“You teach others how to treat you”

[rainydiary]

I was looking up something lately based on how I was feeling.  I saw an article that said something along the lines of "you teach others how to treat you." 

This phrase rubs me the wrong way and I'm curious what others think.  I've been experiencing a lot of shame since reading this.

I would say that statement doesn't account for trauma and how brains work when under stress.  It doesn't account for diversity in how brains experience the world.

I do see how we can communicate our needs and preferences to others. 

But I just can't move past how awful that phrase sits with me.

[Kizzie]

I was looking up something lately based on how I was feeling.  I saw an article that said something along the lines of "you teach others how to treat you." This phrase rubs me the wrong way and I'm curious what others think.  I've been experiencing a lot of shame since reading this.

I can only imagine how much it rubs you the wrong way and causes you to feel shame given it puts the responsibility (blame) for our abuse on us. I think the phrase should be "Perpetrators teach their victims--children and adults--how to behave in order to survive". That better reflects what happens to survivors who don't see a way out and puts the responsibility back where it belongs - on those who emotionally, physically and/or sexually abuse others because they have some type and degree of power over them.

Please do yourself a kindness and let go of the shame, you don't deserve it, none of us do. 

[lostwanderer]

I have a lot of thoughts about that phrase but I'm not sure if I'll be able to elaborate them all here.  I have heard that phrase a lot over the years of my healing journey.  For a long time I actually took it as an empowering phrase especially in terms of establishing and holding boundaries with others.  More and more recently though I have been questioning this and myself ... have I just taken this phrase to create impenetrable walls around me to actually keep others out?  I'm not sure I know the answer anymore.  And I'm not sure if there is a right or wrong answer either.

But you mention how you noticed feelings of shame come up for you when you stumbled on that phrase and I think that's enough to pay attention to.  (meaning: if the phrase doesn't sit right with you, you don't have to embrace it).  And I do think that you're right that this phrase and trauma don't seem to mix well.

[rainydiary]

Kizzie and lostwanderer, I appreciate the perspective and thoughts.

I do think I saw that phrase in the context of discussing boundary setting.  I do agree that I have needed work on boundary setting.  But I think the reasons for needing that work are important too.

It is helpful to be reminded that if something doesn't resonate for me I don't have to hold onto it. 

[lostwanderer]

Thank you for bringing this here, rainy - it's given me a lot to ponder. 

[Desert Flower]

A phrase like this is sooo tricky.

On the one hand, I can see what they're saying, kinda like what PC wrote in response to one of my posts the other day: when we really start believing who we are, that we're good people and when we know we deserve good things (I'm paraphrasing PC), we start receiving the good things we deserve. This was a wonderful post:
https://www.cptsd.org/forum/index.php?topic=16242.msg145929#msg145929

But a phrase like this could also easily be read like: you were wearing the short skirt so you asked for it. Which I really really don't agree with and thoroughly dislike.

Just my thoughts here.

[Kizzie]

I guess my point was that often as survivors we let people crash our boundaries because we have had to employ that strategy to avoid further abuse. I would add to that "until we are ready to make those boundaries stronger and not let that happen any longer". That said, I think it takes a massive amount of courage to finally stand one's ground after years, sometimes a lifetime of being abused/neglected. It is about finally understanding at some point we do not deserve to be treated badly and that takes unlearning years of training and get to a point when we will enforce our boundaries. 

Above all else though IMO we need to be compassionate with ourselves and think about why we don't have great boundaries in the first place. There are good reasons and they don't include being weak as I see it, it's about knowing deep inside we must do certain things to keep ourselves safe until we feel strong enough and deserving enough to stand our ground.

It's too simplistic to look at the phrase without considering the context of why we as survivors often don't enforce our boundaries because to do so will cause shame. Shame is something we do all too well, compassion and understanding not so much until we are a ways into recovery.   

  

[Desert Flower]

That's appreciated, Kizzie, thank you!
 

[Chart]

I do think I saw that phrase in the context of discussing boundary setting.  I do agree that I have needed work on boundary setting.  But I think the reasons for needing that work are important too.

I've often been aware of this confusion. In my opinion it's simply imperative to separate the two. The appearance is that they are somehow "inter-dependent". But I firmly believe that they are not. One is a consequence of the other. But needing to set boundaries doesn't mean that the "fault" lies with that person. However setting boundaries is the responsibility of the individual. It is possible to be responsible, but not at fault. It's an important distinction to make... and in regards to abuse, incredibly important to make as well.

It is helpful to be reminded that if something doesn't resonate for me I don't have to hold onto it.

Absolutely! Rather it seems something IS resonating as a feeling of shame is coming up, and that's perhaps very interesting to explore.

Often I know the feeling I'm feeling is "wrong", but I still feel it so it's part of me. What I try to do is figure out where it's coming from so as to better be able to change it.

It's a tricky area. This goes directly into the philosophical concept of Polarity. I find it very interesting.

[dollyvee]

I've often been aware of this confusion. In my opinion it's simply imperative to separate the two. The appearance is that they are somehow "inter-dependent". But I firmly believe that they are not. One is a consequence of the other. But needing to set boundaries doesn't mean that the "fault" lies with that person. However setting boundaries is the responsibility of the individual. It is possible to be responsible, but not at fault. It's an important distinction to make... and in regards to abuse, incredibly important to make as well.

 

I think it also touches on shame as rainy said. When we are shame bound, we are likely to take things personally (as everything is about us) and therefore we are at fault, we are wrong in our minds, but to me, that's child consciousness talking and, as you said Chart, there is the adult consciousness where we can be responsible in the here and now. As Kizzie said, it takes time to get to that point and be able to separate the two.

[Chart]

Rainydiary, thank you for starting this thread. This is a complex topic that goes deep to the heart of social perceptions, language meaning, emotional reactions, mutual understanding, explicit, implicit, etc etc.

"Responsibility" seems to be one of the major social themes these days. To my way of thinking, vast proportions of humans look first and foremost to the errors of others, long before they examine their own position in the dynamic. The "fault" is very simply someone else's. The problem is that this is neither true nor false. It's not black and white. So it can be extremely difficult to wrap our head around, especially when feeling strong emotions (like guilt).

I encourage everyone to look into the concept of Polarity which actually goes back thousands of years. Understanding it's implications was a real revelation for me and gave me an enormous appreciation of human nature and why the world is so messed up.

Unfortunately the only good link/resource I have is in French. But I'm pretty sure Wiki gives a good overview of the philosophical aspect.

[Phoebes]

I had responded to this and it's not here, rainy. I think my internet is glitching.

Anyway, I just wanted to support how you feel about this "saying"..there are several mainstream sayings that completely miss the dynamics of narcissistic abuse, gaslighting, scapegoating, smear campaigns. They are victim blaming to say the least.

A big reason I stopped going to therapists. They loooove that saying. I already blamed myself for everything from an early age. It's taken a long long time to un-warp the notions that the abuse and lack of love were all my fault, and then I could never fix it.

So, to keep being told by people who I was literally paying to help me-they were the experts, right?- that I taught them how to treat me. That all of my relationship struggles later were me teaching them how to treat me. I literally almost offed myself on this premise alone.

Very very damaging, that one. I think in the end that I see these types of sayings as an extension of a society that really does not relate to narcissistic abuse unless they have experienced for themselves. They come from people who think they have it all figured out, but really I have no clue. Another indication that we will likely never be understood here, but I've decided to be ok with that. I get it now, but it still hurts viscerally.

[Chart]

To be clear, this statement "You teach others how to treat you" CANNOT EVER apply to children. During the developmental period only one thing matters to the child: survival. And as a child is entirely dependent upon their caregivers it is unquestionable that they are in ANY way "responsible" for how they are treated.

Once a person's brain has "finished" the greater part of its development, only then can we begin to understand that the patterns and conditioning of this person (learned through being abused as a child) comes into any semblance of "personal responsibility", AND NOT for the abuse they were subjected to, but rather the fundamental concept of individuality and self-actuation... as well as the refusal to continue life in "victim status".

I have this very day immensely empowered myself by recognizing a pattern of manipulation and disrespect by my daughter and my ex-wife (both of whom are 100% unconscious of what they have inflicted upon me). (Long story short, I was at the police station today for my ex-wife's narcissistic incapacity to have a relationship with her daughter in a responsible  manner...)

Recognizing the pattern of how I am being treated, I have taken significant steps today to "counter" and "negate" this demeaning behavior. I have reacted in a manner that refuses to "feed" into my abuse by both my daughter (11 yrs) and my ex-wife (51 yrs).

I can ONLY do this once I recognize how my OWN behavior has "permitted" others to abuse me (my whole life). Once I recognize this, I can change my behavior, not accepting, not allowing, and very simply self-establishing respect and integrity in my interactions with toxic (and non-toxic) people.

My "energy" changes... and automatically I am treated differently. I "refuse" the bad, manipulative, cruel, uncaring, idiotic, insensitive treatment by others. I express this from a deep level and can send the signal that this behavior on their part is unacceptable (and could even be detrimental to them) because I am a person of integrity and posses a fair amount of self-worth and self-power.

THIS is the meaning of taking HEALTHY responsibility for our current and continuing abuse by toxic people around us.

[Desert Flower]

Wow Chart, that is powerful.

[dollyvee]

Phoebes I'm sorry your t wasn't more sensitive to what was going on from you and you were able to recognize how much you blamed yourself and how damaging that was to you. I remember being with my second therapist and him wanting to make an evaluation as to whether I was a little bit borderline or histrionic because I was still basically enmeshed with my npd family and it felt like he was saying it's me, my fault that I'm so emotional. He also suggested that my m might be narcissistic and that didn't compute for me until 10 years later. Sometimes I feel that when therapists say things, they don't account for how it's going to be handled by a trauma addled brain. Of course I couldn't see that my m was a narc because I was so conditioned to me being the problem. My whole family was telling me what "I" had to do (basically don't have boundaries and listen to the things we tell you). It wasn't until I found out about cptsd some 10 years later that I could begin to say, it's not me.

For me it's almost a catch 22 that what do you mean I'm showing people how to treat me when that's the only thing I've ever known growing up? Like how can this be my fault? On the other hand, these are probably not the healthiest or best patterns that I've learned (the other catch 22 being the younger I probably learned them, the more safe and needed they feel) and how do I get to the point where I separate that it's not about me (shame) and about what happened to me?

I'm sorry again that you felt like that.

Sending you support,
dolly