them, never got enjoyment from any distress, and never once made them feel that they had to earn love from me.  I know this for a fact.  It's one of the few things I know I've done right. 

But I also had an awful temper and though I tried hard to hold on to it, I know there are times when I melted down and lost it and made their home a scary place for them.  I hate that, and I will hate it with every fiber of my being until the day I die.  I know now more about what triggers me, and I know to separate myself and melt down safely and not expose them to it.  But I see signs that they too will need some help, though not I hope to the same extent.  They both have evidence of hypervigilance, but they do both also know they are loved for who they are.  And I've apologized to them and tried to help them to understand now that they are old enough.  They are aware of my family dynamics, and understand why we never see my family (and can clearly discern on their own their grandmother's NPD).

But I hate that about my past.  It's my biggest regret.

[Papa Coco]

Hi Dante,

The more I read of your posts, the more I like you.  LOL.

I'm impressed by how emotionally evolved you are. Your willingness to face any temper issues you've expressed puts you in the top percentile of good people in this world. Too many adults won't admit they ever did anything they regret. Regret can be painful, but consider this: It proves you're not a sociopath. I too suffer with constant regret for everything I've ever said that wasn't 100% uplifting to any soul. About twice a year I go to Ted Talks and rewatch "Don't Regret Regret" by Kathryn  Schultz. It's about 17 minutes long and it helps a lot...for a while. Then I just watch it again and it helps again.

TW: Untimely De*th of loved ones

I hope that your admission of regret goes a long way with your kids. I can share that it would have gone a long way with me if my parents had ever openly shared any remorse. My little sister passed away by her own hand in the summer of 2008--due to the same family shame I deal with. Her passing is the most horrible thing I've ever had to deal with. Our mother gave up on life at that very moment. She cried every day, as did I. She continually announced that she did NOT want to live to mother's day that year. Astonishingly, her kidneys gave out in February and she passed away from organ failure at home 9 minutes before Mother's Day 2009. After that time, I finally started telling my eldest sister (the only good person left in my entire family) the details about the abuse I'd taken as a child and as an adult. I told her how if I ever tried to talk to Mom about why I'm so suicidal and depressed, she'd just combatively shut me down by saying "Well I did the best I knew how." Then my sister told me that Mom used to confide in her that she was deeply sorry for putting me in Catholic school AND for not listening to me when I begged her to help me. I nearly had a breakdown. Why didn't Mom tell ME she was sorry? Why did I have to wait until after she'd passed to find out she was secretly telling other people that she was sorry for what she'd done to me?

I believe that in most cases, our children want to love us, just as much as I wanted to love my parents. Any regret or admission of mistakes by my imperfect human parents would have gone a long way with me. At least I'd have known that eventually she respected me as a valid person and not just a family pet. She died letting me believe that she was perfectly okay with the pain she'd caused me, WHILE she was telling the people around me that she was deeply sorry for it. That's just insane!

[Dante]

Hi Papa Coco, I'm so sorry for your loss.  I also lost someone important to me through suicide, and though it's been more than 30 years, it still affects me.  And I'm sorry that your FOO couldn't say they were sorry.  You deserved that.

Regarding your M and her regrets, I have also experienced that my M is capable of expressing remorse, without feeling any actual remorse.  It's part of her toolbox to shut down anything that might require her to actually connect with another human being, while playing up her victim card.  I'm not saying the same thing is the case with your M, but if she truly regretted what she'd done to YOU, she would have apologized to you.