NatureLuvr's Journal 2024. *** TW. Strong Emotions, Describe Abuse

natureluvr · May 20, 2024, 04:30:18 PM

I'm starting a new journal. My last post in here was in November of 2023. Just to re-aquaint you, I have CPTSD from a sadistic high level narc mom.

Part of me is feeling like I should apologize for not being in here for the past 7 months, but another part is saying that is false guilt. I think it is.

My younger son as now graduated college, and is living with us until July, when his new job starts. It will take him to another state. Thankfully, my relationships with my husband and son are going OK.

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Right now, I'm dealing with anger. I'm coming out of denial about my neurological issues, which I believe were caused by my mother's heavy drinking, drugging, and smoking while she was pregnant with me. It was thought in the past by a couple of mental health professionals that I had Asperger's/High Functioning Autism, but I suspect what I have is FASD (fetal alcohol spectrum disorder). I have most of the neurological traits, and even one or 2 of the physical traits, which to me is pretty compelling. I know she drank heavily when she was pregnant. She admitted it, but not in a way of taking responsibility for it, more in a way of saying that back then, (I was born in May 1961), no one made such a big deal of pregnancy. It was done more in a way to excuse and defend herself. Not only that, on facebook one of her old friends was talking about how he and she and my aunt all got smashed on New Years Eve in 1960 and jumped into a swimming pool fully clothed, when she would have been 4 months pregnant with me. Nice job, mom. Thanks for thinking about your unborn child. Her actions were incredibly immature and selfish, and all she cared about was herself. Not a single thought for the child she was carrying. At 4 months, she new she was pregnant.

Because of not only the CPTSD, but also because of FASD neurological damage, I had some issues as a very young child, which included impulsivity, lower tolerance for frustation, and stubbornness, not to mention language comprehension issues. I was also already emotionally affected by the severe neglect. However, instead of receiving help and support for these challenges, all I got was blame and abuse, as if it was my fault, and I was doing this on purpose just to anger her. In fact, I heard her say that to me many times, that I was purposely trying to upset her, but I wasn't. She used this physical brain damage I had to marginalize me, shun me, and try to convince me, and the rest of the family, that I was inferior and defective. She would even purposely provoke me and work me up into a rage, and then mock at me, and say that my temper tantrum was proof that I was the problem. I was bullied repeatedly throughout my first 9 years of school, and then came home to abuse and neglect.

I've discussed these things with therapists in the past. My anger about this is not as intense as it used to be, so that is good. I'm really careful who I share this with, because the last thing I need is to be lectured that "you should forgive her", or told that "you need to get over this and move on". How can I just forget about this? It has had a very profound impact on not just my inner emotional life, but my external life. I've always had, and still have social issues, and problems with forming relationships/friendships with other people. It's not as bad as it used to be, but I still have significant issues with this. Not only that, but I've been the target for many bullies in the past, not only in childhood, but in adulthood. This is really common for people who are neuro-divergent. There is a lot of overlap between the symptoms of ASD and FASD. The brain damage from in utero drug/alcohol exposure will probably never go away. Not trying to be defeatist, just being realistic.

I hope I don't come across as feeling sorry for myself, and being in self pity. Maybe I am having some self pity. I don't know. I do know that I'm growing in my ability to have some self compassion, and come out of denial about how badly I was harmed. I strongly believe that we can't heal what we don't feel, and I've had a lot of emotional pain buried inside me for a long time. It is gradually coming out, one layer at a time. I do have hope that at least I can lessen the effects of the CPTSD.

natureluvr · May 20, 2024, 04:49:04 PM

I just wanted to add one thing. I have found that when I fully express my anger and hurt and sadness, it is only then that I'm able to let it go.

forestedlot · May 20, 2024, 07:36:41 PM

Hello natureluvr! It's nice to meet you

Your post really resonates with me, I too developed CPTSD (partially) due to my mother's abuse- and the very specific situation you described here is incredibly relatable. I don't want to flood your journal with my own experience, but I want you to know your post is seen. (So, heavy TW for things related to what you mentioned above)

I have ASD, although Ive never brought up the possibility of having FASD with my doctor I'll definitely look into the symptoms and criteria a bit. I don't ask my mother questions about my childhood as she immediately feels attacked- but I can tell you for sure she drank and smoked during her pregnancy with me. Ive seen photos, videos, heard first hand accounts, and even a few times in her most high-strung moments she has admitted it to me; I also know she was abusing illicit substances around this time but I don't have any certainty she did during her pregnancy with me. Although, if you or I just randomly approached her and asked- she would never admit to endangering me at all.

When I was born I "looked normal" (okay mom -_-) so my parents who were already extremely distrustful of the medical system quickly rushed me home, and that was the last time I saw the inside of a hospital for my own treatment until I became an adult. On top of all of this, her pregnancy with me was extremely tumultuous- from me being conceived only a few months after a previous miscarriage, to being pronounced dead during some point of her pregnancy, and eventually being delivered through emergency C section after obstructed labor... I have multiple checked boxes in the "neo-natal trauma" category. Despite all this and much more, the results of this type of trauma were never considered in my development.

I could tell you a hundred stories of how my mother, peers, teachers, partners, and even medical professionals took advantage of and abused me because of my disability. And even now, as a diagnosed adult, my autism is nothing but a complete joke to my parents- I don't think they even believe me. I've spent a few years now researching everything I can about the effects of this type of trauma, because it really feels like I was doomed from the start. Sharing your experience with others, allowing yourself to feel emotions and grieve traumas is the key to healing- but what do you do when the suffering you endured was during a time when language and comprehension did not exist for yourself? Im not sure- but I think expressing all the anger, grief, and disappointment you feel now freely will help. Personally, I make art, go on walks, exercise, and write poetry- but the most important thing Ive started to do is let myself feel, instead of putting my emotions off for another time. I always thought there would be a "right" time or I would suddenly have the motivation and energy to tackle my greatest struggles- but that time never came, so I learned I should probably just get it over with in the moment huh.

Don't worry- your post did not come off at all as feeling pity or sorry for yourself, although I feel sorry for you- I hate to know others understand the pain of such an awful upbringing. Im proud of you for being honest and open with yourself, I struggle immensely with this as well- it's sometimes extremely painful to be honest about the severity of my experiences, it feels like the text reaches through the screen and grabs at my shoulders shaking me back into the traumatic memory. It's so stressful being an adult with ASD, it's hard not to isolate yourself when it seems like you'll never fit in and no one wants you around in the first place- well natureluvr, I want you to know your presence here means the world to me; knowing i'm not going to be judged for being "awkward"or "weird", and i'm not the only person here with ASD (and the trauma that comes with it) gives me a huge sense of relief. Sorry if this was too long- you're awesome, stay strong friend <3

Papa Coco · May 20, 2024, 07:54:22 PM

Naturluvr

I don't feel like your post is at all whining in self pity. I think it's beautifully written. You are expressing something that is absolutely true, and I believe you have every right to be angry at your mother's drinking and at the repeated bullying that you took way too often all those years later.

When I see responses from other members, like this one from Forestedlot, I see that by you sharing your truth, you're already helping others to feel less alone with the same sorts of struggles.

As it "gradually comes out, one layer at a time", I also welcome your writings and I'm honored to be able to read what you feel compelled to write. Most of us on this forum have been made to be quiet for far too long, and the best cure for having to stay quiet is opening up and exposing the truth. It doesn't matter that your mom didn't understand (or maybe didn't care) in 1961 the dangers of drinking while pregnant. That doesn't mean you have to accept it. It happened and you've suffered for it. You have the right to be angry about it. I'm angry about it with you!!!

natureluvr · May 20, 2024, 09:37:04 PM

ForestLot, I'm so relieved and feel support, heard, and understood reading your reply. Thank you for that. So many times in the past when I tried to share with people who haven't been through this, I've been shut down, invalidated, lectured at, talked down to, judged, disbelieved etc. To be honest, in the past 6 months, while I was away from this forum, I've been very on guard and reticent with people "on the ground" so to speak. That doesn't feel good, so I'm really glad to be back here! And, while I'm deeply sorry that you have been through such similar things, I also feel less alone to know that someone else has been through similar situations. You have given me a big gift today with your response. I feel so much less alone and less depressed now. Very soon I will come and check out your journal! I'm very sorry to hear that you, too, were exposed to these substances in utero. To be honest, I feel like this is abuse as well.

I agree, it is very difficult being an adult with ASD, or with FASD. This world is not set up for us, and it doesn't really accept us. I struggle with feeling like I've been marginalized a lot. Even this birding group I've started going to, I feel left out and marginalized. I'll write more on that later.
It's horrible how so many people mistreat and abuse those who are neurodivergent. I think it's absolutely vile and despicable. We lived in a 3rd world country, and the school I went to was pretty bad. It was a school run by North Americans for North Americans living abroad. One time, when I was about 7, a group of about 10 kids made a circle around me, and pushed and shoved me around from one kid to the other very violently. It was an incredibly humiliating and degrading experience for me. This happened right by the schools front door! The principles office was right there. Not one adult or teacher stepped in to intervene! I can't believe that no adult witnessed this! This is only one example of many. Unfortunately, people with CPTSD as well as neurodivergent people tend to see the worst side of human nature in all it's ugliness.

I also relate to you saying you felt doomed from the start. That is how I felt! I felt like I never even had a chance. I too have lots of things I do to cope. My faith and prayer are a really big help. I also walk, and of course I love being out in nature with birding and hiking. I also draw and paint. The biggest thing that is helping me with healing is allowing myself to grieve by crying. This is a huge release valve for me, and after a good cry, I feel so much lighter, and so much relief. Pete Walker talks about this a lot in his book "The Tao of Fully Feeling".

natureluvr · May 20, 2024, 09:57:07 PM

Papa Coco, your post made me tear up. I felt so supported and validated when you said you, too, feel angry about it with me. I feel deeply touched and very much understood. I'm crying now, but tears of gratitude and just being touched. I'm so grateful for this forum, because without it, I would feel very much alone. I am able to talk about these things with my husband, and he supports me, but he doesn't fully understand because he didn't go through it like we did. Too many times, when I tried talking about this stuff with priests, pastors, etc.they were dismissive and cold.

I sometimes fantasize about writing a blog anonymously where I write my autobiography, and reveal all of what happened to me. But I think there is a high chance I would get flamed by some people, and am not ready to deal with that at this point. Perhaps someday I will. I'm so glad to be back here! Being here is giving me renewed hope for the future. In all honesty, I've been getting depressed over the past 7 or 8 weeks, and this is helping very much.

forestedlot · May 20, 2024, 10:53:44 PM

Quote from: natureluvr on May 20, 2024, 09:37:04 PMForestLot, I'm so relieved and feel support, heard, and understood reading your reply. Thank you for that. Very soon I will come and check out your journal!

Im glad I could help you! Knowing I have has made my day! Thank you for your kind words <3

Quote from: natureluvr on May 20, 2024, 09:37:04 PMThis world is not set up for us, and it doesn't really accept us. I struggle with feeling like I've been marginalized a lot. It's horrible how so many people mistreat and abuse those who are neurodivergent. Unfortunately, people with CPTSD as well as neurodivergent people tend to see the worst side of human nature in all it's ugliness.

This really struck a chord in me- I find myself very often frustrated by societies lack of awareness, especially for neurodivergent issues! When big things happen in the news I often find myself avoiding interaction more because of so many people's blissful ignorance or unchecked hatred. Every single person i've met- besides other ND individuals- I have had to inform them the ideas they previously held about neurodiversity are disgustingly incorrect, even people like managers and medical professionals. We deserve better, there's no reason for society to treat us this way- people are often very selfish, lazy, and hateful when it comes to accommodating for or just existing around ND individuals! When often all we need is basic empathy- I'll never understand why some people think we are not deserving of that. Im also incredibly sorry for your experience with such traumatic forms of bullying, I too experienced things similar- it really solidifies the fear you have of crowds and people in general, I always feel trapped and am constantly looking for escape.

Quote from: natureluvr on May 20, 2024, 09:37:04 PMThe biggest thing that is helping me with healing is allowing myself to grieve by crying. This is a huge release valve for me, and after a good cry, I feel so much lighter, and so much relief. Pete Walker talks about this a lot in his book "The Tao of Fully Feeling".

I totally agree, for a long time I had lost my ability to cry but slowly I am regaining it and- wow does it feel good. I still struggle to not feel ashamed and embarrassed of myself when I express any emotions at all, but having an actual release is so much better than the bottled up feelings brooding inside. Ive just started reading Walkers "Surviving to Thriving" and i'm enjoying it very much, so I'll definitely be reading the Tao next. Thank you for the recommendation!! Today is lovely day out for me, so ill probably be spending it outdoors- I hope you will be/were able to do the same! <3

natureluvr · May 21, 2024, 12:34:51 AM

I am baffled by the contempt and disrespect so many have for neurodivergent people. People are learning to tolerate other forms of diversity, why not this? It doesn't make sense to me. I'm really sorry to hear that you too experienced group bullying like this. It's truly awful, and so cruel. I've also read Walker's "From Surviving to Thriving". I found some good help in that book. Yes, I was able to get out and work in my garden today, and also went for a walk!

natureluvr · May 21, 2024, 09:40:39 PM

My husband and I have taken up birding in the past 1.5 years. He and I are both retired. We see this as a relaxing and enjoyable hobby, and a way to get outside and enjoy nature. There is a local group of birders that goes out twice a week. It's free, and you don't have to sign up in advance, which is nice. The leader of the group is a walking bird encyclopedia and highly intelligent. However, he is also arrogant, rude, irritable, argumentative, and flippant. For example, when I mentioned my concern about the drought for last past 2 years back in March, he castigated me for complaining about the weather, and said why complain, it won't do any good. The other day, I made a very brief comment to myself in a soft voice about having a hard time seeing the birds because everything had leafed out so much. He said in flippant tone, "oh well that's life". I get very triggered by this guy. He is very critical and negative. He treats the experienced birders better than he treats the newer birders like us. The other day, he and his cronies got in their cars to go to the next spot, and didn't even tell the rest of us where they were going. Someone had to go up to the car, and ask them. Because he is so smart at the birds, the others just put up with it. I did stand up to him when he chided me for complaining, but it did no good. He seems like he has narcissism, or even a little bit of antisocial personality. My husband thinks that I'm taking his behavior too personally. It's a shame, because the others in the group seem very nice, and other than this, we enjoy this group.

Part of me says, stop going to the group. I don't need to be around this toxicity.

Another part says, just go, and try not to take his behavior personally. The last time we went, I ended up staying in the back, far away from him, and mostly stayed quiet. But in retrospect, I realize that I'm falling back into my CPTSD freeze behavior! Yikes. I don't feel I can relax and be myself in this group because of him.

His behavior doesn't seem to affect my husband the way it does me, and he wants us to keep going to the group.

There are other options for birding groups, such as the local Audubon Society. And, my husband and I can just go by ourselves. It's a shame that something so fun and relaxing is made into a drama because of a toxic leader.

I would love to hear thoughts on this.

Papa Coco · May 21, 2024, 11:55:13 PM

Naturluvr,

That guy would trigger me too. In fact, just reading what you wrote about his flippant, snide remarks makes me angry. I'm sorry to hear that you're having to deal with his arrogance alone, and that everyone else is either unable to see it, or it just doesn't trigger them. It kind of leaves you alone in the same feelings you've been alone in before.

GRR!!! I'm angry about this guy. I know too many of them myself. My problem today is I've developed an uncontrolled, and automatic laugh. When anyone ever behaves like he does to you, I accidentally laugh out loud at them. I don't mean to. I just see how pathetic and self-loathing they are, and I tend to think of them as being clowns or comedians. Like all the characters on the old Seinfeld show. They were comedians pretending to be a gaggle of narcissists, and I got used to laughing at their remarks, so maybe that's why I laugh at narcissists today. I need to get control of this, because some day I might laugh at one who has a weapon in his back pocket, and I'll be running for my life.

I'm sorry that you are stuck being the only one who is offended by this clown, but I'm glad you decided to bring it up in your Recovery Journal, so you can feel our outrage with you. We are all on your side.

These clowns have a way of eventually pushing it too far. Maybe, if you end up staying in his group long enough, he'll eventually push your husband's buttons too, and then you'll be able to sit back and let his reign of childish behavior catch up to him.

natureluvr · May 22, 2024, 10:48:58 AM

Thanks again Papa Coco, for your validation, empathy and support. You have no idea how much you are helping me. I believe that there are quite a lot of people like this in the world now. They are just miserable people, and tend to use the world as their emotional toilet. By that I mean they are unhappy, and try to get rid of it by taking it out on other people. My husband and I are going birding alone today, and hope we don't run into him. We seen to run into him a lot at the popular birding locations. If we do and if he is a jerk, I hope I have the wherewithall to be assertive with him, and then just walk away. Or, maybe just walk away in the first place.

NarcKiddo · May 22, 2024, 01:03:43 PM

I am sorry you have this terrible birding leader spoiling what should be a fun activity. I bet you are not the only one to be irked by him, but people mostly just pretend it's all OK so as not to cause ructions.

I know it can feel like you're perpetuating a freeze response but I think in situations like this avoidance can be the best policy if you want to keep going to the group. My personal approach would be to try to be assertive if faced with a personal attack, especially if you were to encounter him on an outing which is not a group outing. You were right to stand up to him when he wrongly accused you of complaining about the weather when you were simply making a comment. However, I fear you are right that he is probably some sort of narc, given that your standing up to him did no good.

I wonder if there might be any mileage in making friends with the nice ones in the group. Maybe at some point suggesting that the nice ones get together for a coffee or something. You might ultimately end up with a breakaway group of nice people who can have their own birding outings without narc leader. I would not be at all surprised if there are nice people in the group who have quite a lot of experience but have no opportunity/don't dare to display it because of him. Just a thought.

As to your first post - you are wise to be careful who you share things with. There are lots of people who say you should forgive yada yada yada.

Er, no. You do not have to forgive. You do not have to forget. As for "getting over it" - well, if we could just do that we all would have done it by now. Sheesh, it's annoying when people say that. Holding on to anger can be damaging to you in the long term but it can be protective as you work through things. I am slowly getting rid of my anger at my mother, but when discussing this in the early days with my T I told her I needed my anger. Because at that stage I was still harbouring much more hope than was warranted that maybe she did love me, maybe she would be nice to me, and all those old misconceptions. The anger helped shore up my boundaries and remember that when she love bombs it is not because she loves me. You need to deal with things in your own good time. People who start saying "should" or "must" or such like are very unlikely to be worth listening to.

I hope you have a great birding outing today.

natureluvr · May 22, 2024, 07:51:47 PM

Hi NarcKiddo, thanks for some very good ideas, and for the support about the jerk. Excellent idea about starting the breakoff group. I will consider that, and perhaps someday try doing that. Thanks for saying that an avoidance response is not necessarily a freeze response. I find if I keep my distance from him, it's OK. And, I can stay in the back of the group, and still talk to the nice people. I am going to be giving that group a break for a while, until I'm ready to go back. I got so triggered I've been ruminating about it for the past 6 days. Gotta love CPTSD. I'll probably go back eventually. I don't go birding in the summer due to heat and humidity here, but perhaps in the fall I can pick it up again.

I also want to validate and support you in the idea that we sometimes need our anger to help us set and maintain boundaries. I've found that to be true myself. In the past, I was too quick to forgive, and then I'd just get hurt again and again. I finally went NC with narc mom and narc sis 3 years ago. Narc sis has been trying to hoover me since then, and I am completely radio silent, ignoring her hoovers. It's probably driving her crazy. I'v got her blocked on everything, but she can still send me stuff in the mail. My husband just throws it away. This time, I've been making it a point to not forget all the foul, sh*** things they've said and done to me, to help me keep my boundaries. I had huge amounts of rage towards narc Mom, but this rage has greatly lessened, thankfully. She has become a very lonely old woman with no friends or family other than her golden child daughter who is also a narc. This daughter (my sister) and my mom are moving to another state which is wonderful, because until now we've been living in the same town. Now, I don't have to be concerned about running into them somewhere. I see narcmom for what she really is now - a cold, empty, loveless person who is very miserable. How awful to be approaching the end of your life (age 88) having alienated all your children except your one golden child (there were 4 of us). The 2 other siblings barely put up with her, can't stand her, and are pretty distant from her. Even the golden child who lives with her is hiring someone to take care of her, and sponging off of her so she doesn't have to work. Pathetic situation. What goes around comes around, and maybe I do have some schadenfreude to see this happen.

And yes, I did have a good birding trip today! It was a beautiful trip and we (hubby and I) enjoyed the natural setting with woods, creeks, wildflowers, butterflies, and saw some neat birds.

dollyvee · May 23, 2024, 09:36:59 AM

Hi Naturluvr,

I read your first post and there was an element of why do we have to be angry at our parent that it brought up in me. Not that I think you were being self-pitying, though perhaps I've felt this about myself too, and in the past I would've probably "toughen up" and just tried to move past it. I really thought about my reaction and it came to me that I was never allowed to be angry at my parent. Of course it makes sense that I shouldn't feel like that, the idea was taken away from me that I should feel like that in the first place. It sounds like perhaps this happened to you too when your m would mock you for your anger and likely trying to set healthy boundaries.

In my early twenties, I was very angry with my mother and didn't try to hide it though I was told by my gm to let it go. I don't think I understood the family dynamic (narcissism) and thought if I just expressed it enough (in the right way?), they would get it. The problem then was me still not doing something "right." To be honest, it really did just feel like futile anger and perhaps that reinforced the idea that anger won't do anything. I think perhaps that anger was directed at getting someone else to understand and inevitably change how they were treating me, and not using that anger to change how I allowed myself to be treated because again, it had been planted so early that I shouldn't be angry, and it was my experience that it didn't change anything. Or that I would just end up in these "power struggles" with people who were more "powerful" than me. I'm still working this out.

Like you, I seem to "find" these toxic people and have spent a lot of time trying to avoid them, placate them, etc. Like PC, I too laugh at these people. This had produced tensions and unfortunately the need for these people to prove themselves, sort of along the lines of what NK mentions. I think that growing up the way I did allowed me to "see" peoples' behaviours in a way that others don't. I often find I will say something about someone, or rather put feelers out to other people to see what they think, and a lot of times it takes a while to "catch on." For example, someone was recently likening their current mood to a rape scene in a tv drama and no one batted an eye. I mentioned how odd that was to someone who also came from a traumatic background, and they said they had similar feelings about this person. I feel like I'm recently trying the "screw you (or other expletive choice)" approach, which was something I wasn't allowed to do growing up with the caveat that it doesn't make me a difficult person to voice my opinion around people like that, but like NK said, I'm also weary that the situation can escalate. I guess it's just learning what those boundaries are for standing up for myself, and that I am in fact allowed to have them.

I hope you're able to go out and enjoy nature in the way that feels good for you. I also find it very healing to be in nature. It was also my experience that my m was probably drinking and smoking during her pregnancy with me. When I would criticize her for doing it while she was pregnant with my brother, she would say well I did it with you and you turned out fine. So, I get the lack of care and denial with thing like that. Though again, it's hard for me to hold onto that for myself. So, you're not alone.

Sending you support,
dolly

natureluvr · May 23, 2024, 03:29:58 PM

Dollyvee said

I really thought about my reaction and it came to me that I was never allowed to be angry at my parent. Of course it makes sense that I shouldn't feel like that, the idea was taken away from me that I should feel like that in the first place. It sounds like perhaps this happened to you too when your m would mock you for your anger and likely trying to set healthy boundaries.

Yes, it did! I was absolutely not allowed to be angry at my mother, or to disagree in any way. No boundaries at all were allowed, and yes, I was trying to set a boundary with my mother, and she took it personally. I was abused whenever I tried to say "no". She even threw that in my face a lot as I got older - she would say "you were so stubborn once you hit the age of 2". She wanted complete total submission.

Dollyvee said

I think perhaps that anger was directed at getting someone else to understand and inevitably change how they were treating me, and not using that anger to change how I allowed myself to be treated because again, it had been planted so early that I shouldn't be angry, and it was my experience that it didn't change anything. Or that I would just end up in these "power struggles" with people who were more "powerful" than me. I'm still working this out.

I remember being compliant when I was ages 4 to about 16. Then, I started to really try to fight my mom, to get her to back off and stop trying to control and criticize me constantly. All I know is I felt extremely suffocated, and was just fighting to survive. I finally figured out that fighting her was completely futile, so at age 21 or so I just gave in and starting giving her the gray rock treatment, which I figured out on my own. However, I still had a lot of rage inside towards her, which I just stuffed down inside me. In the early 1980's, there was no awareness of narcissim.

All that you say resonates with me deeply. It sounds like we were both trained to have no boundaries, and now we are trying to figure out how to establish healthy boundaries as adults. I know I'm often terrified to set boundaries today, because I was punished severely for trying to set them as a child. I often end up feeling like I'm in a catch 22, because I really want and need to set a boundary, but yet I'm terrified to do it. Hopefully, as we set boundaries with healthy people, and they don't punish us for it, it will get easier to do eventually.