CPTSD, SIBO & the Vagus Nerve - Wowee

[dollyvee]

Have had health issues for ages with unexplained root cause(s). I always figured it was somehow related to the effects of chronic stress (high cortisol causing inflammation etc) but wowee I think I may have cracked it: SIBO and more interestingly, SIBO's effect on the vagus nerve. That nerve that runs throughout our whole body and is modulates our response to stress, anxiety and other CPTSD related factors.

Have had very diverse symptoms for years - unexplained weight gain (always told it's what I'm eating/exercise etc even when I am tracking calories), sometimes when I eat my food would get stuck in my throat, skin rashes, intolerance to wine (like blackout drunk but somehow functioning after only two glasses. A medic told me it's because my body gets toxic really fast), enamel wearing off my teeth despite brushing and flossing everyday (again was told it's my oral hygiene), low folate, iron. Doctors always suggested therapy as they couldn't find a cause.

After tracking my weight/calories/gym routine for the last three months and losing body fat but no kgs, I started looking into possibilities why and found a connection between SIBO and weight gain due to slower intestinal transit time. Bam! Or first Bam as I was able to lose weight before on a calorie restricted diet. My trainer said maybe I had done metabolic damage but that didn't sit right. The second time I tried to cut weight on a calorie restricted diet was after covid. Apparently, covid is also a disease of the gut and can affect your gut microbiome (why they are starting to do rectal tests in China). Ok interesting. This led me to look at the different kinds of SIBO and their symptoms where I saw that Hydrogen Sulfide SIBO can give you a reaction to wine. Bam Bam! After trying the rough and ready test of peptobismal to confirm - it looks like yes, I do have SIBO. Hydrogen Sulfide is also a by product of H Pylori, which I did have and treated about five years ago. After I cleared the H Pylori, I went to the doctor as it still felt something was not right but of course they told me it was all in my head.

As I started to address the Hydrogen Sulfide SIBO, it gave me some very real herx reactions/ die off (neck pain) which is where I learned of the connection between SIBO and the Vagus Nerve. BAM! I've heard about the gut-brain axis but this is it. The vagus nerve is what helps control our physiological symptoms of anxiety/fight flight etc. and C/PTSD has one of the strongest body/brain relationships (ie Body Keeps the Score). My imbalanced gut could be keeping my trauma alive. Well, it's probably more circular as the trauma also affects the vagus nerve and then the functioning of the gut and vice versa.

"When your microbiome is unbalanced from trauma it communicates that message of chaos back to our mind via the vagus nerve. It can become a harmful cycle of the embodied  sensation of danger, repeating messages between the brain and gut that the body needs to fight or flee even though safety is abundant."

https://flourishinaustin.com/news-notes/trauma-digestion-vagusnerve

"In line, there is preliminary evidence for gut bacteria to have beneficial effect on mood and anxiety, partly by affecting the activity of the vagus nerve."

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyt.2018.00044/full

"But 2016 experiments with mice at the Office of Naval Research, of all places, found that trauma seriously disrupts gut bacteria, killing off various varieties and making it less diverse. "The gut and bowels are a very complex ecology," the researchers said. "The less diversity, the greater disruption to the body." A lack of diversity of gut flora's been seen elsewhere, like in humans who've spent a lot of time in hospital, and it is very much not good news. However, the researchers also found something interesting: when they transplanted more diverse gut flora into the traumatized mice, the mice became much calmer and showed a lot less misery."

https://www.bustle.com/p/trauma-affects-your-digestive-health-in-very-real-ways-31764

I just wanted to share this as I didn't see any posts yet on the SIBO/CPTSD connection. Maybe it will help someone else with those unexplained health issues that doctors can't seem to pin down. I know how distressing it was to be told that there was nothing wrong and it was all in my head when I knew something wasn't right.

[Bach]

This is very interesting. I have similar issues as well as having had covid, and doctors are not interested. If it's not too personal, could you please tell me more about the PeptoBismol test and about what you're doing to address your SIBO? It would be much appreciated

Wishing you continued healing!

[dollyvee]

Thanks Bach 

I'll be doing a stool test to diagnose for sure with my functional medicine practitioner in a month but I read (can't find it now) that because there is no breath test for Hydrogen Sulfide SIBO (there are three) one way to diagnose is to drink Pepto bismal and see what happens to your poop. TMI - apparently, if it comes out black the next day after the PB, it is a sign of HS SIBO. I also found that I had big reactions (a lot of brain fog - like I went to another planet) to high sulfur foods like eggs and wine after I started taking some oregano oil which is used to treat SIBO. However, there are different treatments for the different kinds of SIBO and as I understand, nothing is one size fits all.

While I wait for my appointment, I'm taking some anti-microbials, oregano oil, and Pepto bismal for a week (it shouldn't be taken long term). Am also staying away from high sulfur foods. I'm sure she'll tell me it's all wrong but it's a bit of an experiment. Had some die-off reactions once I started the Pepto-bismal, so something must be working.

https://www.nutriadvanced.co.uk/candex-sibo-45-capsules.html

Just showing some links between Covid and gut health:
https://asm.org/Press-Releases/2021/January/Poor-Gut-Health-Connected-to-Severe-COVID-19,-New

I wish I would've followed up on my FMP's advice sooner to get a stool test and see what's going on in my gut.

[dollyvee]

Am also thinking that there is a viral component as well. Apparently, SIBO and Strep infections go hand in hand, which is very interesting as I had a very bad case of Strep Throat when I was about 11.

The connection between PANDAS, Strep and anxiety is also interesting and the way it can modify a child's behaviour.

If anyone is interested will report on FMP's diagnosis/thoughts after the appointment in Sept. Right now, these are my own research, thoughts and self-experiments.

[Kizzie]

Wowee is right! There is SO MUCH we need to know about what trauma does to us physically.  All those fight or flight chemicals flooding our system constantly take a bigger toll than has yet to be acknowledged except in small circles.

Tks for the info Dollyvee, so glad to hear you feel you're on track to figuring out what's been going on.  Would love to hear more as you go along 

[Armadillo]

Ow wow. Interesting. I had a bad case of SIBO before I started therapy. The Abx really didn't seem to help. A very very strict diet did help temporarily but as soon as I stopped it it all came back. Therapy actually seemed to be my magic bullet. Though I haven't had the tests redone to see if it is gone, I feel better. It flares up again under stress ibdont handle well. It was bad enough my primary care dr told me she thought I had MS after running every other autoimmune test. (Luckily MRI all clear)

[dollyvee]

Yes, it's a big question mark area that is only starting to be researched. It'll be great to find out for a lot of people that it's not all in their head. Will keep this updated for sure! I think it could be a definite co-factor to what's keeping my anxiety levels high.

That's interesting Armadillo - seems like it could definitely stress related. As I understand, SIBO is notoriously hard to get rid of. There are also three different kinds of SIBO which respond to different treatments. Maybe the treatment wasn't the right one?

[Armadillo]

Thanks DV. I had methane and hydrogen and 2 different types of Abx. Two rounds each. But I really did find most of my pain and weird neurological conditions improved after a few years of dealing with the mental health issues. Not saying it's all in our heads, but that dealing with the underlying issue that is causing the imbalances helped me at least with the symptom part of SIBO such that I don't need to follow the diet and feel mostly good now.

I've got my fingers majorly crossed that eventually I am healed of my hives I get in cold temperatures that ive had for 30 years.

[dollyvee]

That's interesting Armadillo, thanks for sharing. My suspicion rn is that the trauma/stress (and likely existing strep infection) triggered my gut dysbiosis which has run amok now for decades. Hopefully, by putting my digestion back in order it will relieve some of my anxiety/CPTSD symptoms which don't seem to be helped with therapy. This looks like the feedback loop in action.

Hope treating your SIBO has helped your hives 

[dollyvee]

ah I just lost my response 

So, I thought I'd post an update on this. I was taking anti-microbials and peptobismal and developed a body rash which the medic at work told me was urticaria. This is the body's response to poision in the system where it tries to get the toxins out through the pores. I wasn't ODing on what I was taking etc, it was just whatever had been in my system had been festering for a long time. When I spoke with my functional medicine practitioner she was on board with what I was taking and didn't raise any concerns. I continued on the low sulfur diet, anti-microbials, and went back to the TCM doctor who told me ages ago that there was still something wrong with my stomach. Also, interestingly TCM sees a link between SIBO and strep but more on that after.

I've learned that too much H2S SIBO can produce issues with weight as it basically shuts down your metabolism. H2S is needed in the mitochondria for cellular signalling but too much effectively makes the it inert, which is like shutting down your metabolism. Over time SIBO also has effects on hormone levels in women and men, and is linked to PCOS in women and testosterone deficiency (?) in men. There's also a direct link to anxiety and depression. So, the whole idea of "a calorie in, a calorie out" is not essentially true.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2213231720309770

https://journals.lww.com/ajg/Fulltext/2017/10001/Evaluation_of_Rate_of_Depression_and_Anxiety_in.451.aspx

https://journals.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/ajpendo.00279.2017

I got my stool test back from the FMP and there was an overgrowth of strep. It's interesting that this is classified as "good" gut bacteria. My FMP believes that it might be an underlying mold issue, I am holding out for strep. My dad had mild OCD and this stuck out as a symptom from the article I read about PANDAS. Out of curiosity, I asked my aunt if she ever remembered him having strep throat and she said she's not sure but she remembered always having a sore throat growing up. As it's very contagious, it's likely to that all the kids had it. She also has psoriasis and there is a causal link between strep and skin disorders. What if these infections we get as kids are not effectively treated with antibiotics and are passed on? Or maybe we have different genetic factors that influence how viruses affect us? Things that might represent as PANDAS symptoms in children, will be then treated as psychiatric disorders in adults when they are viral or related to the body.

I had an episode of being very focused on what I ate when I was younger. It could have been any combination of things - puberty & being more pressured about body image, sf comments about body image being forced to exercise before I went to live with my dad. I did have a serious strep infection growing up but can't remember if it was around the calorie counting/body focused time unfortunately. I've been taking neem, acupuncture and the TCM herbs and it's helped the strep side of things (excessive thirst etc).

https://jmg.bmj.com/content/39/10/767

https://www.acupuncturetoday.com/digital/index.php?i=736&a_id=33664&pn=37&r=t&Page=37

I'm still in the process of doing some more tests and healing my gut but I think overall it's helping. I guess it's subjective but I think I do feel more settled and less anxious about things in general.

[Kizzie]

I just figured out recently I may have IBS and now I'm wondering if it might be SIBO.  Tks again for all this info and sharing Dolly.  It didn't resonate with me in June but it does now so I'll be digging in.  I did adopt a low FODMAPS diet after reading about IBS and that seems to be helping a lot but there may be more to this than I thought.

CPTSD, the 'gift' that keeps on giving sigh. I hope I'm still around to see the day when physicians offer much better evidence based info about weight/eating issues than merely suggesting we eat better, control ourselves, blah, blah, blah.   

[dollyvee]

I don't think a lot of doctors/therapists are making the connection and it's an important one. For me it helped me with, "I'm doing something wrong, it must be me." The good news is that once steps are taken to deal with it, it can have a positive effect, but it might take time to find the right treatment which might take a few rounds. Most ppl's default is it's the person's fault that they're like that. I had a man tell me once at the gym that I was drinking too much because of my belly or a doctor lecture me about how to track my calories better. I've struggled with it for so long and hopefully it helps someone else.

From what I've read, there can be a link between SIBO and IBS. One thing mentioned that if you have IBS, you most likely have SIBO too. There are three kinds of SIBO - hydrogen, methane, and H2S. Most ppl have a combination. There's a trio breath test but don't think it's everywhere. I would make sure ppl test you for H2S as well. A GI ma is great as it can rule out parasites, H2S producing bacteria, etc like h pylori. (I had this and the docs never made the connection that a byproduct of h pylori is H2S). The other thing would be to eat for your SIBO type as they will respond differently to Low FODMAP, high FODMAP, and no sulfur. It's good that the low FODMAP is working for you. I can't remember off the top of my head which SIBO this relates to but might be a clue.

The r/SIBO forum has some good info once you get past a lot of the "what does this symptom mean" posts.

[Kizzie]

Thanks again for the info, I will look into all of it. 

I have to admit I find myself frustrated sometimes that I have had to become a scientist and researcher, just saying. I recently had a chat with my son who is first year medicine about how trauma impacts both physical and mental health and that physicians needed to look into the trauma history of patients. He said something about it being two separate fields; common understanding by not only those in medicine but also in mental health.  I've never had a doctor take a trauma history or a T take a physical history. It's astounding given the 1990's ACEs study and other research into the impact of trauma on both mind and body.

Rant over 

[dollyvee]

Rant away - I get it. It's taken me 10 years to put all this together after going to doctor after doctor. I made the mistake of asking for anti-depressants once because I thought that might be it, but it only gave them an excuse to tell me it's all in my head. I'm aware of ACEs and it is really disheartening to hear it's not being taught. It makes me think of Bessel Van der Kolk and despite all the evidence he had showing the implications of trauma, they still didn't alter the DSM-V to reflect the effects of trauma. Unfortunately, we live in a culture of blame. If it helps someone else make then connection then that's great.

[Kizzie]

Just curious if you take a probiotic Dolly?