One man’s narcissism is another’s C-PTSD

[Phoebes]

I've noticed sometimes if I listen to videos on "what to look out for" or "red flags" and such, many of the traits of narcissists overlap with symptoms of C-PTSD. When I hear this, I start to spiral into fear that this is how people see me.

For instance, one person's red flag to look out for to know you're dealing with a narcissist is "emotional response"- lack of eye contact and intimacy. Someone looking around or lacking a deeper response.

From a C-PTSD perspective, I feel like I struggle with these things, and I'm very aware when I'm doing it. The "trying to give responses that sound good" is really a deep sense of threat or self+consciousness about struggles with eye contact. A high sense of anxiety.

I don't know if I'm explaining myself very well. I just start feeling like is this why I struggle to connect? I'm really a narcissist like my mom? Do people misread me as a narcissist? I can feel sometimes I struggle to connect and it's usually with people I actually admire or maybe idealize. People who are doing things I wish I could do.

Between narcissism, cptsd, borderline, autism, adhd I feel like it all runs together and I get overwhelmed and feel like I am misunderstood a lot (another N trait.)

[Kizzie]

I have a quick but important answer Phoebes. If you're on here reflecting on whether you are an N or not, you're not.  N's do not show up on a forum like this because they don't reflect on their behaviours, they've typically lost the capacity to do so. And they don't care like you do about being seen as an N or trying to change, it's just not in the traits of an N to do any of that. With CPTSD, however, we are constantly reflecting, are very concerned that we don't hurt anyone, want to recover, and so on. 

[Phoebes]

Thanks, Kizzie. I get that. I am constantly self-reflecting and wondering if I should apologize for this that and the other, or improve on connection and self esteem..I know my mom doesn't care and feels entitled to throw me under the bus as evidenced by the narrative.

I just wonder though if there is a difference in the eyes of the people I care about. I think it's possible they see me that way, in some cases I care about.

I think of all of my animals. How, if I am so lucky to see them again or even now just trying to tell them how sorry I am for ways I failed them. How I wish I could do things better for them. Then I think how my mom has made it clear she isn't sorry, and she actually did do cruel things to me (whereas I'm just thinking I'd have predicted the right way and time to help my dogs better). She's aggressively told me she's not sorry and has made up a whole story about me throwing me under the bus. I just can't fathom the cruelty. But, I guess I can come across as distant and struggle to connect with friends or potential partners. My mom just wears a mask and tricks them into believing she is someone she's not. I wonder do I inadvertently do that? I feel like a fraud most of the time. Ugh.

[Blueberry]

Phoebes, I don't tend to divide people up into narcissists or not. It's become kind of a buzz word and buzz words come and go. Probably you'll find in some of my posts that I've referred to narcy so-and-so, but I don't wonder about it so much. I do know that certain members of FOO think they have to walk on eggshells around me, whereas I feel I have to walk on eggshells around the whole of nuclear FOO. So a little pot-kettle-black going on with them.

I tend to think dysfunctional instead of narc.

I too am genuinely sorry for what I did to my pets in the past or for what I neglected to do in some cases, with time I changed my treatment of them, like I heated my apt better so they were warmer. Your M is not sorry for what she did to you, nor is mine sorry for what she did to me. There's always either an excuse or a denial - like the only child of hers she ever did any wrong to was B1. Totally wrong. Once she spent ages telling me how sorry she was for neglect towards a little pet of B2's, but when I finally pointed out it was a very long time ago and maybe time she forgave herself and if she wanted she could make a donation to a rescue centre for this kind of animal, she turned on me with "at least the pet had x" (even tho not y). All this moaning and groaning about her own neglect of said pet was just an attention-seeker, specially for me.

Coming across as distant and struggling to connect is a whole lot less than going out of your way to maliciously hurt your own child.

Is there a possible way to ask those you care about if they see you that way? I know that sounds a very hard question...

[Phoebes]

Thanks, Blueberry..I like just not thinking in terms of labels. Although at times they help me understand, but it's important not to get caught up in them for sure.

I think the only people I would feel comfortable asking would be those who I know don't see me that way, like life long best friends. My best friend usually says I'm way too hard on myself.

[Blueberry]

My best friend usually says I'm way too hard on myself.

Well, there you go!

fwiw I had friends who are no longer friends due to the way they eventually thought it was quite OK to support FOO against me and/or to also say things like it was high time I got over various aspects of cptsd that they found particularly annoying/incomprehensible. These were really good long-term friends, or so I thought. But I decided to leave them by the wayside.

btw a 'trait' is not enough to be diagnosed with Narcissistic PD. I know that with Borderline PD there are some symptoms similar to or same as cptsd or some very common BPD like self-harm that also exist for some of us with cptsd, but just self-harm on its own is not enough to say i have BPD!! Tho people have suggested it in the past. I don't have BPD. I'm using that as an example because I know more off the top of my head about BPD than about NPD. IN my country BPD is a common misdiagnosis for cptsd.

Pete Walker goes into the differences between narcissism and the Fight reaction (of the 4 Fs).
Patrick Teahan https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAFyxGsnqKc does NPD versus cptsd and childhood trauma - I haven't listened to it because it's no longer one of my issues, but I like Teahan in general.

Hope some of the above is helpful.

[dollyvee]

I can second bb on BPD being mistaken for CPTSD, histrionic as well. When I was first in therapy about 25 years ago, way before anyone even acknowledged CPTSD, it was labelling someone as BPD or histrionic. At least in my case.

I feel like I've struggled with what you're describing as well, and that people perhaps misread or mistrusted me because I mistrusted myself (well, because that's what I was taught to do!), and it kept a cycle perpetuating. I know it's still an issue for me and that I feel like I do things to manipulate people, or feel like when I'm open about how I'm feeling, or needing care, there's something in me that mistrusts it and likens it to manipulation. So, that's pretty difficult to form an earnest connection with someone right there, and I can understand how they might misread that. T and I are working on this, but yeah, I think I wondered for a long time if I was perhaps narcissistic too.

[Papa Coco]

I feel like responding to everyone on this thread with a simple nod that people like us who question our own motives are the people who care the most.

I have this belief that there is a narcissist and empath in each of us. The sizes are different from person to person, but the human brain is a narcissist while the human heart is empathically connected to everyone. What makes us all unique is where our dot lands on the scale between narcissist and empath.

Phoebes, to your question as to whether people are seeing you as a narcissist, naturally I can't know the answer to that, but I can say that I doubt it. I know people who are so badly broken from childhood that they don't even point their face toward me. They look down and around. It's obviously a sign of some type of fear, and I've readily recognized that they have this problem, but I've never felt myself wanting to see them as narcissists.

Quick Story: When we bought our house in 1989, a neighbor had a grown son who I would see from time to time passing the house in a car or walking. ONE day I met him up close. It felt like I was looking at a vampire. He made clear eye contact with me, but his eyes looked like there was nobody inside his head. He looked at me, but it felt like he was looking through me.  A few years later the neighborhood was shocked when he was arrested, tried and convicted of being a serial rapist with more than 25 women as his known victims. To me, that was a case of narcissism. He did look into my eyes, but I could feel that there was no connection between us at all.

Ultimately, eye contact is difficult for me too. For me, it has to do with not feeling like I have the right to look directly into the eyes of others. It's as if I believe that everyone's better than me and looking them in the eye is an insult to them.  People seem to think I'm making direct eye contact with them, but I've learned how to look at the bridge of every nose because if I look directly into their eyes, panic strikes me. Also, for some WEIRD reason, if I look at someone in the eyes, I start to yawn...and I can't stop until I stop looking into their eyes again.

[Phoebes]

Hello, friends, I so appreciate your taking the time to respond. I've been thinking so much about your responses and just hadn't had a chance to sit down "with friends" to respond. I'm happy I can do that today after a long week..maybe I'll ramble about that in my private journal.

Blueberry, I realized I didn't comment on your story about your mom going on and on about B2, and then when you gave a reasonable response supporting HER, she snapped back. That is suck a classic move showing who has the N-traits. I have experienced very similar with mine.

I have been revisiting Pete walker, and Patrick Teagan (I just call him Patrick lol) is one of my staples. Thank you for reminding me of this.

Dolly, i totally feel like people misread me because i am glitchy. I get anxious and don't represent myself well. And the cycle of blaming myself continues. I don't know if for instance my N-mom has any thoughts like this. But the last time I tried to speak openly about the subject, being way too vulnerable to her imo, she flipped out and got defensive so I backed far away from that topic, well and then went NC. I have not been diagnosed BPD, but I was listening to Dr. mark's channed Heal NPD...which got me thinking I relate to the backstory of NPD's. And my reasons for being out of whack. (His channel is more of an empathetic ear for the narcissists, so it's less of a supportive feel, but it got me wondering if that was me).  I think it's the narcissist's projection that ruined me and baffles me the most.

Papa Coco, thank so much for your response and sharing that. You helped snap me back into reality, and also reminded me that I too feel like everything is on a spectrum of sorts, and we all have traits of this and that. I think it helps in reminding ourselves we don't have that black and white thinking narcissists seem to have. I picture the "dot" shifting and changing with each interaction and thought, too..that helps. I probably think about my behavior TOO much and that of course concerns me. lol

Your creepy neighbor sounds above and beyond and gave me the chills. I know that direct stare, almost an angry stare of "the narcissist." I believe I have that built in look away or down response because of my mother's constant angry rage-full teeth clenched aggression toward me, and I just learned if I look her in the eye and defend myself in any way there is no one there to mop up the floor when she's done.

I tend to be worst with people "in authority" or even perceived "above" me status- a teacher, a pastor, an person living their life in a way that seems out of reach to me, like artists and musicians. Someone i know I am but struggle to be. and people who I would like to know or get to know. It feels useless and hopeless when it happens because I'm not that way to my closest friends..I know intellectually that "I am worthy" and that no one is really "above" me, but the automatic response and anxiety is real.

Maybe some of these YouTube channels don't get all of this quite right and I should be more selective...stick with Patrick and Pete