Dad’s Text on MD

[Phoebes]

My very enabling dad who I have had several long conversations with about why I am no contact with my NM... first of all, never texts me or calls yet when I text or call he says things like "do you even remember what I sound like?" And I miss you and want to talk to you more often! But yet he never calls or text me or tries to have an actual relationship.

So today, not that big of a surprise after a long period of silence, I get a text saying he hopes I am having a great Mother's Day with my mom. It's so ridiculous and out there and on the nose that on one hand, I see it for what it is. On the other hand, I didn't know he was still in denial about that. at least if he doesn't talk about it he still knows what the deal is right? I told him at great length and fine detail. Or he's not in denial, just trying to paint me a bad person for not being in contact with her.

I remember as I was talking to him about it before his face looking in shock and light deer in the headlights. I didn't realize that by telling him about my mom I would actually be pointing out to him all the things he missed. He needed to hear that anyway, so that was fine. Now he's majorly gaslighting me .

Should I respond to that at all? Probably not. Should I ask him Why do you say that? I don't really know where the conversation go if he didn't listen to me and acknowledge before. It hurts that he doesn't even think about how hard Mother's Day are for me or how this whole situation is for me. He is way more concerned about how his ex-wife feels. I've been going through a hard time with it lately, lots of SI worse than ever. And I'm just starting to do better.

He is going to be here during the period of my sister's wedding at the end of the month and expect to see me otherwise I would just ignore or maybe go NC with him right now too. Honestly, I hope I catch the flu right before the wedding. Or Covid yeah Covid.

[Cascade]

Wow, Phoebes, that is so triggering and unbelievable that he would still try to play you like that!  I'm so sorry to hear that happened.  Wish I had some sage advice but I'm honestly totally blown away.

I, for one, wouldn't wish illness on you for the upcoming wedding.  I guess spring seasons are just rough, with parental days and weddings.  It sounds like you're considering going no-contact with him, which might be your only move at this point -- for your own sanity!  Have you learned any coping mechanisms to help you prepare for the triggers that might rear up around the wedding?

It sounds like you really see things and him for what they are.  That's so huge.  Bravo!
   -Cascade

[Armee]

I'm a sacracstic *** so I'd probably write back "what mom? You mean the one who we talked about being abusive? Nope, not celebrating with that one. Got another mom for me I should know about?"

Or softer: "Dad we talked about my relationship with mom and how harmful it was, remember? Mothers Day is pretty difficult for me and causes a lot of grief and it really hurts that you would ignore that. I wish I had a mom that I could spend the day celebrating with, but I don't. It would help if you would acknowledge the difficult truth here."

I'm sorry he sent that. He is either guilt tripping you or really wants to pretend everything is fine.

[dollyvee]

Hi Phoebes,

I'm sorry you had to get that text, that's crap. I think you're right that's it's so on the nose and he's not choosing to see what's in front of his face even after you told him. I hope you're able to have some distance and see the situation for what it is though I empathsize with how hard it is and how much it just sucks to go through it. But it's a testament I think to all the work you're doing that you can see the dynamic for what it is and that he's not empathisizing with you at all. I hope you can be there for you in a way that they weren't.

I was reading another post recently about what are thee benefits of growing up as a scapegoat in the family, and someone commented how they were able to leave and how much better they're doing now (not that you're a scapegoat). I just felt like for me, it can be so hard to see that yes, I actually am doing better now than I was when I was with my family, and as much as child consciousness me yearns for that connection and protection, adult consciousness me can see that they would've never given it to me no matter what I said. But those are my experiences.

Sending you support and, from me, I'm not a fan of mother's day
dolly

[Phoebes]

All of your support and feedback has been invaluable to me this MD. It seems like last year I got through it the most easily in years but this year was harder.

Cascade, I really appreciate the validation. It's always a shocker at first when my dad does this stuff. You helped me come back down to earth. I have an easier time of intellectualizing these things but the nervous system is still sensitive for sure. I did observe though that it settled down much quicker than in the past, and wasn't triggered as bad as before. Yay me! lol

Have you learned any coping mechanisms to help you prepare for the triggers that might rear up around the wedding?

I imagine grey rock will be in full effect. I'll be around all of the people who I went NC from, who think I'm bad for this, and who covertly take their side. There will be friends there too, so I imagine spending any chatty time with them. I imagine I will be cordial to the abusers but distant, stay as short of time as possible and skedaddle. Sad way to anticipate your sisters wedding.

Im sarcastic too, Armee. lol. Oddly, I learned a long time ago that sarcasm does not compute with my parents. I thought of something like that, too.

"Dad we talked about my relationship with mom and how harmful it was, remember? Mother's Day is pretty difficult for me and causes a lot of grief and it really hurts that you would ignore that. I wish I had a mom that I could spend the day celebrating with, but I don't. It would help if you would acknowledge the difficult truth here."

I'm sorry he sent that. He is either guilt tripping you or really wants to pretend everything is fine.

That is such eloquent words that would make perfect sense to send. I think I will. I will change it up just a bit so I'm not using your exact words but it is perfect. I know he will gloss over it and say something religious and dismissive in response but that is his problem. I think he is BOTH guilt tripping and pretending everything is fine, his two favorite past times. Otherwise he might have to look at his own situation. Oh the horror. The other thing with him is he wants me to think of abusive wife #2 fondly and as a "mom." Cringe to the max.

Thank you for the empathy, Dolly! I am most definitely the scapegoat and do gear a lot of healing around that vantage point. Jay Reid and Rebecca mandeville are two I find helpful.

I was reading another post recently about what are thee benefits of growing up as a scapegoat in the family, and someone commented how they were able to leave and how much better they're doing now (not that you're a scapegoat). I just felt like for me, it can be so hard to see that yes, I actually am doing better now than I was when I was with my family, and as much as child consciousness me yearns for that connection and protection, adult consciousness me can see that they would've never given it to me no matter what I said.

Well said. I've been NC for 9 years now (from NM) and VLC from dad for many years, and still struggle every day. I envy those who say after a couple of years they are thriving and happier than ever. I thought that would be me, honestly.

Some days are better but it is always on my mind. Most of the time just trying to be gentle with myself and remind myself that I am strong, that as a child and young adult I was especially strong and didn't even know it, and that going back would lead to more of the same. I get deeply sad, often. I've tried pursuing dreams, hobbies, fitness, being more authentic..that has led me to basically cut ties with many friends I once had due to now seeing the toxic draining dynamic. But that's another story.

I know I just have to get through this phase, until the next one. It seems it will never end. This is just how "this life" is.

I love and appreciate you all here.
Phoebes

[Armee]

Oh wow geez that's even worse...you've been no contact for NINE YEARS from her and he sent that? I think I was maybe assuming it was still a pretty new concept to him. Goodness. That is an ungodly amount of denial and gaslighting from him in that case. Geez. And gross...with the situation with his current wife you definitely wouldn't want to make my sarcastic quip about a new mom.

    

[Phoebes]

Yeah, the more I think about it and what to write, the more useless it seems. Obviously he doesn't get it. I am feeling more angry about it now. It begs the question how did I even survive childhood? And how did I empathize with these people for 46 years not even realizing it wasn't my fault? I know, but wow. Just insane.

[Armee]

Maybe just a short "really dad?" Let him know you see his BS. Then whatever you want to do with that relationship go ahead and do it. My sister uses this phrase a lot...it's not my style but I tend to give people more benefit of the doubt than is deserved..."when people show you who they are the first time, believe them"

[Phoebes]

Thanks Armee. I do want to say something. It feels so bamboozling. It took me well into NC with my mom to realize he was also suspect. It's confusing because he is a gentle man, one who every thinks is so wonderful, great musician and artist, funny and attractive. So many of my friends over the years, when they meet him, tell me I am soooo lucky to have a dad like that, and I thought so too. I thought he was the good parent.

I went through a lot of grief over this a couple of years ago and came out the other end pretty detached. But it still gets me sometimes, very deeply. He was there and didn't protect. He was fun and talented but didn't spend time with me, teach me anything or include me. I love music and art, too. Why didn't my musician artist dad teach me or validate me? Not a single picture on the fridge my whole childhood. His pristine paintings covered the walls.

I'm trying to have compassion for the last parent I speak to, but when I remember certain things, and when he does this type of thing (by far not the first of this nature), it wrecks me, honestly.

[Armee]

Very understandable to feel wrecked by this dynamic and loss

[dollyvee]

I went through a lot of grief over this a couple of years ago and came out the other end pretty detached. But it still gets me sometimes, very deeply. He was there and didn't protect. He was fun and talented but didn't spend time with me, teach me anything or include me. I love music and art, too. Why didn't my musician artist dad teach me or validate me? Not a single picture on the fridge my whole childhood. His pristine paintings covered the walls.

I'm trying to have compassion for the last parent I speak to, but when I remember certain things, and when he does this type of thing (by far not the first of this nature), it wrecks me, honestly.

Hey Phoebes,

I really get what's going on for you rn. I couldn't understand how my gm (and gf) who told me they loved me could just let my m treat me the way she did and not stick up for me. Not to mention going behind my back and trying to get my m and I back together and inviting her to my university graduation when I specifically didn't. So, they told me they loved me and when I called them out on behaviour like this, it would be but why are you mad at me? Well, why can't you listen to me and yes, I do have that right to be heard. It's not all about you. For me, this was crazy-making, really. It defied reason. Like you, when I would tell other people about her behaviour, they would say well she just really loves you, and all that "it's family" garbage. What it sounds like with your dad to me, is that he had a public persona that everyone liked and served him well, which was good for him. It didn't matter what happened to you and it should have 

What I'm realizing is that there is a part of me, very young, that formed an idealized image of them and this is what helped me survive. Not just an idealized image, but if I do x, then I will receive this love. Now, as an adult, I'm looking for this in other people, but am only just starting to realize that I'm not going to get it. This is a fantasy "love" that I needed to believe about my family and the person I thought I had to be (and what my life should look like) in order to survive. I think it comes from such a young age as well and that's what makes it so hard. I was in a fantasy bond since birth with people I thought loved me, but they were incapable of loving me. All this time I was just trying to do the "thing" whatever it was, so that I could finally be like other people and things would "work out" and I too would be thriving etc. While inside, I still feel it's hard for me to find things that I do well for example. To me, it just shows how strong their voices, and that bond, still is that I can't see the good things I'm doing, or what I've accomplished.

I did pick through a bit of the Jay Reid book and it's tricky because I think it applies to, or illustrates, very typical narcissistic behaviour ie very blatant putting down etc. For me, this applies to my m, but not my gm or gf. However, covert narcissism (gm) and moral narcissism (gf - but can't remember Dr. Ramani's exact term) is trickier to spot. So, I can see why it took so long to work this out, and how under the radar it is. What he did say that sort of clicked was the "narcissist is always above you." I'm only beginning to understand how this applies to my gm and gf and me. Both my gm and gf had lived through the war and came to Canada as refugees. There was always a sense that they had lived through so much, what right did I have to assert myself or question them? I was here because of them, enjoying the life I had. How could I rebel and not do what they say ie simply be my own person? I felt guilty on some level every time I would try, and more so too because my gm seemed so selfless and "giving me everything." But every child has a right to exist and I didn't ask to be born and don't owe them anything (a friend of mine said this to me and it blew my mind, like it was dangerous. It shows me again, how deeply ingrained this stuff is). There's also a lot of cultural beliefs around "family" and how children should "behave" for me as well and as a kid I needed to do all this because it was "safe" and I would surive.

I don't want to make this about me, just pointing out my circumstances and why it was/is so hard to pick out. You're not alone, and it's not you, it's them. Really.

Sending you support and a hug if that's ok 
dolly

[Phoebes]

Hi, Dolly,

Thank you for taking the time to share part of your story, I really do appreciate it and it helps to hear it too, because we do share some of the same experiences. It's always so bizarre to me how they all do and say the same things. The betrayal traumas are never ending.

That really sucks that your GM would invite your mom to your graduation like that. I can really relate to the narcissistic relatives having zero boundaries and also not thinking of us as adults with our own rights and decisions. Having respect for another human being is completely out of their understanding.

I've wondered too, why my relatives did not step in on both sides. My favorite aunt who witnessed a few of the very worst of my mother's episodes because my mother had to "prove her control" to her sister apparently. There were some horrible episodes in private and in front of my dad, but the worst were actually in front of this aunt who was actually my favorite aunt until she passed away. Why didn't she help? Because she agreed!  Then there was the other side of the family who are just simply oblivious. They didn't protect me, still treat me like a child, and are just simply basic and surface level type of people. I have learned you do not mess with the fantasy "family is everything" narrative going on.

My grandparents were also poor with depression era type thinking. It's interesting what you said about challenging their authority and sense of their hardships as feeling dangerous. There was just no questioning them, including my grandfathers inappropriate behavior towards me. I was not allowed to say no because you do not say no to your elders. And when I did speak up, it took a lot of bravery, and my grandmother got right in my face and said if I ever said anything like that again, she would disown me. My parents did not ask me any further questions or protect me or cease to take me there, so I felt very crazy and undeserving of protection. After all, I had disrespected my elders who went through so much . Then, in the years to come, if anything came up about my go my dad would often say " you just don't understand him like I did." Yes that is the level of protection and gaslighting. Honestly, how I'm still in contact I have no idea. It's always been like this just insane amount of denial.

The other thing you said is yes if I just tried to be my own person, I was seen as rebelling and they doubled down on the control. Especially my narcissistic mother. We are talking about things like wanting to wear cut off shorts. Oh the horror. wanting to skateboard. what will people think? Wanting to learn how to play multiple instruments. How dare I disrupt the noise level in the home. One of my problems is I never rebelled at all or spoke up out of sheer terror. And now I am an older grown woman still feeling like I never got to do the things I wanted. I wasn't rebelling. I was prevented from being myself. There's a big difference. I'm sure you can relate.

Then when I was 25 and went back to school to live my dream, finally, my mother shows up at my doorstep and throws a tantrum and tells me "rebelling at (my) age is extremely unattractive". Every time she use the word rebel I was just bamboozled like what? How am I rebelling? I'm going back to college a second time. I so wish I knew then what I know now.

Anyway, yes, and here we are after years of learning and healing and making progress, my dad is still doing what he always did. I got up the nerve to talk to him in detail over several conversations a few years back, and nothing has changed. Obvious I expect something from a rock. I think to my parents I'm just a thing that was supposed to pop out and respect their every whim and have zero thoughts or needs.

I have not read Jays book but I like his videos. He touches on some experiences of the scapegoat that I have had, and how to heal them, that I have not heard from most others. I resonate with what his clients describe.

Anyhoo, sorry so long. I really appreciate you and all here.

[NarcKiddo]

That sucks.

You know, I sometimes think that nothing actually sinks in with these people. If they are told something that does not agree with their narrative they are quite capable of simply pretending it isn't so. Even if they have kicked up a fuss initially, somehow the whole thing just fades back into their own little world view. They just stick their fingers in their ears and sing "la la la". 

[Phoebes]

It's so bizarre. And here I was twisting myself into a pretzel all these years trying to talk to them, figure out what to say, the right way to respond, everything. Then when you stop trying to engage, they think you're a horrible person or have ghosted them or just act like nothing happened and keep right on going. I realized a couple of longtime friends are like this, and I just can't even have the energy.

[dollyvee]

My parents did not ask me any further questions or protect me or cease to take me there, so I felt very crazy and undeserving of protection. After all, I had disrespected my elders who went through so much . Then, in the years to come, if anything came up about my go my dad would often say " you just don't understand him like I did." Yes that is the level of protection and gaslighting. Honestly, how I'm still in contact I have no idea. It's always been like this just insane amount of denial.

I'm sorry you had to go through that and that your parents didn't protect you. I came across this book title called Scapegoating in Families: Intergenerational Patterns of Physical and Emotional Abuse by Vimala Pillari and was intrigued at how this pattern could play out generationally. Something else I read was that scapegoats are the secret keepers/cycle breakers in the family. I guess when you start to look at it in that context, it becomes less crazy making perhaps it's not all about me and what did I do wrong that they didn't love me etc. Not saying it excuses what happened in any way, and not really sure what the antidote to everything is. I guess it sort of sums up why there's a part of me that feels it "has to take everything on" because that was my  role.

The other thing you said is yes if I just tried to be my own person, I was seen as rebelling and they doubled down on the control. Especially my narcissistic mother. We are talking about things like wanting to wear cut off shorts. Oh the horror. wanting to skateboard. what will people think? Wanting to learn how to play multiple instruments. How dare I disrupt the noise level in the home. One of my problems is I never rebelled at all or spoke up out of sheer terror. And now I am an older grown woman still feeling like I never got to do the things I wanted. I wasn't rebelling. I was prevented from being myself. There's a big difference. I'm sure you can relate.

Rebelling is a really interesting word and it's also interesting how loaded words can be. I did feel like I was rebelling if I did anything, and to a certain extent I still align with skateboarders and the "counterculture." However, I also got straight A's and it wasn't like I was a bad person, or that skateboarders are "bad" people. I think because of the history of my family and what they went through, there were very real consequences for speaking out ie the Russian police visited my great grandfather after my grandmother left the country. She rebelled against her parents wishes and things like this happened, or it was an unsafe environment to rebel and you would disappear in the night kind of thing. Her family was persecuted for their heritage after WWI too. I guess being a rebel meant fighting for yourself, but under dangerous conditions. They still carried those ideas to me in childhood and was told things like, "you don't know the way the world works."

I don't blame you for trying to speak with your dad and have a connection, this is something we're born and wired to do. We need that support to survive as children. I kept going back to my family as well thinking they would understand, or looking for that understanding in romantic interests. It's a big, deep feeling when I realize that it's not going to come from them, but from me, and I'm only just beginning to recognize and understand that. You're not alone in that.

Sending you support,
dolly