Extreme self-doubt

[Bermuda]

I don’t know where to put this, or even what “this” is. I have mentioned it briefly before, so I guess I am looking to put a name to it, so I can address it properly.

How do I know if something is real? How do I know if I am feeling physical pain? How do I know if someone is making me feel sad in the present or if it’s just me, like a ghost feeling? Can people make me feel sad, or not because no one is responsible for my feelings but me? I would never be able to answer the question, “What is your pain on a level from 1-10?” I mean, it would always be a one. I have a great imagination.

When I feel sad I go through these thoughts where I question if I am really sad because someone is mistreating me and question if I should be sad, or if I am relating that feeling to something I’ve felt before. Like a mild trigger. I don’t want to be taken advantage of, but maybe it’s me and there is no actual problem. If there is no problem than I should not mention my feelings, because they’re not real.

I never hear about people who haven’t experienced trauma talking about having such a severe level of “self doubt”. Although, in my opinion it goes so much further than mere self doubt.

I am also very impressionable. There have been times I was very very ill, but a doctor said I was fine, so I dropped it. I just stopped talking about it as if it would go away, until the problem resolved and I realised it had indeed been a problem. This sort of thing has happened more times than once. If someone tells me I am remembering something wrong, I am inclined to believe them, even if I was pretty sure they were lying. I’m probably wrong.

I cannot answer the question “How are you?” honestly. If I am sitting in a room with people who all say they are hot than I am probably not actually cold, etc.

Anyway, is there a name to this symptom?

[Armee]

I don't know if there's a name but yes this is what i experience too. It's why I dissociate if I'm asked a question and especially a question asking me to rate an experience or feeling on a scale. Well how would I know? Unfortunately that type of rating is often used in mental health treatment and EMDR. Luckily my T has learned that asking me this question is simply a sure way to lose me for about 45 minutes. No wisdom here but you sure aren't alone.

[OwnSide]

How do I know if something is real?

Oh wow, this feels like something out of my own brain.

When I go on these thought spirals, I call it gaslighting. Because at least part of me knows how I feel. My body gives me muscle tension consistent with anxiety, or lethargy consistent with depression. It's the other parts -- the parts that say that I'm functioning well enough, that logically I don't have much to complain about, that other people go through worse -- that keep me going around in circles.

I think sometimes I numb out too, and then when I encounter a trigger I feel a   -  space  -  where my emotional reaction would normally be. Which is uncomfortable in its own way, but "doesn't feel that bad", and I end up doubting the times I reacted more strongly.

Bermuda, I believe I understood you say that you shouldn't mention your feelings if they are triggers because that makes them "not real". But I think those feelings matter just as much. If I were accidentally triggering somebody, I would want to know so I could approach them differently, even if my approach wasn't necessarily "wrong" before. (That said, I still don't tell people when they trigger me. It's easier to rationalize than to put into practice.)

Anyway, thank you for posting about this because it is very very relevant to what I have been struggling with lately. I am just realizing how important trauma-informed environments (including this one) are in helping me hold onto myself. I wish you both the best in finding your way to a place of self-belief 

[rainydiary]

Bermuda, I don't have any original to add but wanted to add "me too" here.

[NarcKiddo]

I hear you and I am familiar with these issues.

In terms of "how are you?" I simply don't answer truthfully. I am always "fine" unless it is obvious I have a cold or a broken leg in which case I am prepared to admit to same. Emotionally I am always "fine". I actually hate people asking how I am because my default assumption is that they have some kind of nefarious motive for asking.

I have, with the help of my therapist, started thinking to myself about how I actually am, and journalling about it. I tell her how I am as far as I feel able. I have a deep breathing app which has sliders for me to rate my mood, stress, anxiety, anger, tiredness and energy levels. I could just leave them at neutral, of course, but I do use them. At the beginning it was a bit hit and miss to say the least, but over time I have been able to get some sort of feel for where I am in relation to last time I used the app, so I am now getting reasonably valuable feedback over time.

[Kizzie]

I think "self-doubt" about covers it Bermuda, maybe also lack of self-confidence?   One that I've used but it's not particularly descriptive/clear is "other referenced" and "self referenced".  We (survivors) tend to be other referenced because in order to survive we always had to be on guard and watch out for potential abuse so we focused outward on others and lost track of ourselves.  Non-survivors are typically "self-referenced" because they didn't need to be on guard all the time and so they know how they are feeling, what they think/believe, etc.   

I agree with Narckiddo about the benefits of working on being more self-aware (e.g., What do/don't I like?  What do I think about XX? Etc). It can help us become more self-referenced with a bit of time and patience.

Hope this is helpful 

[Bermuda]

Wow, so much to reply to. It makes me feel cared about and listened to, understood. That might sound silly, but yeah.

Armee, Rainydiary, thank you.

Ownside:
"But I think those feelings matter just as much. If I were accidentally triggering somebody, I would want to know so I could approach them differently, even if my approach wasn't necessarily "wrong" before."

You are absolutely right. I would also want to know. It is hard to explain to people that you are not blaming them, and that it isn't their fault. In a way it would feel like then I am saying that it is my fault that I feel... Which it isn't either. I know what you mean that it is easier in theory than in practice. In any case, you are right. Those feelings are valid no matter their origin, or even if I can cannot place an origin.

NarcKiddo: I don't feel that I am in a place that I can even evaluate myself. I think your idea about journaling is really good. I think if I approached it like tracking my menstrual cycle with just simple short facts that I could see patterns over time. Then I could look at how I feel as it is relative to how I felt yesterday for example. It seems a lot more concrete. Such a strange thing to say, I know. I have to gain perspective on my own state of being.

Kizzie: I really like your wording, and it makes perfect sense to me. I am not self-referenced, just as I am not emotionally self-reliant either. It's hard when people see CPTSD as being self-indulgent or self-absorbed when it is so so so not that at all, and in a way trying to not be that stereotype has exasterated this machine of destruction of self. Your use of the word self-aware is really interesting to me. I have read a lot about trauma survivors and their lack of self-awareness and always thought that didn't apply to me. I thought that because I have only ever heard that term in the sense of being aware of your own flaws, behaviour, reactions and such, which I am hyper aware of. I am extremely self-critical... But what I failed to realise until now is that my self-critic is so strong that it impedes my normal ability to have self-awareness in the way others do. Kind of a huzzah moment for me. WIth all the awareness that my brain is constantly aware of, I do infact lack self-awareness. I want to laugh and cry.

I don't know if I am cold because I don't know if it's okay to be cold, or if that's even an option. I look to others to feel.

Often with CPTSD I get reminded of this quote about watching life through a microscope and completely missing the big picture going on around you. There's a song by Ben Folds called Still Reprise, if anyone is interested in mediocre music that has relateable lyrics.

[Kizzie]

The other thing I thought of that might resonate Bermuda is that not being self-aware is a way of being invisible and that protects us from further abuse in a way.  That is, if we look to others for how to be, what to think, etc., we don't risk our true selves.  Does that make sense? 

And what you said about being critical of yourself, I am very much that way too and my take on being so is that if I criticize myself first no-one else gets to me to hurt me.  Again, don't know if that makes sense but so much about what we do to protect ourselves/survive is kind of twisted up. 

[Bermuda]

It's so strange to read this over again and really let it sink in that as I reflect on myself, my ability to self-regulate, my self-awareness, all of that, I relate it outwardly. I relate to myself as an outsider could interpret me. Is that not the strangest revelation? 

I did spend most of my life perfecting invisibility, and I still do to a lesser extent. I think often of the struggle I've had to learn to exist in the world, but never actually from an inside perspective. The real struggle is learning to simply be and not to do.

[Kizzie]

as I reflect on myself, my ability to self-regulate, my self-awareness, all of that, I relate it outwardly. I relate to myself as an outsider could interpret me. Is that not the strangest revelation?

I hear you Bermuda and I can relate as I'm sure lots of others here can.  Another thing that came to mind (sorry if I'm offering up too much) is our ability to dissociate which is a way of making ourselves invisible to ourselves when you think about it.  We don't connect with our pain and fear if we "go away" from ourselves. I've also heard it called depersonalization which is literally feeling like you're looking at yourself from the outside. 

All these strategies help us stay safe and are quite ingenious/creative really. I just read an article yesterday that proposed mental health/medicine must shift its approach and  work with us to emphasize and restore dignity and I couldn't agree more that how we survived is deserving of a big rethink. 

[Bermuda]

I don’t believe there is such thing as too much information. I am open to all of the possible insight there is, even the things that seemingly don’t fit like, “Trauma survivors lack self-awareness” because maybe things that don’t click now may click in the future. It’s a whole lifetime of tangled necklaces to unravel.

Dissociation, derealisation and depersonalisation are very familiar to me. I always thought of those times as isolated occurrences and nothing that effected my overall relationship to myself. I am beginning to think that it’s not momentary and rather that those of us who are prone to coping in this way may already be somehow detached to our nervous systems and predispositioned to depersonalisation as a coping mechanism. This is just a theory, but maybe my brain formed in such a way without healthy attachment, I didn’t learn to self-regulate, and thus as I experienced subsequent moments of intense trauma I was already primed for this reaction.

So now, years later I am sitting here wondering how I feel and am just beginning to see that I have had a whole lifetime of derealisation, and rather momentary extreme dissociative episodes.

CPTSD is super.*

I have read some newer research on recalling traumatic memories from third person perspective which is also fascinating, and loosely relevant.

I wasn’t actually looking down at the room from the ceiling, which begs the questions… Where was I actually in the room? What was MY experience or involvement? What was I feeling? Was I in pain?

…Questions that are both relevant in and outside of traumatic situations.

*Denotes sarcasm

[Kizzie]

 

[dollyvee]

Hey Bermuda,

I think I know exactly what you're referring to. We weren't allowed to have a personality growing up and we're arrested at a certain developmental stage. For me, I constantly looked to other people for an opinion as I didn't trust my own. It was only after working with a good t for a number of years that I began to pull myself out of it but I remember being 20 and there was just nothing inside. I had no idea how I felt, no nothing.

"So now, years later I am sitting here wondering how I feel and am just beginning to see that I have had a whole lifetime of derealisation, and rather momentary extreme dissociative episodes."

I think it might be closer to this IMO, that those parts of you that were supposed to differentiate and develop (as "normal" kids) never had the chance because it caused fear/issues for your caregiver and you then learned that it was safer to not do those things. John Bradshaw goes into the developmental stages a bit in Healing The Shame That Binds You.

Sending you support 
Dolly

[Moondance]

Wow I struggle with this all the time so this thread was really good for me to read.  Sad that we all had the experiences to get us feeling and coping/not coping this way but so very thankful of how affirming and helpful this thread is. 

I will be reading it again and again. 

[Bermuda]

Oh Moondance, it's a lot, and as I have reread over this, it's just so apparent how all the things that I waffle on about are so interconnected. This may be the same issue I have been on about recently but merely a different facet.

It's the same isn't it? I can't face people in public. I feel confused and sad when confronted. I don't have anger or defensiveness as a response, because I don't know that's an option. I'm searching for who I'm supposed to be.


It's exactly the same.

It is unfortunate that we often share these common problems, but something about the commonality is reassuring. It assures me it's real, so it allows me to feel, because clearly I need that.