Why I attract these narcissist women/'friends'

[Desert Flower]

Apologies for 'flooding the board' or if it's too much. I just have so much I need to vent.

So I have this pattern in my life that a certain type of older women and me become 'friends'. They are very extraverted, 'strong' women, some ten years older than me. I have three of them now: J, A and E. And I've been wondering how this has happenend and what is actually going on here. Because I'm not sure I actually like them. They are draining me. And this is what I've come up with.

All of them are 'too' extraverted (for me), really assertive (part of me admires that), aggressive really. They don't do any self-assessment. Everything is always about others being wrong. They have no modesty, no doubts about themselves. (Except for A, a little bit).

The thing is, I think they sense I have no/not enough bounderies, I dare not go against them, I give them affirmation (even when I don't agree at all). They dump all their garbage on me and I take everything on. They like that. But I don't.

They don't leave any room for me or what I wanna say, they take up all my space (I physically feel this), they grossly overstep my boundaries (where are my boundaries is the question actually?) and they suck up all my energy. Whatever they wanna do, we do. And when I'm in a place I don't know, and they seem to be fearless, I let that happen, part of me finds that convenient.

And really, each of them is traumatized herself. I know that. And I used to think that what I found attractive about them, is they have a different strategy to life then my m, who is the passive aggressive type. I thought I liked that. But I do not like the way I feel with them anymore.

So tadaa! Of course many of you know already, but I only just now found out: they are Narcissists!

I thought they made me feel safe. But they don't really. They scare me. And I fawn fawn fawn with them. And that is a strategy I know and THAT makes me feel safe!

The thing is, had they been men, I would have recognized this way way sooner I think. In women, I tended to think they wouldn't be so bad or something? (Like my m, I thought she couln't really have been that bad. But she has, I'm sorry to say.) With women, it used to be less obvious to me what could go wrong in such a relationship, what it does to me. I'm starting to see here.

So a question that remains is:
- Why is it women this age? (A little older than me, but not as old as my m.)

And mostly:
- How to deal with this? How to protect myself? Do I end these relationships/'friendships'? Part of me feels sorry for them too. And how would I do this? Tell them straight up? Or just avoid any more contact, say I have no time or something.

Any ideas are welcome.

[dollyvee]

Hey DF,

I am familiar with attracting "certain types" who then seem to have no regard for my needs, and end up becoming a dumping ground. Unfortunately, when I started setting boundaries, or talking to them about their behaviour, they generally disappeared. It seems like a positive step to me that you're recognizing what you need out of the relationship and what is too much for you.

When I first came to OOTS, I listened to a podcast called Beyonf Bitchy about boundaries that started clarifying things for me. I didn't know what they were and I didn't know that I was allowed to have them. I was just taught to do everything for everyone, all the time. My needs didn't matter.

Since you're asking for advice, you might try to bring it up with them that it feels too much for you at times to listen/be an emotional dumping ground, and I think you're well within your rights to say, it's too much for me right now to handle this, let's talk about something else, and see how they respond. If they respect your boundaries and are happy to talk about something else, and put a pin in it, great. If they don't, then I think you're also within your rights to have more distance in that friendship. Maybe they will come around, and maybe they won't if they're narcissists. Friendship should be give and take. I had a friend who was always negative about everything in her life, her health, her relationships etc etc. I was taught, or learned, to solve peoples' problems for them and sometimes it's hard for me to turn that part off when dealing with people like that. Of course, they may just want space and someone to say, you got this. However, it always felt draining to listen to that and to feel like they weren't doing anything to help themselves. I feel at a certain point you have to say, I can't listen to this if you're not going to take steps to work on the problem. So, they stopped speaking to me, and when I came back to it and tried to talk to them months later, they blew me off. Is this the best way to handle it? I don't know 

I hope you find some space and a way forward that feels right for you,
dolly

[NarcKiddo]

If they are actual narcissists then I don't think challenging them will be helpful for you. Cutting off a friendship by telling them you no longer want their company will likely incite rage - actually that approach would probably have negative consequences in the short term with anyone, given nobody likes to be "dumped".

I can't offer advice that I know first hand might work, since my lifelong policy has tended to be cut and run. Maybe try distancing myself and using grey rock a bit? Try becoming a bit boring and more unavailable. If they are narcs they may just replace you and find supply elsewhere. That tells its own story. If they ask you if something is wrong they could still be a narc. But if you then maybe open up a little bit (not enough to be really hurt if they are a narc) their ongoing behaviour should tell you much. A narc will quickly bring everything back to themself. A non narc is more likely to be interested in you and want to help with whatever the problem is. It should become reasonably clear if the other person has been missing your company because they like you (i.e. they are not a narc) or has been missing your company because they just want you to build them up (a narc).

Alternatively you could try fawning a little bit less and see how that feels for you and how they react. If they say someone else is wrong and you disagree then you can tell them (politely) and see if they fly into a narc rage or are prepared to at least consider another point of view. If you are at the point where you are prepared to end these friendships completely then giving them a bit of push back could be good for you. If they don't like it and end the friendship - well, you were prepared to do that yourself anyway. However, by trying a different approach you are giving them a chance rather than running (and giving yourself an opportunity to try a new approach). That is a scary thing to do, so I would not blame if you if you just ran. But you have said A might have some self-awareness so maybe she might not be a full-blown narc.

I'm rambling now, but those are my thoughts on your post. I am sorry you are having to deal with these people - especially if they are full-blown narcs.

[Kizzie]

I think Dolly And NK said it all. I would just emphasize being ready for a not so wonderful response if you do anything to set boundaries/tell them how you feel. If they are N's then likely they won't react well. The other part is being prepared to lose them as friends. Part of the reason we fawn is because we are afraid of them,  but also of losing them. You do sound like you are ready or just about ready to call them on it or step away (progress!), so good luck! 

[Papa Coco]

One of my favorite movies was called The Perks of Being a Wallflower. Actor Logan Lehrman plays Charlie, a traumatized teen boy who's returning to high school after being hospitalized after his best friend's suicide. He notices that his older sister lets her boyfriend brutalize her at times, and sees friends being abused by their friends and families and he asks Actor Paul Rudd, who's playing his English-literature teacher why so many people let others hurt them all the time. Paul Rudd says "We accept the love we think we deserve." That saying ends up being the movie's overarching theme.

For me, what I can learn about myself changes what I expect others to do to me. For decades, I used to ask, "Why is it that when one villain leaves my life another one just like them takes their place?" I didn't understand. Was there a God who was a bully, and just wanted me to keep repeating this same cycle over and over and over? 

What I have been learning lately is that I have a core self that believes it knows certain things. Whatever it knows, it creates. I used to "know" that I was a worthless, invisible, cinderfella whose only job in life was to tend to the needs of narcissists. What I know about myself is what drives my faith and my trust. I know I'm worthless, so my faith attracts people who fit into what I know about myself. I trust people that I KNOW won't hurt me, but I didn't used to know that there are people who won't hurt me.

For me, speaking only for myself, the thing that has stopped narcissists from becoming my "friends" (servant-Masters), was me learning that I am NOT everyone's servant. Through years of painstaking treatments, self-help books, meditations, medications, etc., I've begun to know that my role is not to be the world's servant/scape goat. I now know that I was groomed to be a servant by people who had no right to do that to me. They were wrong. As I began to know that I am worthy of love, my faith began to attach itself to my knowledge that I deserved better love and it followed suit to attract better people. I used to attract the love I thought I deserved, and it was bad. But I began to believe I deserved better, and now I attract the love I know I deserve, and I get better love now.

After reading a few amazing books about sociopaths, I learned and began to know what they really are, and it seems that I no longer attract them. What I know about myself can be changed with proper training and loving therapy. As I learn that I'm not bully-bait, bullies seem to stop connecting with me.

To me, faith is how we call to us what we know we deserve. So, to me, nobody needs to learn how to have faith or trust. Spending time trying to learn how to have faith or trust is like trying to stop a fever without addressing the illness that's causing it. By spending my time working on what I know about myself, faith and trust just cure themselves. If I know I'm good, I will trust in good. If I know I'm good, faith will attract what I know I deserve. Good.

What we need to learn is the truth that we truly are as deserving of love as is any other soul alive. As we work on finding people who help us learn to love ourselves, we begin to know that we are loveable, and our faith and trust follows suit. If I KNOW I'm lovable, then I have the faith to attract loving people. Also, as I learn to know that I'm lovable, I automatically begin to trust the love I receive from good people.

For what it's worth, Desert Flower, I personally think you are a loveable soul. A beautiful soul. Anyone you can find to help you learn that you are lovable will help reduce the amount of narcissists that attach themselves to you.

PS The two books I read that began to tell me how to recognize and reject narcissist were: In Sheep's Clothing, by George K Simon and The Sociopath Next Door by Dr. Martha Stout. From there, my DBT therapist and a lot of spiritually minded hypnotherapists and teachers and guides have helped me begin to love myself enough to where the villains are no longer filling the vacated roles of the last villain. While I continue to struggle with trauma-related reactions and mood swings, the loss of these monsters in my life has been softening the suffering quite a bit in me. I still struggle, but I don't hate myself anymore. And that helps me endure and rise up from suffering much more quickly than I used to be able to do.

[Desert Flower]

Thank you dolly, NarcKiddo, Kizzie, for taking the time to respond. (I'm a little tired at the moment, so this may not be so eloquent.)
I may have sounded more confident than I am. I'm scared to actively end these friendships.
But I feel I would actually not mind losing the friendships, because I feel I'm not gaining much by keeping them on (this to me sounds horribly selfish). I think I could try being less available.

And Papa Coco, your post certainly gives me a lot to think about, I will need some time to let this simmer. For now, thank you for your kind words and support. And I think you're right too. I do not deserve to feel so drained by these women.

[AphoticAtramentous]

Hey Desert Flower,
I'm sorry you're dealing with this stuff right now. I don't have much experience with narcissists specifically but I have had my fair share of dodgy friendships. I'll advise what seemed to work for me, but do note that we are of course all different beings with our own different ways of doing things - so I understand completely if you don't think it's the right solution for you.

But if I were you, I would cut them off completely. I know some would like to try and work with what they have, try to develop their relationships, but I think that can often lead to a miserable slope of agony. You might try to establish boundaries, they end up getting squashed (which seems to be clear from what you recount), you end up feeling worse. And in some cases, it can only entrench you into their web even further.

I always had a liking to the idea that "No friends are better than toxic friends". Loneliness of course sucks immensely, but I have found it far more tolerable than dealing with people like that. Either send them a message, and politely state that you are moving on to pursue other things. Or you can ghost them and block them, if possible.

But again, that's just my own take on it.
I hope things will get better for you soon, whichever method you use. You deserve to have a say in your relationships.

Regards,
Aphotic.

[Lakelynn]

prepared to lose them as friends. Part of the reason we fawn is because we are afraid of them,  but also of losing them. You do sound like you are ready or just about ready to call them on it or step away (progress!), so good luck! 

Desert Flower, I'm gonna harp on my favorite concept here. What you feel and know. Intuition. So when these feelings and awareness comes up, Kizzie said it best.

Consider also that it might not be a seismic shift, but some uncomfortable times that MAY transform into something better.

[Desert Flower]

I've not had any contact with the people I mentioned. Whereas before, I would feel obliged to ask them over, ask how they are doing, I've not been doing that. And if they contact me, I plan on being avoidant, say I have no time etc. Because I don't miss them to be honest (ouch this sounds harsh to me).

And I've thought about this a little more. How they attach to me in the first place. What happens is, these people, when I first meet them/see them, they scare me. They are the biggest bullies / attention seekers / needy people / Narcissists in the room. I'm instantly afraid they will overstep my boundaries, ask too much of me, drain me. And because they scare me, my initial response is to fawn. And this fawning looks a lot like I actually like them and that is why they're drawn to me, they think I like them and they like that of course. They need someone to like them probably. And they hone in on me and then I cannot seem to get away anymore, because I don't know how to leave, end the conversation and I'm afraid to say 'no' when they ask me something and when they're needy, I feel I should deliver.

So.

What I'll start practicing is to lean back whenever I see this kind of person (that is, if I have enough presence of mind to notice the likes of them), not acting as if I like them, feeling I'm afraid probably, but try not to fawn/ and leave/retract if I feel like it. Sounds difficult now that I write this, but I'll try. Keep you posted when I have any updates.

[NarcKiddo]

I'm glad you have not had contact with these people. And there is nothing wrong with saying you don't miss them. It's a simple truth and as well to acknowledge it to yourself. It's not as if you are saying it to their face.

I'm also glad you are thinking about why you get saddled with this type of person and how to deal with it. You mention the possibility you might not have the presence of mind in the moment to notice you are getting sucked in. That resonates. It can be really, really hard to think on one's feet, especially if all the danger klaxons are going off and the old coping mechanisms are coming into play. Maybe one thing you could try to remember is that if these are new people they will not know what you are like. So you can maybe have a stock excuse or two ready for the type of scenario you might often get stuck with. Either for use in the moment or to get out of something you wish you hadn't agreed to.

I am thinking along the lines of:

Narc: Oh, DF, you are such fun. Let's go shopping next week. I need a new coat and you can help me choose it.
DF: Yay! That sounds fun. Of course I'll come.
Later...
DF: Oh, heck. I don't want to go shopping with this person. She may be a narc and I hate looking at coats.

At which point you find a suitable way to tell the Narc you are so terribly sorry but you had something else in your diary. Or have a cold, or whatever. The Narc does not know you at all so has no way to know if such a thing is out of character. It is worth remembering that you can always, always, go back on a social arrangement if you need to in order to protect yourself. And the less the other person knows you the more they will believe you, even if you think it is blatantly obvious you are making an excuse. Plus the other person has not had time to get invested in having their hooks in you so you just become boring and they float off to do their Narc business elsewhere. You are really not hurting anyone.

[Kizzie]

Plus the other person has not had time to get invested in having their hooks in you so you just become boring and they float off to do their Narc business elsewhere.

So true! If you don't entertain them and do your best to be boring then they will usually move on.      

[Desert Flower]

Right, be boring! (I realise I'm always trying to be fun. Okay, not fun, boring  )

[Kizzie]

   

[Papa Coco]

Narcissists. What I've found to work is just not engaging with them. Their power is in their lies. They aren't smart enough to get what they want with the truth, and I won't give them what they want if they lie, so I'm not easy prey. If I don't respond to their lies, they have no interest in me. They literally turn and walk away at the moment they can see in my eyes that I won't engage. They look for easy prey. Once I learned who they are, they lost their taste for me. I can't be manipulated now like I could when I didn't know how to spot them.

It's not easy to work for them because if you don't give them what they want, they are prone to fire you or punish you with the worst work and the smallest pay raises. So there needs to be some finesse in dealing with narcissists who have authority over us. For that, a little book reading about them would be a place to find ways to deal with them without selling your soul.