I need help

[Armee]

TRIGGER WARNINGS CSA AND SELFDOUBT



I'm in the throes of an emotional flashback unfortunately. Full of doubt. I know what triggered it, a few days ago. I might talk about that later. But right now I am doubting so much.

And when I doubt, my symptoms get really bad. So I probably shouldn't doubt. But then the fear of misleading or being wrong is so bad.

But when I was in Greece a lot of stuff came up about childhood CSA including details of feeling hands re-dressing me after assaulting me pulling up my underwear, pulling back down a flannel blue carebears nightgown. And even though the details of the assault I felt just prior to those details were as bad as it can be without going into extreme abuse, that part felt so bad because it was a confusing mix of caretaking (dressing a child) and abuse and covering one's tracks. I processed that there.

But after this trigger for self doubt happened a couple days ago I started to doubt these memories. Well because I don't have visual memories so how would I know those things. And I don't remember those things but I had like a flashback but again. No visuals. So then I thought I must have read those details somewhere. I opened all the books I could think of where I might have read something like that in kindle and searched all the words I could think of to see if I "plagiarized" it on accident. I tried searching the forum. I don't know if it's real or fake. I hate this feeling. I wish I had not slid backward in healing but well that's the way it goes huh. 

Has anyone read any account like that anywhere? I'm sorry I know I'm deep in an EF of some sort.

[dollyvee]

Hi Armee,

I'm sorry you're struggling right now. I think not knowing, not having certainty is one of the hardest things and I wish I had an idea why that is. Maybe it's safety? If I could just put everything together then at least I could do something about it, but if I can't then I can't do anything about it, and I guess that feels like danger. This isn't in relation to what you're speaking about, but I know the feeling of uncertainty.

Sending you support,
dolly

[Chart]

Hey Armee, I'm so sorry you're struggling. Greece was incredibly positive but it for sure shook the whole pond bringing lots of sediment and things perhaps dormant to the surface. I second Dollyvee about the frustration of uncertainty. Perhaps a large part of your stress comes from this doubt? Or is it the memories themselves? Maybe both.

I have faced very similar situations: Doubting what I experienced was true and real. In one instance I confronted the person directly and not only did they deny it, they went to great lengths to prove me wrong. There were no other witnesses. I ran that over in my head for a long time. I was 13 when it happened. Today I know it happened just as I remember it.

So I can't say what I do now is the "right way". I can only say that after years of reflection, very simply I've decided to trust 100% my intuition and feelings. I've worked really hard to be aware and fair. I give myself the benefit of the doubt. I know reality is subjective, but I think it's important to believe in myself. For me it's part of self-love.

I say, in the absence of contrary information, trust what your heart, mind and soul are putting out there. You are clearly looking at the situation from ALL angles, analyzing and trying to validate. That is highly commendable. I say, good work and now trust yourself.

This is not advice (though it sure seems that way), it's just how I personally handle things like this now.

Again, I'm so sorry you're struggling. You've endured so much. You deserve a break. Unfortunately, trauma healing isn't done until it's done. We reach a plateau, rest awhile, then hunker-down and attack the next rise. We hope after each summit we'll finally touch the sky, but sadly there's often another mountain blocking our hopes.

In my opinion you are advancing forward and up fast. That's good, but it also can be exhausting. Take care of yourself no matter what "truth" you ultimately find.

Sending love, hugs and support. Wish I could do more.
 

[Armee]

Thank you Dolly Vee for the support and what you write about safety rings true to me, too.

Chart, thank you. None of that came off as advice and is indeed where I've landed many times myself and have even "preached" about to others. It is very helpful to read it in your words here. Thank you for taking the time to write it all out and to remind me too to be gentle and caring and that yes there's been a lot the past couple weeks and this is just another mountain.

You wondered if the stress might come mostly from the doubt or the memories themselves. When I had those memories they were very graphic and intense but they did not cause me distress and I believed them and dealt with them well, myself and then with T. But eventually those give rise to the doubt...I've done this before...and it is the doubt that makes me feel so ill. If I just believe I can deal with it. There are still triggers but it is not the same mental (and physical) distress as not believing myself and worrying about being wrong.

----

What triggered this...

It was Sunday, a few days ago. It's been percolating under the surface. I hadn't recognized what was happening. Well first I had a productive but intense therapy session on Thursday. I had some flashbacks during emdr not about childhood but about Greece when I was 19. Usually I get 1 small piece of information at a time separate from everything else. Maybe a pain in only one small area. But Thursday I had a full one where I saw or felt everything happening in one moment in time all at once like a movie. I think that shook me a little.

Then I had my medical appointment that went as well as could possibly be. They took such good care of me. But still there were things that I hadn't anticipated that were difficult (coming out of the sedation and being confused and amnesiac reminded me of coming to in the hotel room once the drugs wore off). So that was another difficulty on top of just the physical stress of the preparation and dehydration and not being able to eat for so long. But still I was mentally feeling really good.

Then I noticed over a few days culminating yesterday that I was feeling really bad again. Depressed, tired, bad thoughts like needing to die, being disgusting...and I traced that feeling back to Sunday.

I had finally gotten around to reading the medical notes from the procedure. In it in prep for anesthesia they had gone thru my medical records and clipped relevant portions. Asthma, allergies, and this note from when I had been referred to a neurologist. This note said she suspected "somatic disorder" (i.e. psychosomatic/hypochondriac). Now this was many years ago and I already knew this doctor's conclusion was that I was just anxious. I also have agreed with her for a long time and have talked about that all those symptoms that had cropped up leading to seeing a neurologist actually were all the physical manifestations of unprocessed trauma that went away when I got good therapy for the first time in my life. There were zero surprises there.

It's just I started to think without realizing it was chewing away in my mind that well if the physical symptoms were in my head then maybe also the mental symptoms are too (I mean...making them up, just being anxious, nothing really happened...it's just another manifestation of being a "hypochondriac" and why would I trust anything from myself). It was really just a split second thought and one I had an answer to. I know that somatic "disorder" is common with trauma because of the train wreck it has on our nervous systems and immune systems and GI and reproductive systems. I know that trauma causes these things. Not that an anxious personality causes us to think we are sick or think something bad happened. But it still was enough doubt and shame to get a toe hold in until I was doubting so much that I was looking for proof that I plagiarized my memories and am just seeking attention and am wrong and bad and stupid and disgusting and deserve to die. It takes so little to get to that point.

[Chart]

Armee, I'm so sorry what you're  experiencing. It hits hard. I know what you are feeling. All of us do. You, everyone, have their unique aspects, but yes you seem to be in full flashback. It's awful. Just awful.

It will diminish and go away. For now, all you can do is ride the wave, use thought stopping when you can, and find "anything" that will help you approach the shore. Try to go through your techniques. Try everything you know. You're permitted to now take care of yourself 100%, and no guilt. If you need close support reach out to your T, husband, good friends. Your allowed to eat whatever, sleep if you can, call in sick, whatever you need right now. Change the story that's running repeat as much as you can. Get outside if that's one of your options. Do whatever it takes. You are allowed to let all this pass. Finding "truth" / answerers / "reality" is for later. Now breath and force-feed yourself LOVE. (You need it just like all of us AND you deserve it just as much.)
Sending support, love and good energy in massive quantities.
-Chart

[Desert Flower]

Hi Armee, I'm sorry you're feeling so troubled. I wish I could say something to help and I'm not good at that, but I'll try.

if the physical symptoms were in my head then maybe also the mental symptoms are too

This sparked something in me. I don't know enough of your situation to say anything, but I know I had many many psysical complaints before I was able to look at my emotions and my feelings. And the psysical symptoms were real. They are not in my head. They are caused by an overactive nervous system, that knows nothing other than to shut me down somehow, to keep me away from the dangerous emotions and feelings. So I would say, for me, it doesn't mean these symptoms don't exist.
Just to maybe take away some of the doubt here.

And I know how dreadful it is to not know what happened exactly. I was in a situation I won't repeat here, but I just have no memory of what happened and all I can hold on to is the feeling I have that I ended up with which is disgust.

And we will not know the full truth I'm afraid. And I've been there too, trying to hold on to 'if I just do this first, if I can just figure this out, etc. But in an EF, we cannot think clear anyway. We won't get to where we need to be by thinking.

And I'm with Chart here, instead of trying to think through it, give yourself all the care and love you need and that you missed out on before and the love we're sending you will hopefully seep through a little bit too. You deserve to feel so much better and to let go of these awful feelings.

[NarcKiddo]

that part felt so bad because it was a confusing mix of caretaking (dressing a child) and abuse and covering one's tracks.

This, here, is what makes me as certain as I can be from an outside perspective that you have not made this up and you have not plagiarised something you read elsewhere. I know that dissonance all too well because I have felt it. Not in connection with CSA but in connection with the care my mother would give after physical punishment. All such care being delivered with specific verbal confirmation that she was doing this care out of love, while to me it just felt like she was covering her tracks.

I don't think you can make up that emotional feeling. If you know, you know. And you can only know through experience. My logical mind can, of course, accept that such a thing would create dissonance but cannot remotely imagine that actual feeling.

The medical procedure you have just undergone is very unpleasant (I assume it must be) and if one has been physically assaulted in the past then I am not at all surprised if the procedure triggers reactions around that past abuse. On top of that, you had the caring medical staff. Which, of course, you want - but which also is going to be reminiscent of the "care" you received in connection with the original assault.

I also wonder (thinking out loud here) if the self-doubt is maybe a part of you trying still to prevent you from remembering, so as to protect you. While others are trying to be heard. And the part trying to make you doubt all of this and conclude you made it all up may suppose that approach will cause you not to unlock the box where the memory is stored and then the memory can just sit there undisturbed. Of course that approach won't work because other parts need to be heard and anyway you have now had some of these memories.

I have no idea if any of those comments are helpful so please forgive me if not, and disregard as you see fit. I hope you can work through this smoothly and that the EF subsides soon. You have made such wonderful progress on the trip but I guess it was inevitable that some things were going to be stirred up and manifest in a way you weren't quite expecting.

Sending you very best wishes.

[Chart]

I totally agree with NarcKiddo. That surgical intervention was a trigger of the something from a deeper past...(?) And I find the conflict of doubt between different parts explanation very plausible.

Armee it might very well be you're in a string of processing traumas, one following hard on the heels of another. When it rains, it pours. But I'm going to hedge a bet: All this is actually happening now because you CAN handle it. You're armed with the good tools and right support. Your ducks are lined up. There's still some quirks and kinks to get over but this is happening now cause your ready to process and already moving forward. It's momentum.

I'm guessing you're not the kind of person who puts things off. Neither apparently is your healing brain.

Hang tough.
  

[Blueberry]

TRIGGER WARNINGS CSA AND SELFDOUBT

And when I doubt, my symptoms get really bad. So I probably shouldn't doubt. But then the fear of misleading or being wrong is so bad.

But when I was in Greece a lot of stuff came up about childhood CSA including details of feeling hands re-dressing me after assaulting me pulling up my underwear, pulling back down a flannel blue carebears nightgown. And even though the details of the assault I felt just prior to those details were as bad as it can be without going into extreme abuse, that part felt so bad because it was a confusing mix of caretaking (dressing a child) and abuse and covering one's tracks. I processed that there.

But after this trigger for self doubt happened a couple days ago I started to doubt these memories. Well because I don't have visual memories so how would I know those things. And I don't remember those things but I had like a flashback but again. No visuals. So then I thought I must have read those details somewhere. I opened all the books I could think of where I might have read something like that in kindle and searched all the words I could think of to see if I "plagiarized" it on accident. I tried searching the forum. I don't know if it's real or fake. I hate this feeling. I wish I had not slid backward in healing but well that's the way it goes huh. 

Has anyone read any account like that anywhere? I'm sorry I know I'm deep in an EF of some sort.

Armee, I'm really sorry you're in such a huge EF. You did huge healing work in Greece and then the medical procedure right afterwards - either one of those would have caused major EFs for me, including doubt. You just went through both. I'm not surprised at what's turning up now, tho I am sorry it is the case. I wish it weren't happening.

I haven't ever read an account like that before. I believe you, I believe that it all happened to you. Maybe all of you is doubting as a protective mechanism as NK suggested or maybe it's a Part or Parts. I agree with NK on the "confusing mix" making your account absolutely believable. It makes sense on a level that I'm refusing to feel into rn.

"I shouldn't doubt" you said. It's really hard to "shouldn't" about feelings. They're there, I believe they even have a purpose unfortunately. In this kind of case I could see the purpose as being showing us what still needs healing...

Usually I get 1 small piece of information at a time separate from everything else. Maybe a pain in only one small area. But Thursday I had a full one where I saw or felt everything happening in one moment in time all at once like a movie. I think that shook me a little. ...

Would've shaken me too. I'm not surprised it was that bad though because of the intensive healing work you did, it all kind of boomerangs back at us, the sheer immensity of it all till it straightens out again in our emotions, body, brain.

But it still was enough doubt and shame to get a toe hold in until I was doubting so much that I was looking for proof that I plagiarized my memories and am just seeking attention and am wrong and bad and stupid and disgusting and deserve to die. ...

Armee, you are not an attention-seeker or wrong or ... anything of those nasty things that I'm not going to write out for you to read again!! You're not disgusting either, but you feeling that way also tells me your account is true. It's a feeling I have too, especially round my own CSA stuff. Ditto the shame. Man, disgust and shame, that's what the abusers should feel, not us. Grrr.

Sending care and safe hugs. Ignore anything I wrote that doesn't fit.

[Armee]

 

Aw you all.    I unfortunately don't have time at the moment to respond individually as I have to start the morning rush to get kiddos up and to school.

But what each of you has written has been immensely helpful in lifting me out of this EF. This is the beauty of this forum. A place to go when it feels so dire inside. People who understand. People who know what to say and how to say it. Therapy is a necessary part too, but this is what helps provide relief in the moment. Being heard and validated and hearing from people who really understand.

Thank you all of you for helping me get out of that one. I haven't resolved the feelings underlying it, but I'm not drowning inside of it anymore and that's because of this forum and your individual replies here.

I know the complexity of feelings that came up with that memory can't be faked which is why the only suitable explanation that fits with the doubt that had me in it's fist was plagiarizing the whole thing down to the exact explanation of the dissonance in the experience. Trying to prove I had plagiarized it by searching every possible word in every possible book or forum was a pretty neat way to distract myself from it! 

I can say that now, because I'm not in the EF anymore. When I am paralyzed with doubt I couldn't say or feel that because that would require me to leave the door open to it being true, but doubt only says I am bad and wrong and a liar.

[Chart]

The dance with Doubt is pure torture. He steps on our toes, reverses the order of steps, has bad breath and reeks of B.O.

Down with Doubt!

Very VERY happy you are feeling better.
 

[NarcKiddo]

 

[Kizzie]

Very glad you are doing better Armee!

[Lakelynn]

Armee, Late to this thread, but scanned for the crux. It looks like this is in the rear view mirror, but I have a couple thoughts.

1. Your trip to Greece was a great step forward. It did bring a bunch of things together for you, in a new way. So your brain is now integrating all that new perspective.

2. Anesthesiology is a fraught issue. The way it affects memory is really complicated and intense. I have kept an anesthesiology "journal" of sorts, since some MDs screwed up and I became conscious during the procedure! (Yes, I complained, pursued, etc.) In addition, my daughter observed me saying and doing something outrageous under the influence. We laughed, but it was disturbing.

3. I have been privy to Dr notes over decades. Some are real jerks (thinking of a different word here) and my reality was, you go along to get along. Heaven forbid you challenge or have any real discussions because the power imbalance is so great and there's a lot to lose. It's not surprising that you would have a visceral reaction to those notes. Keep in mind, your providers are not on the front line of your healing, so THEY DON'T KNOW. That is not to excuse, but to explain their ignorance. And in reality 98% are ignorant, or misinformed.

It's likely your entire internal landscape is being rebuilt piece by piece as a result of your trip. Stay true to your power and align yourself with the providers that know you best.

[Armee]

 

Thank you Lake Lynn. This was really helpful to read. Awakens my anger to accompany my shame.

Yikes. I've read about cases of people waking from anesthesia and it sounds utterly horrifying and yes extremely traumatic. I'm so sorry this on top of so much else has been part of your story.  You are remarkably tough.

For me the anesthesiology issue is just because of being forcefully drugged during the Greece assault. Luckily I do stay under. But feeling it take effect and feeling the effects wear off are trigger cues of sorts. Luckily the anesthesiologist (femmale] was the absolute kindest person possible and held my hand and said supportive words as she did it and even sent kind little notes about being proud of me and me being strong before and after. Truly trauma informed.

But yup to docs being ignorant. I was upset with that neurologist who made that note at the time - now years ago - of the visit because my main doc had told me I should go see her. And then that neurologist made me feel neurotic for going to see her. Ugh family history of MS plus symptoms of MS makes me not neurotic to check it out. But I was hesitant to go because I had visited a neurologist in college for the same reason and he had concluded I "was just high strung." (After hearing my plans after college was maybe a PhD in forensic toxicology...my undergrad degree was in toxicology. It's a logical next step and surely he wouldn't have used that as the stepping stone toward concluding I was high strung if I had been a man...then it would have been "ambitious" maybe.

Jerks.

Anywho.

I've had yet another trigger for doubt in the past week. I am doing better just keeping it all at bay. Everything. The memories, believing, disbeliving. I'm just kind of sitting here holding the door closed for awhile.

I noticed though a couple days ago that this holding the door closed balance makes me feel very blah and blank. Just a shell going thru the motions. When I was facing it even though it's horrifying stuff I have been feeling better, more alive, more whole.

When I am truly overcoming it and healing eventually I do too much too fast in my zeal to heal that I end up with some dangerous backlash like what happened the other day (see SI section). That was a result of really feeling good and pushing myself too far with things that are triggers because I am feeling so good. But then that seems to freak out the system like I am papering over the trauma or not paying it proper respect. And just being like "I'm healed! I can move on with my life!"

When I am doubting it I feel absolutely awful. It's psychologically and physically damaging.

When I am ignoring it all and just kind of Grey rocking my self I feel blah and depressed.

So I guess the moral of the story goes back to the old backbone of CPTSD treatment and also why Greece went so well...slow and steady. Don't bury it, don't ignore it, don't charge ahead too fast.

In Greece even though it was a huge thing to face, we went slow, we went cautious. There was time there early in the first day I didn't believe myself and that part went bad but we slowed down, I listened to myself and then everything flowed well from there and major healing took place.

Lessons I keep learning over and over alongside a cycle I keep repeating over and over. And yet there is steady improvement in my mental health.

I'm approaching my 7th year in therapy in a couple months. I never ever saw that coming. I thought 3 months max. Then a year. And after that I kept thinking by the end of that year I'd be done. I'm glad I didn't stop at those points because there was so much healing left to be done. I'm glad I kept going, I'm glad T kept being there. I did quit a couple times briefly.