Eight Years

[dollyvee]

Hi Phoebes,

I had a reply to your post before but I think it disappeared with the server transition. I read part of your post so far and it made me angry for you what your mom said to you about the abuse and her behaviour afterwards. I'm really sorry that happened to you. That would have been typical narcissist "crazy-making" behaviour if it was me.

Glad you're able to process some things this way.

Sending you support,
dolly

[Phoebes]

Thank you for taking the time to read and respond, dolly! I can feel that you care, and I am sorry that you can relate as well. It feels validating that you take away the same interpretation as I do. I truly appreciate the support. 

[dollyvee]

Yes I can relate to trying to unravel the years of mind bending behaviours, guilt, "I love you," etc. I'm not sure how much you have done or read, but something I found helpful this past year was Will I Ever Be Good Enough? for daughters growing up with narcissistic mothers (I think you mentioned your mom is NPD). It talks about projection and the grieving process that comes with not having a secure mother. 

[Phoebes]

Thank you, Dolly. I will check that out. I have heard of it and read similar sounding stuff. I didn't originally intend to unearth the seemingly endless layers, levels and incidences of abuse.  But, in becoming conscious of what happened and all things related, I think it's more becoming aware that many things I accepted as normal were in fact abuse. My reality was very warped, and it's strange how long into adulthood it went, and strange how I still seem to wish for something that is unlikely. That I could be around my mom, however minimally. Why would I do that. I guess to relieve the stress of being close to my sister and her kids, and them living near and being involved with my mom. Also, in the few years I met and got to know her latest husband and family, I really liked him and them. I know he does not have a clue and was. Dry mad at me at first, but he has since been kind and tries to invite and include me. Sometimes it feels flying monkey ish but I think he just wants to be a peace maker. I hate that this had to effect my only "normal" parental type relationship.

[dollyvee]

But, in becoming conscious of what happened and all things related, I think it's more becoming aware that many things I accepted as normal were in fact abuse. My reality was very warped, and it's strange how long into adulthood it went, and strange how I still seem to wish for something that is unlikely.

I don't think it's strange and I will bet it's a similar experience for a lot of people on the forum. I think it's the precise reason, that you were taught to not think of it as abuse and how it was normalized in the family, that allowed it to continue for so long. Growing up as kids, this was the only reality that a lot of us knew and I think it takes a long time to learn that there is another world out there. Narc abuse can also be so tricky to bring to light as well. Being gaslit really takes your perception of reality for a spin.

I was doing a lot of work on myself for and was NC with my m for three years when she died in 2019. The feeling of wanting to reconnect and have that "mom" never went away until she died. It was like some part of me just didn't understand that that wasn't going to happen. I hadn't worked on it with EMDR, but that longing is our first longing and need for survival, and I think it's a pretty tough one to shift. I think it's understandable that you feel that way.

That also sounds like a tricky situation with your sf. Maybe he is a non-PD person that has been trapped by a narc and has genuine feelings towards you. My hesitation would be that your m is never going to see your reality or acknowledge your side of things, so could there ever really be peace there?  To me, that would require some give and take from both sides, an equal footing. I guess it's how much can you protect yourself to get the good side of the interactions with people who aren't your m? I'm guessing that you were the scapegoat in the family and you will be the one everything falls on while everyone else just "gets on with it," which is not fair to you. I could be projecting here as this was pretty much my experience. Everyone was a "happy family unit" except for when I came along and started wanting to be heard, or be an actual person and then I just felt like I was being difficult etc, that there was something wrong with me.

Sending you support 

[Phoebes]

Thank you for the support and validation dolly. I'm sorry for the loss of your mom fairly recently. I often wonder what that will be like for me and if I will have wished I would have given it a chance once the chance is gone,,I struggle a lot with this as you can tell. I think she thinks she has "apologized". She has given me manipulative apologies only from the end of the last conversation we had (the meanest kind of fake apology), and then in sending a few notes and texts before I blocked her for sending false apologies. But I do think she is so high on the N spectrum that she does think she has done her part and it is now me that is being "unforgiving". Seeing that for what it is and in reality makes me feel like I could handle being around her. I sound like a crazy person lol. Christmas was just hard I guess. I saw her from a distance in a store. I don't think she saw me there but she looked very old, frail, hunched over. She has said in her communication that the only thing that matters to her is that we reconcile. I think her husband is supportive of her and only sees that side. There's no way he sees the horrific side that may or may not still come out. I'm sure it exists .

You are certainly correct that I am the scapegoat, and as long as everyone keeps their mouth shut and keeps the peace, puts on a smile and acts like everything is fine, and especially for me to go along with the covert abuse that has taken place through adulthood. That is my place in the family. A lifetime of therapy has never helped. They just recommend that I stand up to her and say how I feel. That just gets my scapegoat role reinforced. It's been eight years no contact for me so I don't know if it would be different in terms of she just doesn't have the energy to be so mean anymore. She's lived her whole life not able to be herself, not happy, under the veil of consciousness and family trauma passed on to her. It's sad And I do feel like if she were more aware she would have been able to love me. I don't know why I'm saying all this now but I guess it's part of the questioning whether I should say some thing and if so what lol

[dollyvee]

Hey Phoebes,

It is a struggle. My second t told me basically that it's a sign that my heart works and that I made it through with empathy. In Will I Ever Be Good Enough, she sets it up how to prepare yourself to be in contact with the parent. I was NC with my m but LC with my grandmother (also on NPD scale) but I was working on that. It would throw me right back into old patterns and ways of thinking when I spoke to her. So, to me, contact is relative to how you're able to preserve your space for you internally. I don't think I was healed speaking with my gm. There was still the part that longed for the "family" and the ideal parent, for them to see me, so that it wasn't my fault etc. I think the grief process that she talks about in the book and really grieving those things and letting them go didn't happen for me until they physically died. Maybe if I would have focused on it more in EMDR, I would have been able to have better contact with my gm, I don't know. But they were never going to change, it's only my response to them (and I guess what drove my intention behind that response) that would change.

I get that it breaks your heart. There's nothing more than you probably want than to take care of her and help her. I did the same with my m and she continued her self destructive ways until she had an aneurysm. When she passed away, I was out walking and it came to me that that was her time on earth to do the things she needed to do. It's just who she was. I guess I'm using all that energy that I wanted to pour into those relationships to pour into me now and heal what happened. When I write it down it sounds selfish, but I'm learning that there is a thing as healthy selfishness, putting on your mask first and all that. It is lonely without the "family," but I can see now how unhealthy that side was and I have family on my dad's side that's more stable that I can talk to. These are just my experiences and thought they might resonate, so please take if it fits and don't if not, but just writing because I get that struggle.

I'm sorry that your therapist recommended that to you. That's something you should never do to a narcissist as I understand. Maybe grey rock, setting boundaries but telling someone your feelings to someone who lacks empathy seems like it's only going to hurt you in the process. Dr. Ramani has some youtibe videos about dealing with them. Perhaps a different therapist or therapy might help? I've been doing EMDR with a trauma therapist that has been very good for creating space from those difficult feelings in the beginning.

Sending you support 
dolly

[Phoebes]

Dolly, it's so interesting you bring up your gm in your response. I have been thinking of my mom's mom lately. She passed away a few months after my mom and I went NC. I did go to the small funeral. She and my grandpa were clearly the purveyors of at least that side's generational trauma of which they both had a lot. I wasn't close to her growing up although I wanted to be.children were to be seen from afar and not heard.  In adulthood I remained distant except for holidays. My gm struggled to be loving. She could be abusive. She is the one who said she would disown me and that my mother was going to k*ll herself for my lack of keeping up with the family laundry. She also was the best cook on planet earth. She was a fisher woman. She made everything from scratch and it was divine. I wanted to learn to cook like her and it would've been such a nice opportunity to be like all the women close and learning to cook from the grandmother and mother being a wonderfully enjoyable part of the holidays. But my grandmother would not even teach my mother and all of us were not allowed in the kitchen. She had to control everything and the outcome and it had to be perfect. I understand now. I fight my perfectionism and try to do things as a practice in imperfection. It's very stifling to be perfectionist.

Anyway, I strangely found myself missing her more than I thought I would after she passed away. There were good things about her too. Before she died when she had dementia and didn't recognize anyone, she had a moment of clarity with me and looked right into my eyes and said the biggest mistake I made was trying to be too perfect. And then went back to being glazed over.

She spent her entire life from age 15 taking care of her husband. My grandpa was 26 when they married. After 55 years of marriage, she married her sisters husband. I guess I was thinking of my grandmother as my mother and as me if that makes sense. I have a lot of struggles and deep heartache from missing having a tribe where I felt included and loved. My mother has that too but has also spent her whole life enmeshed with another and not doing any sort of self reflection or seeking.

Anyway I guess maybe my mind is opening up to some deeper insights. A video popped up in my YouTube feed about the hollows. I don't know why, I hadn't mentioned it. But my grandpa grew up like that in a family of 13 kids, and my grandmother similarly in Missouri. They both were very poor and uneducated. That was only one generation ago really. My grandmothers measure of a good man was that he didn't beat her. My grandfather who molested me not a bad man, he had good qualities and I loved him. He was just so inappropriate and cross the line a few times seeing what he could get away with. I've never delved too deeply into his world. I mostly tried to avoid him. He was a wonderful musician self-taught.

Anyway I'm sorry I am rambling too much. I guess I am putting the pieces together in a slightly different way and I have been feeling more empathy for my mother. Its hard to bear that she projects all of her pain on to me and does not see me. I don't want to be in the presence of that again but I do understand her deep sense of unworthiness. I have it she has it worse. Her mom had it worse her dad had it as well. Will never know what my kid has cause I don't have one! I've been wondering with the healing that I've been doing for eight years if I could hold onto my self and maintain objectivity if I was faced with her gaslighting, dog whistling, or general disdain for me. She seems different but I have to wonder if it's only in the presence of her husband since she has to pretend. I know I can't control that so I guess for myself I'm wondering should I try this so that I can learn to hold onto myself. I don't know how I will know any other way.

I have not seen a therapist in a long time. I feel like reading and watching people like Dr. Ramani, Bessel van der Kolk, Gabor mate, and other therapist who understand on YouTube is more helpful to me. I do my own tapping and EMDR-ish activity sometimes which I think has helped! And much less disregulated and can get back to regulated pretty quick. I just feel like this question about my mom is the last thing really holding me back in life it's hard for me to move forward with this hanging over me. When I see people moving forward despite no contact I wonder why it's so hard for me. Thank you Dolly for your support. 

[dollyvee]

Hey Phoebes,

I get that, it's a tough one to tease apart. Thank you for sharing some of your family history too it's interesting for me to hear and it's a rich description. Generational trauma is a big factor on that side of my family as well (my dad's too but they're more stable). After reading It Doesn't Start With You, I traced back the family line and my mother, grandmother and great-grandmother (as far as I could go) were all born in some sort of war, revolution or upheaval. It definitely doesn't make for secure relating.

I'm sorry that your gf was like that and that no one ever addressed it. Sometimes I get the same feeling with my own gf and some of the things he said. While I could never class it as "abuse," I had to chalk it up to different time, different ways of acting. It sucks because I think it's a lot more frequent in that generation of men and no one talks about it really (I feel), or you get painted as difficult etc if you put a defence up.

I was talking with my aunt last Christmas and mentioned something about the alcoholism (on my dad's side) and my grandmother. She said that times were tough back then, as a way to kind of excuse the behaviour. I had to say yes, but it doesn't mean that how she treated people, or did the things she did was ok. The other three siblings managed to be pretty straight and narrow with one other kind of wild card. For me, I think I made a lot of excuses and put a lot of myself aside because of the things my grandparents had been through. I had it miles better than they did so how could I say anything. (I think this is a generational thing). I read someone's letter to his father on Out of The Fog about how could he take away his right to be heard as a child just because he was a holocaust survivor, that it wasn't fair how careful they had to be around him, and it clicked that it was the same for me too. Just because someone has been through so much doesn't make that kind of narcissism ok but I think there is a process of understanding it.

It took a while for me to find the right therapist and my experience has been pretty good. I find that relationship and being able to provide feedback to eachother is something I really needed. It sucks to have to have gone through several though to get to where I needed but I guess that's the learning process. I'm glad you found something that works for you.

Sending you support as you figure it all out 
dolly

[Phoebes]

Thank you, Dolly. I appreciate your support and sharing as well. I can definitely relate to your experience in being in a family system where I wasn't allowed my own experience.