Psychedelic Somatic Interactional Psychotherapy (PSIP)

[SenseOrgan]

There's a therapy which didn't show up when I searched for it here. I believe it has great potential for treating (treatment resistant) Complex Relational Trauma Response/C-PTSD. It's called Psychedelic Somatic Interactional Psychotherapy (PSIP).

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Inserted after original post for better clarity:

What is Psychedelic Somatic Interactional Psychotherapy?

Psychedelic Somatic Interactional Psychotherapy (PSIP) is a medicine assisted, somatic modality that helps transform traumas held in the subconscious layers of the nervous system. The core programs that drive maladaptive behaviors and limit our capacities for joy, love, pleasure and intimacy can be profoundly processed through this work.

Unlike other medicine assisted paths (e.g. the sitter model), PSIP is very relational, dynamic and embodied. You won't be journeying through the cosmos on a solo journey. You will have somebody right there with you to help you stay in your body as you profoundly meet challenging memories, feelings and defense patterns with healing presence.

The PSIP model centers the client's autonomic nervous system's ability to integrate old traumatic material stored in the body. The medicine simply acts as an amplifier of one's innate healing capacities.

Attachment theory acknowledges that our childhood caregivers' presence (or lack thereof)  shaped the instincts that our adult relationships are built upon. In an ideal world, we all would have been given a safe, nurturing and supportive environment that lovingly honored our nature, pleasure, creativity, agency, gender, bodies, boundaries, desires and needs. Many of us were not gifted with this reality,

�In the absence of the quality of love we longed for, we developed coping mechanisms: self-abandonment, avoiding intimacy out of fear of being hurt, compulsively reaching outside of ourselves and unconsciously recreating our core attachment wounds in our adult relationships.

�The PSIP model can bring awareness to your unconscious attachment material and offers beautiful opportunities to rewire your core relational programming. More pleasure, presence and potency naturally arise within our intimate relationships with self and others when greater degrees of integration is cultivated in this work.

Source: https://www.lorinamanzanita.com/psychedelicsomatictherapy
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The focus of PSIP is to maximize the relational and autonomic healing capacity of psychedelic medicine to treat complex, childhood developmental trauma. The PSIP modality is a next generation, primary consciousness oriented psychotherapy. It focuses on the client's personal, biographical, human experience instead of aiming for transcendence or unity consciousness.

In a newsletter I got from the PS Institute is stated that: "Spiritual development cannot undo early childhood, developmental trauma such as insecure attachment. You can know the face of god while still not being able to be in a relationship." From what I understand about PSIP's application, these compounds are used to create selective inhibition: suspending self-management to access the body's innate healing mechanisms. Instead of letting the client just deal with what comes up on their own, the therapist remains engaged with them, thus creating corrective relational experiences.

I have both positive and negative experiences with the interaction with lay people while under the influence of psychedelics. From these, I'd say it has both an immense positive and negative potential to interact while defenses are lowered this way. It has been enormously frustrating to not be able to find anyone coming at it from an attachment trauma informed perspective. This is it, was my immediate response when I discovered PSIP. Unfortunately I've been waiting for a long time for it becoming available in my country or a neighboring country. It seems it's still very much concentrated in the US.

One of the pioneers of this modality, Saj Razvi, has published a lot of video's. Also from people undergoing treatment. They say more than words, but a TW is appropriate for those. Some of those are very intense.

More info at: https://www.psychedelicsomatic.org/
For video's see: https://vimeo.com/psychedelicsomatic
and here: https://www.youtube.com/@psychedelicsomatic

[SenseOrgan]

[SenseOrgan]

Adapted from: What is the Difference Between the Sitter Model and Psychedelic Somatic Interactional Psychotherapy (PSIP)?
by Saj Razvi (https://www.psychedelicsomatic.org/post/what-is-the-difference-between-the-sitter-model-and-psychedelic-somatic-interactional-psychotherapy)


The PSIP therapist is actively engaged with and a participant inside of the client's altered consciousness. Because this is trauma that the client's system is trying to excavate, it is typically a nightmare that the client and PSIP therapist are inhabiting together. The therapeutic opportunity here is incredible. Imagine entering into your subconscious mind but instead of being there alone, you are there with a trusted, skilled, caring ally who can help you navigate this space for therapeutic benefit. In fact, the PSIP therapist is trained to provide interventions that specifically deepen the client into their subjective dream state. The PSIP therapist is relying on her own experience in the psychedelic realm and a well honed intuition to enter into the subconscious mind of the client and be able to operate consistent with the rules of that non-ordinary reality.

Because there are a lot of charged memories having to do with relationship that live in the subconscious, the client's system is invited to project or transfer these historical relational roles onto the therapist as a means to make this implicit layer explicit. The client who was lacking a competent, nurturing, protective, idealized parent will project that role onto the therapist. They will see the therapist in an overly positive light. With even more compulsive charge, the client's system will need to project painful, fearful, abusive or neglectful historical roles from their relational past onto the therapist. As this negative transference is emerging, the client will expect the same treatment from the therapist as he received from his traumatizing family members. Though it may seem paradoxical, it is therapeutically relieving for this relational programing to become expressed in the session. The client might feel the therapist is being critical or judging him as being disgusting. If the client had a distant, uncaring parent, he may see the therapist as physically distant or hear her voice as being far away. The client may feel he is a burden to the therapist, or that he is wasting her time. He may even feel the therapist is overtly or secretly angry at him. The permutations of how children internalize their abusive family members and how this internalized memory becomes expressed in the psychedelic session is endless. 

The expression of this relational programming is essential for symptom resolution and it's a gift. It is an act of generosity by the therapist to allow herself to be seen by the client in these often horrific ways. While it is easy to understand the theory of how negative transference works, to actually be able to allow it without becoming defensive, reactive or dissociative will take years of personal work and training by the clinician. The human psyche is remarkably complex, and it should take years of training and personal work to be able to effectively work with it.

These powerful projections can ruin the client's relationship as they express themselves at home in powerfully unconscious ways with people who are not trained to work with them, instead of coming forth in the psychedelic container.

PSIP is designed for people who are suffering from mental health conditions such as: anxiety, panic, depression, dissociation, addiction, PTSD and other complex trauma symptoms. According to large scale research such as the ACE study, these conditions do not occur in a vacuum. The seeds of many adult mental health and even physical disease processes are planted in the highly stressful or traumatic events that occurred during childhood. The vast majority of people who enter into psychotherapy, and psychedelic treatment in particular, are doing so because of wounding they have experienced in their own family of origin which means these are complex relational traumas. Attachment, for example, is one of the most profoundly influential forces determining the course of our lives. Wounding that takes place during this sensitive period is a developmental trauma that is completely relational in nature.

PSIP is designed for people seeking psychedelics as a way to treat these mental health symptoms. As such, PSIP is a highly relational container where clients feel attuned to and in relationship no matter where they go in their psychedelic trauma process. Even if they go to a direct felt sense of profound aloneness where they feel they are floating in the empty void of space, they are still communicating the details of that world to their therapist. In so doing, their aloneness is in relationship. The therapist always maintains some level of relational tether to the client in PSIP. The assumption here is that human relational wounding requires human relational healing. A relational key is needed to open the door of relational wounding.

Furthermore, there are many human realm psychological defense mechanisms that are very active in the client's system which will not vanish just because they have taken a psychedelic substance. Directive engagement is needed to discern and work with these defenses. Clients can often loop for hours in their psychological defense when not given appropriate support that allows them to notice and move through the defense.

PSIP has interventions based on an understanding of how trauma affects human psychobiology (autonomic nervous system processing, traumatic transference & memory consolidation); it is a comprehensive somatic, trauma therapy model specifically designed for the psychedelic state.

We know trauma, we know what it does to the mind and body of mammals as well as humans. We can build actual interventions based on this understanding. We have biological reference points that we use in PSIP that tell us with predictive reliability what a client's nervous system is doing, and where it is heading and what can be done to support it. There are a whole host of variables that we are tracking and engaging with in order to support the client's organism in resolving trauma. We can do so much more than just suggesting to the client to 'trust the process' or 'take more medicine'. We can track the client's level of resource, their autonomic nervous system state, their level of dissociation, how much they are able to allow relationship or solution to enter into their nightmare, we can track their transference, we can track what secondary and primary conscious management strategies they are using to avoid their material. We can build highly relational interventions based on all of these factors.

PSIP has a unique hyper-focus on dissociation. This is because the most traumatically impactful events that have happened to people live in dissociated states. The heart of a traumatic event lives in dissociation, the pathway to resolution requires directly contacting dissociation, and treatment resistance is a result of dissociation. Psychedelics by themselves do not resolve dissociation. They do make more of our past available to us but the most significant and impactful traumas are deeply hidden away in dissociation, and these will not be unearthed just by taking a psychedelic medicine. The client's mind is designed to not notice dissociation or see what lies underneath it. The client's mind cannot engage with what it cannot see. In contrast, we can track dissociation through the client's nervous system. We can hold a somatic container to help the client stay focused on the sobriety, the blankness, the emptiness, the boredom that is a hallmark of dissociation before it will begin to crack open.

Therapeutic benefit in PSIP is primarily derived in the psychedelic session (while we have direct access to subconscious programing), integration has secondary benefits. The primary agent of transformation in PSIP is the bottom up, psychobiological shift that takes place at the level of the autonomic nervous system during the actual psychedelic session. The new learning, the new visceral reality, is experienced as the client is in his subconscious mind. Often this is a regressed state where the client's child self is directly processing and experiencing a new reality.

Resolution at the level of the autonomic nervous system may not have anything to do with insight, it may not lead to any further recovery of memory, or a clear narrative. The shifts in PSIP do not take place in the top 10% of Freud's iceberg but instead in the non-declarative, embodied, subconscious, bottom 90%.

[Secondchance]

SenseOrgan

"In a newsletter I got from the PS Institute is stated that: "Spiritual development cannot undo early childhood, developmental trauma such as insecure attachment. You can know the face of god while still not being able to be in a relationship."

I would argue with that due to personal experience, when I had a spiritual breakthrough and felt very close to God for a while. When I say close I mean to have the ability to hear Him speak, (not audibly but through my spirit) and definitely in relationship with Him in a full sense.

I would love to get that back. It says 'my sheep hear my voice' so there is a way to know it within ones spirit. Of course I cannot prove it to you.

I would not use psychedelics though due to my religious beliefs that altering the mind state is unsafe.

[SenseOrgan]

TW/spirituality

Secondchance
Excuse me if I'm too direct, but doesn't this illustrate the point? I too had an experience as was eluded too and in my daily life I still deal with developmental trauma afterwards. The experience, however profound and life changing, did not erase this. Some people use psychedelics to keep going back, effectively trying to escape the difficult "life on earth", so to say. I don't think it's constructive to attempt to spiritually bypass trauma, which I think the quote eludes to. The relationship mentioned here refers to relating to other people, which continues to be troublesome for those who had a peak experience and still deal with complex trauma.

That said, I do think I understand your longing to get the connection back you experienced. In my case it never went away entirely, which I consider the greatest gift in my life. Nowadays I try to live life at the relative level, while also honoring the absolute. For me, trauma is dealt with on the relative level. This ties in with the PSIP approach. I hope this makes sense.

[Secondchance]

SenseOrgan

I would not look to scientists, who are probably in the main, atheists,  for advice about spiritual matters. That's not to say that a scientist is excluded from them, as we do have scientists who are Christian. But I would look to somewhere that has a huge input from various sources, like the early church writings, that center on the experiential spirituality that the western church has lost. And they considered church to be a hospital for the spiritually sick.

Going back to my own experience, I did not make it clear, sorry, that I was not meaning a 'peak' experience, but for the first time, something that went on for about 18 months.

I had experienced a conversion experience long before that, and it made a long lasting difference to me, but I am still trying to make sense of these things in light of my more recent understanding of the enlightenment of what my lifelong problem has been ie cPTSD.

The later experience, was what would be called Spirit Baptism, where I had such peace and joy that I had never known before and one thing stood out regarding my lifelong painful shyness. I know I could speak in front of a crowd with ease for the first time ever. However memories are clouded and I need to be back there.

Thanks for your input.

[SenseOrgan]

TW/spirituality

Secondchance
Your experiences sound wonderful. Shyness is very painful and it must have been an immense relief to have this lifted from your shoulders. You have it in you to speak in front of a crowd with ease, that's great to know, isn't it!? I can't know if I understand where you're at right now, but I can relate to undergoing an big shift and navigating a lot of confusion in the wake of that. I'm talking about a process of many years, which never really finished. cPTSD symptoms did disappear to a significant degree for a while. What this means and how to continue from there is a highly personal quest. From what I gather from your writing, it seems to me that you're looking for spiritual support rather than psychological support, am I right? I came to the conclusion that for me, the way out is through. So dealing with complex trauma on a psychological level and prioritizing connection with others.

The main reason the earlier quote is used in the PSIP context, is to make it clear the modality does not aim to operate on the level of spirituality, in contrast to other interventions with psychedelics. PSIP deals with cPTSD type challenges on a psychological and somatic level. This does not deny the importance spirituality can have in people's lives. It may even remove barriers in that sense. But the focus in this modality is on dealing with psychological issues. In particular the kind people on this forum are dealing with. That's why I think it deserves to be mentioned here, under the "Therapy" label.

Yesterday I watched the first part of a conversation between PSIP practitioners, in which they discussed the three tiers of transformation, in which the third is the realm of the mystical, transpersonal, unity, etc. that is not worked with in PSIP. The reason for not aiming for that in this modality is that people sometimes end up "forgetting" to do the difficult work in the other tiers and the material keeps showing up until it's dealt with. Working with high dose psychedelics is inherently destabilizing, yet they have immense healing potential. So I'm really happy there are people who have developed an approach which incorporates low/moderate dose psychedelics in a psychotherapeutic modality.

[Secondchance]

TW/spirituality

Secondchance
Your experiences sound wonderful. Shyness is very painful and it must have been an immense relief to have this lifted from your shoulders. You have it in you to speak in front of a crowd with ease, that's great to know, isn't it!?

Indeed it was, for the time it lasted. In my childhood I had to avoid being seen and heard at all costs. It was just unsafe.

I can't know if I understand where you're at right now, but I can relate to undergoing an big shift and navigating a lot of confusion in the wake of that. I'm talking about a process of many years, which never really finished. cPTSD symptoms did disappear to a significant degree for a while. What this means and how to continue from there is a highly personal quest.

Indeed plenty of confusion, but your words have assisted me in the quest. I have looked into spiritual bypass and see there is some danger there, but only if one becomes passive which to me is what he enemy of our souls wants. So it is a case of working on it when dysregulated at he same time as having faith that it can be overruled when one is in grace.

From what I gather from your writing, it seems to me that you're looking for spiritual support rather than psychological support, am I right?

Both actually.

 I came to the conclusion that for me, the way out is through. So dealing with complex trauma on a psychological level and prioritizing connection with others.

The main reason the earlier quote is used in the PSIP context, is to make it clear the modality does not aim to operate on the level of spirituality, in contrast to other interventions with psychedelics. PSIP deals with cPTSD type challenges on a psychological and somatic level. This does not deny the importance spirituality can have in people's lives. It may even remove barriers in that sense. But the focus in this modality is on dealing with psychological issues. In particular the kind people on this forum are dealing with. That's why I think it deserves to be mentioned here, under the "Therapy" label.

I think I am a bit more wary of interfering with that most complex of organs.

Yesterday I watched the first part of a conversation between PSIP practitioners, in which they discussed the three tiers of transformation, in which the third is the realm of the mystical, transpersonal, unity, etc. that is not worked with in PSIP. The reason for not aiming for that in this modality is that people sometimes end up "forgetting" to do the difficult work in the other tiers and the material keeps showing up until it's dealt with. Working with high dose psychedelics is inherently destabilizing, yet they have immense healing potential. So I'm really happy there are people who have developed an approach which incorporates low/moderate dose psychedelics in a psychotherapeutic modality.

[Chart]

This is all incredibly interesting. And I feel like I'm making an understatement.

Does anyone have any ideas or experience around entering psychedelic states without the use of hallucinogens?

I often feel, during and after an intense therapy session, where crying and intense emotions arise that my systems is crammed with different chemicals and endorphins. It is a kind of "high" that can last the rest of the day. This is certainly not of the same intensity as assisted-medicine, but perhaps the same sorts of results can be achieved, though probably over a longer period of time.

[Desert Flower]

I'm afraid to take psychedelics because of bad experiences, but I think it's very interesting what you write about dissociation.

Especially:

The client's mind is designed to not notice dissociation or see what lies underneath it.

And:

The client's mind cannot engage with what it cannot see.

Thank you for pointing these out.

[SenseOrgan]

Chart
It is, isn't it? I've almost finished watching all the PSIP vids on their YT channel. The therapists who share about their experiences, both with clients and about undergoing PSIP themselves, are some of the wisest people I've come across in the healing sphere. I don't think it's just me, they are on fire when they talk about this subject. The reason for that, I think, is that they have been there and done this themselves, and experienced profound healing.

I just arranged everything for my first couple of sessions early January. So we'll see how that goes.

Have you looked into holotropic breathwork? Stanislav Grof developed it as an alternative for working with psychedelics when research became impossible due to the political backlash of the hippie era. I have a tiny bit of experience with it, but it was a long time ago. It does get you high as a kite eventually. Apart from that, I did regular breathwork a couple of years ago (Wim Hof). Especially in the beginning, consciousness definitively was altered for a short period of time. This effect faded over time, which I've heard more people mention.

I've also had some out there experiences in a meditation retreat, which isn't very rare from what I gather. The ultimate trip is what we take to be "our life" though. 

Your thought is very interesting. I too have come out the other end of a therapy session in a plethora of states. I never thought of exploiting that. I think you're onto something here. This reminds me of one of the vids, in which AEDP was also discussed by a therapist who does both that and PSIP. At some point she points out where a "traditional" session would end and AEDP continues. Great stuff! This is the video in case you're interested:

Q&A w/ Kari Gleiser & Saj: "When do you use AEDP vs PSIP?" & more | Psychedelic Somatic Institute

Desert Flower
My pleasure. They are Saj Razvi's words though. His insights into dissociation and how to connect to the material it is keeping out of experience is impressive. Selective inhibition is the modalities word for it. From what I've seen in video sessions, it's something like therapist guided mindfulness. The client is kept from going into distracting habits, which can be very subtle, and guided towards what's present. It's a gentle, bottom up process, in which awareness increases to such an extent that dissociation starts to crumble.

I totally understand how you feel about psychedelics. They are no joke. I've steered clear of them my whole life because I'm unstable. The irony of them being the one thing that prevented me from ending my life is just crazy

I'm planning to post some things about AEDP later. Are you familiar with it? I think it shares a lot with PSIP, but in the original modality it doesn't involve psychedelics. I saw on their website that they're now also looking into that too. I suspect there is a lot of overlap between the modalities (with regards to addressing dissociation).

[Chart]

Again, thanks for all this! It really means a lot to me that my ideas are supported. I discussed doing intense somatic work with my therapist. She's pretty open to everything. I've shared a lot of these threads and videos with her. She looks into everything I send her. I'm thinking more and more of experimenting with "bodily release" supported and witnessed with my therapist. I don't know why but the states I see in the videos remind me so much of myself and where I go when in intense pain. What Raj describes as "turning trauma into a memory" I very much relate to and want to try. I'm gonna try and thanks again for your encouragement, SenseOrgan.
  

[Chart]

And again, good luck to you too!!! Dare we say we just might find some real relief in 2025? 
Ps. Dina posted recently about her mdma treatment and it's developments if you haven't seen it.

[SenseOrgan]

Truly awesome to hear Chart! I'm so happy to hear you find your ideas supported and you are looking into intense somatic work with a therapist who is open to it. I can't keep count of the ways I stumbled onto the somatic route being an important part of dealing with trauma. I must admit that I have neglected to put it into practice. The only reason for it I can come up with is that I've underestimated it's importance.

I can relate. You know it's almost funny that I landed on something my body was doing on it's own in 1997 while I cried my guts out every night. I'm also reminded of that when I watch the video's. Instead of the theories I had about it at the time, it looks to me now it was just a perfectly natural way of the body to precess intense emotions. Body wisdom.

I don't want to overload you, but I feel I need to mention David Bercelli's Trauma Release Exercises (TRE) in this context. If you're not familiar with it already, it might be interesting to you to look into. There are free TRE video's on YT.

I think I'm locked out of the private section of this forum. I couldn't get to Dina's posts. Is she posting them in the private section by any chance?

Thank you for your kind words. I'm rooting for you. Let's go for it in 2025!   

[Chart]

Quick response, yes, Dina's journal is Private. You just need to ask Kizzie for access. As a forum member you have the right to this section but it has to be activated by Kizzie. I think this is the link: Or just PM Kizzie
https://www.cptsd.org/forum/index.php?topic=15993.45