(Lack of) Forgiveness

[GoSlash27]

 I'm so glad I'm not alone on this one. If my healing depended on forgiving my mother for all the terrible things that she did, then I'd have to accept the reality that I will just never be healed.
 
 What she did was simply unforgivable.
 
She's dead and gone. I do not miss her. I didn't attend her funeral.

 My sister did, and she got the ashes. As soon as she got home, she chucked them in the trash and said "She can go haunt a landfill". I applauded her for it. 

-Slashy

[Kizzie]

Nope no reason to forgive IMO.  I feel like I would be doing younger me a complete bad if I did somehow.  I do understand that my parents went through a lot of trauma of their own but that does not mean they get to pass it on. At the very least each of us has to do our best to break the cycle.

[NarcKiddo]

Note to self - avoid landfills. 

I agree there is no reason to forgive if you don't want to, or can't. I think that finding a way to deal with the feelings that surround these people so that the feelings stop being corrosive to us is a good thing. But that need not involve forgiveness as far as I am concerned.

I felt very encouraged once, when I was talking to a guy who had done a program which suggested he should forgive his abusers. He thought he had, and then later he realised they did not deserve forgiveness and he did not actually forgive them. So in his mind he un-forgave them all. I really loved that he un-forgave them.

[woodsgnome]

I was in the same quandary. For years, I read and heard umpteen self-help lectures about the so-called dire need for the grand glorified act called forgiveness.

I finally found lots of useful counter views (including from my current T) and knew my heart's rawness was drawn to something else -- forgiveness for myself seemed more useful for my healing journey! For all the years I absorbed so much guilt thinking I must somehow have been at fault.

I guess it 'sounds' great to always forgive others, but as Kizzie mentioned, even if there's some precedent for the abysmal behaviour of others, passing it on kind of defeats the whole notion of living humanely. That some still choose to live dishonourably doesn't seem fitting to lead to forgiveness by the victims. And no, that's not 'woundology' as one noted self-help author has called it (makes for a great blame-the-victim sermon on her part).

I've found ways to accept (it's called history) but never condone what happened. This doesn't require any grand action to forget or tolerate any of it. Un-burdening myself of the whole guilt business is actually harder than falling in line at the you-must-forgive booth.

Better stop before I get carried away -- I'm just grateful I've landed -- safely -- with others here who dare to question the cultural norm proclaimin 'you must forgive'. Huh? 

[Little2Nothing]

For me forgiveness didn't condone or negate the past it only freed me from my anger at, and my fear of the perpetrator.

What my tormentors did to me can never be erased and will always be with me. 

When my step-dad apologized to me I had two choices. I could have rejected him completely and continued to harm myself with anger, or accept his apology and set myself free from continuing self destruction,.

My anger didn't affect him, he could have cared less and would have never lost sleep over it. But, my anger towards him was toxic to me. It kept me stuck. After he apologized I saw him differently. This does not mean that the affliction he put me through were magically gone, nor was the torment of the memories or the adverse affects of it. The memories still haunt me, the acts of brutality and the viciousness of his anger are still painful memories.

My mom, on the other hand, considered herself without guilt. She claimed herself a "righteous woman." Her lack of contrition makes it difficult to have the same feeling for her.

I'm not sure that the term forgiveness actually applies as most view it.  From my perspective the slate wasn't wiped clean. I did not allow him back in my life. Our relationship after was cordial, but never close.

What benefitted me was being able to show him compassion after what I perceived as a sincere apology. At that moment I saw him as a damaged man with his own profound shattered past. I was able to give to him what he could never give to me. And knowing that I was not like he had been was profoundly healing. I learned that I was not like him. That I would never be like him. 

When I offered my forgiveness in essence I set myself free. I could remember with pain, but not with the vitriolic anger I previously had toward him. The fallout from his actions still affect me to this day. I hate the things he did. I despise the darkness he brought. I lament a tortured youth and the baggage I have to carry. But, I can honestly say, I do not hate the man, nor do I love him. He is just another broken man in a broken world.

[GoSlash27]

L2N,
 Yeah, this resonates with me very strongly. I had to concede that at the end my mom's boyfriend did change and he was no longer violent. He didn't understand why he was like that or why he changed.
 So while I never forgave him for the things he did, I did eventually come to trust and even love him in the end. He just didn't have good control of his impulses and somehow developed it later in life.
 But my mother... She never did change. She was very cruel and calculating about how she abused us. All of it was very intentional. And she's dead now, so it's too late for that now.

 Thanks for your response,
-Slashy

[John]

My parents wanted to "force" me to forgive them. Under the notion that forgiveness is the right thing to do, the good thing to do. Its good for them, not for me. I also will not apologise a liftetime of intentional abuse. They knew what they were doing and did it anyway. I have not seen my parents in 10 years. I stoped all contact with them. They are not part of my life. I dont want anything from them. What i am fighting with is their afterimage and the horrible things they installed in me. I agree with the person that said "i need forgiveness for myself" For me that is the hardest thing to do.

[Desert Flower]

Hi John, what I found very helpful is what Pete Walker wrote about forgiveness (beginning with the self, and) it being a by-product of effective grieving. Grieving for everything we missed in our youth. I wouldn't know because I haven't even started grieving at all yet, but the idea sounds healthy to me. Needless to say, forcing forgiveness would only help us deny our traumas and thus not be helpful at all.

[Papa Coco]

John,

I understand you. Forgiveness is something we do for ourselves, but we can't just forgive someone as easily as that. I went full No Contact with my entire family 14 years ago and I'm still feeling brief moments of forgiveness between hours of resentment. I think I'm learning that, for me, forgiveness isn't an on-off switch, but more of a slow acceptance. Ultimately, for me, forgiveness is the synonym for acceptance. Accepting what they did as just my lot in life. And NO>>>It's NOT easy. Nor is it something that turns on like a switch. I have moments of acceptance surrounded by hours of resistance. But as I age, and as I work at finding acceptance for who I am and how I got where I am today, I'm finding a bit longer moments of acceptance surrounded by shorter hours of resistance.

I'm learning to strive for progress, rather than perfection. The on-off switch doesn't exist. We're on a spectrum, and, for me, the goal is to be better today than I was yesterday.

Being unable to forgive is like drinking poison, hoping it will hurt the person we can't forgive. Again: That doesn't mean it's easy to do, nor does it mean we HAVE to forgive. Nor is forgiveness something that happens all at once. TRUE forgiveness takes time, and moves into our lives slowly. In steps. There is nothing to be ashamed of by struggling to forgive. What was done to us against our will has lifelong implications. We are allowed to be angry at what was done to us. I still feel it. I'm starting to feel it less, but after 14 years, any improvement is improvement. A little bit of forgiveness is better than no forgiveness at all. The less I think about my FOO, the less poison I drink wishing it was hurting them instead of me.

As for me, I'm happy to have moved a few degrees into forgiveness, but I'm not ashamed of my inability to forgive completely. What they did, they would still be doing if I was within their reach. They were a family of fear and hatred and judgment and if I hadn't walked away when I did, they'd have killed me by now. So I am not ashamed of my struggle to forgive them. I'm glad when I get another notch closer to forgiveness, but I'm not pushing it. I'm letting it happen organically. As I distance myself from them, and as I grow my toolkit for better dealing with a life of fear and shame, the FOO is fading out of my conscious day. As I slowly forget about them, acceptance grows a bit more each day. Maybe I'll reach full forgiveness before I die. Maybe I won't. No matter which, I am not ashamed of my anger at them.

[AphoticAtramentous]

My sister did, and she got the ashes. As soon as she got home, she chucked them in the trash and said "She can go haunt a landfill". I applauded her for it. 

I love this to be honest. I probably wouldn't condone it but I can certainly understand the anger and pain behind such an action.

My parents wanted to "force" me to forgive them. Under the notion that forgiveness is the right thing to do, the good thing to do. Its good for them, not for me. I also will not apologise a liftetime of intentional abuse.

I have a similar situation. My parents would often apologise and demand my forgiveness. If I didn't forgive them, they'd hurt me. But even if I "forgave" them, they'd still continue to hurt me. So I never believed that they were being sincere, they only seemed to apologise in order to pretend like everything is okay - at least for that moment. Without their forced influence, I myself have chosen not to forgive my parents. To me it is a symbol of my independence, to retain my sense of autonomy - and a vow that I will no longer be forced to appease them. I don't hate them, nor do I seek revenge. But to me, my lack of forgiveness is a power. To forgive them would be a betrayal on my past self, and a resignation of my independence - not in a literal way but a symbolic way.
I realise not everyone appreciates this stance but I have deep issues with being forced to forgive.

Regards,
Aphotic.

[Phoebes]

This has been a difficult subject for me to wrap my head around throughout this journey.

It occurs to me that I was taught God wants me to "forgive and forget," by the ones inflicting abuse on me and the ones enabling the abuse. We didn't even go to church and I didn't have a broader picture of my parents brand of religion at the time. It's just all I knew- what they did and told me in the home.

This whole mixture of distorted religion and forgiveness "no matter what" really messed with my mind for many years. Most of my life I felt chronically guilty over feeling upset about how I was treated. Told I was too sensitive, get over it, forgive and move on (by my primary abuser!) when it wasn't being directly said, it was implied by them acting like nothing happened, no big deal, nothing to see here.


Learning about CPTSD and going no contact, it was completely mind blowing to realize that this was a preemptive plan to make me forgive them no matter what. It was part of the plan. I can't fathom raging at and beating my kid, or twisting crazy accusations at them, and then telling them they are too sensitive and that they have to forgive me and forget about it, with no apology!

I ache papa coco and aphotic in my view now. It's really none of my abusers' business whether or not I forgive them, and my definition of forgiveness is my business. I need that separation from them to even get close to "forgiveness for my own sake."

[Chart]

If forgiveness helps us, I'm okay with it. If not forgiving helps us, I'm totally okay with that too. I think the state of forgiveness has a time, place and purpose. Equally, anger and the demand for recognition also has a place. Perhaps there comes a tipping point, where crossing over is a step we need at that point in our healing (in either direction). I think we can backtrack as well. I've had several periods of no contact with my mother throughout my life. Eventually we reconnect and "try again". People can change [she hasn't]. But whether they do or don't, the abused child has the absolute right to do what is best for them in the here and now. To forgive or not to forgive, for me, isn't the question. Rather, what's going to best help me to heal from those [please insert your own pejorative descriptive of your abusers here].

[Desert Flower]

I thought about this some more. I think there's two kinds of forgiveness. One is we forgive the other because we're really ready to. And for most of us here, this may be a very long way away.
And the other is, we 'forgive' because the other wants us to. And we shouldn't when we're not ready. I know my mother wants me to tell her she did all right (she wouldn't use the words 'forgive her' because she couldn't really think she did anything wrong), she wants the confirmation, she craves it actually. But for me to give her that would be abandoning little me totally and I won't. If that leaves her wanting, so be it.

And my m also thinks I should forget about it (if not forgive), because isn't everything all right now? But she has no idea how all of this is still affecting me. When I'm anxious, she really does think there's something wrong with me, I'm too sensitive etc., instead of thinking there was something profoundly wrong with what happened to me. So no, not ready to forgive.

And to be using religion, and what that should ask of us, against us is just warped and cruel. It reminds me of my abuser saying I shouldn't talk to anyone about what was going on. It's just something to keep us jailed up. Part of the plan. They will use anything they can not to be found out because they know they're so wrong. We really need to let that go.