EMDR Therapy

[JoannaSunshine]

Hi All,

I am new to this group, and very happy to have found a resource for information and support regarding CPTSD. I was wondering, do any of you have experience with EMDR? I have heard a little about it, but still don't know very much. I will be doing some research online to find out more, but would love to hear about personal experiences with this type of treatment if anyone has tried it. I found a counselor in my area who offers EMDR and have contacted her to see if it's something I want to try.
Are there any other specific therapeutic treatments that anyone in this group has tried that helped? I have done traditional talk therapy many times in my life, and only recently did I even get a proper diagnosis of what is going on with me. Now that I know what is wrong, and have found talk therapy only slightly helpful I am interested to know what else is out there.
Thanks for reading, I am really looking forward to participating in this discussion group!

~Joanna

[Rain]

Hi Joanna,

Welcome to the OOTS forum!  I am fairly new myself, but I have found it welcoming, informative, supportive here, and fun.

Please do go to the Introduction section and leave a post about yourself to get started.   

Nice to meet you, and I look forward to the Journey with you!

[JoannaSunshine]

Thanks Rain, I will do that.

[JoannaSunshine]

Just searched, found one post on EMDR other than my own. It was strictly a brief description of the treatment. I'll check back later to see if anyone with personal experience has responded. I'm sure there are many of us who would be interested to hear how it worked for others.
~Joanna

[Kizzie]

Here are some articles and a web site Joanna:

The EMDR Institute - comprehensive description of EMDR, how it works and list of research regarding its efficacy - http://www.emdr.com/faqs.html

Korn, D. (2009) "EMDR and the Treatment of Complex PTSD: A Review" - Available: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:7RqPLN-WsmUJ:www.traumacenter.org/products/pdf_files/Korn_JEMDR_2009.pdf+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca

Huso, D. (2010),  "Treating Child Abuse Trauma With EMDR" Available: http://www.socialworktoday.com/archive/032210p20.shtml

Forgash, C. (2002). "Treating Complex Posttraumatic Stress Disorder with EMDR and Ego State Therapy" Available: http://www.advancededucationalproductions.com/publications-articles/treatingCPSD.htm

van der Hart, O., Nijenhuis, E. & Soloman, R. (2010). "Dissociation of the Personality in Complex Trauma-Related Disorders and EMDR: Theoretical Considerations." Available: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:9vYmQoAiOhsJ:https://www.myptsd.com/c/gallery/-pdf/1-78.pdf+&cd=7&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca.

Interview with Bessel van der Kolk: "Restoring the Body - Yoga, EMDR and Treating Trauma" Available: http://www.onbeing.org/program/restoring-the-body-bessel-van-der-kolk-on-yoga-emdr-and-treating-trauma/5801

[byways]

Hi Joanna,

I was just looking and found this: Expert Answers on E.M.D.R. By THE NEW YORK TIMES  MARCH 16, 2012 3:55 PM (I don't know if we're supposed to post links here, so I just posted the title/newspaper article - you can probably just copy and paste & find it online)

I've had two appointments. I was very nervous to start both times, just because it's a new therapist. My regular T talked to the new T before my first appointment to explain a little about what's going on with me. The first appointment lasted about an hour and it was history taking and explanation of the therapy. My only homework was to think of a safe place. The next appointment was some sessions of EMDR and then some talking and more history taking. My T took notes both times.

The actual session was her waving a little wand back & forth in front of me. I was to think of one event/situation to start and my eyes were supposed to follow it the wand. Well, I got confused and thought I was supposed to stay focused on that event. After waving the wand for a couple of minutes, she would stop and say "what do you notice?" This worked well about 3 or 4 times and then I kept getting stumped about what to say to her. My mind went all over the place when it was working, lots of memories and different times of my life. Then I became kind of stumped and kind of unable to answer her.

After more of those mini sessions, we stopped and talked about the way it works and she clarified that I was supposed to let my mind go where ever it wanted - not try to keep focusing on the one event. And that the times I hesitated or stopped, I probably needed a little break. Second session lasted 1 1/2 hours.

Also important: even though I didn't quite understand how to go with the flow, and told her I hadn't read much about this type of therapy, she said it was better that I hadn't. That sometimes people get stuck on what someone else's example of EMDR sessions have been like and then expect it to go that way, and that everyone is different, everyone's brain goes where it needs to go during the sessions and there is no right way or wrong way as long as you let it happen.

T said people usually know right away whether or not it is going to work. I can't say at this point.

Maybe you want the same information I do about it and that is to hear that someone's completed EMDR therapy and that it really helped! I haven't read much of anyone's experiences with it, but I am going to continue with it unless my T tells me it's not a good idea. I have found out that insurance might not cover both types of therapy (CBT and EMDR) at the same time, but I would drop out of the CBT for a while if that happens.

Talk therapy has helped me, but not done a lot for the PTSD stuff. In fact, sometimes it makes my symptoms worse. There's never any getting better... if I feel better for a few months or years, something can trigger the C-PTSD stuff and I am back at square ONE. I have grown weary of that.

[schrödinger's cat]

I've had EMDR, and it's made matters worse. If you have any questions this post doesn't answer, just ask away, I'm more than happy to help.

I was diagnosed with PTSD. My therapist gave me a bit of talk therapy. Venting felt good, because I had no one at all I could even talk to about those things. But it didn't much resolve matters. I think I might have eventually worked through my issues with talk therapy alone, but it would have taken me a long time.

She gave me grounding exercises to use during and after EMDR. The idea was, EMDR brings up old traumatic memories and feelings, so those exercizes are supposed to help calm you down again afterwards. One was visualizing a safe place. It didn't work. Visualizing a safe place essentially helps you tap into the sense of safety you had "before the trauma". This is NOT going to work as intended if you never were "safe before the trauma". My trauma wasn't just one isolated incident. My trauma was my day-to-day life starting at an age when I was still a toddler. I was never able to build a sense of safety to begin with. So there's nothing I can tap into. Whenever I had successfully visualized a safe place, the mental image of it would change and become unsafe again, even life-threatening. I told my therapist, but she didn't comment.

Another grounding exercise was visualizing yourself as a tree. That was supposed to let you tap into your own inner resilience and strength and stability. Which I didn't have, for the same reasons. That exercize didn't work either. I felt like, "yup, I'm a tree... so what?" - because my traumatic experiences have taught me that it doesn't matter how strong you feel, or how powerful and serene and eternal: the * stuff is going to hit you regardless. I told my therapist, but she didn't react. She didn't comment on it. She didn't give me any alternative exercizes. Those were the ones that officially work with PTSD, she'd diagnosed me with PTSD, so business as usual it was.

So I did my first EMDR session without having any way of calming myself down afterwards, because things that apparently calm PTSD survivors didn't calm me.

My therapist told me to choose a memory of "a milder traumatic incident". That's another concept that applies to PTSD, but not to CPTSD. Someone here said their therapist said that CPTSD is like a bowl of spaghetti. Everything's tangled up with everything else. I don't have "milder traumatic incidents". After all, CPTSD is caused by a repetition of traumatic incidents. It would be like asking a victim of Chinese water torture to remember "one milder traumatic water droplet". Or to ask someone who has a strain injury on their wrist caused by typing too much every day to remember "one milder traumatic typing task". The thing that was so traumatic wasn't even WHAT happened every day, but THAT it happened every day, every month, for years on end, without my being able to stop it or escape.

Anyway, I tried my best. I recalled one incident, and my therapist went tapping away on my knees, left, right, left, right. She asked me: "Does anything come up yet? Any visual memory? Anything you heard, or any memory of touch? Any smell?" Nothing of that sort came up. Instead, what came up was a powerful, overwhelming feeling of being cornered, of being directly threatened and attacked. I panicked and said: "This isn't working. We'd best stop this. It's not working. It's best if we stop." (Which isn't precisely a measured and calm response - I was clearly panicky.) My therapist said: "Okay, then we'll just talk about something else", and she changed the subject to... I don't even remember what it was. Something about my coping skills in day-to-day life, where she wished me to apply Cognitive Behavioural Therapy methods. There was NO 'calming exercise'. She'd have done them if I'd had a PTSD flashback. Since my flashback was an emotional flashback and not a PTSD one, she didn't realize at all that I was flashing back. Even my obvious signs of panic and distress didn't change that. No visual/auditory/other sensual memories = no flashback. I was hyper-vigilant and triggered for three days after that, and getting back to normal took me about two weeks.

So if you do EMDR, make sure your therapist knows REEEAAALLY well what your flashbacks are like. Make sure she'll pay a LOT of attention to you during and after the exercize, and that she's able to SEE if you're upset. If the grounding exercizes or resource work don't work for you, do NOT agree to an EMDR. Simply bringing up old trauma is useless. What you need is a way to metabolize them. Unless you have that, agreeing to EMDR is simply just agreeing to let your therapist trigger and maybe retraumatize you. Do NOT let that happen, no matter how self-assured she feels. This involves your personal safety. You have every right in the world to ask questions and to say no.

Another thing to consider is, many people with CPTSD were traumatized by people in authority who were supposed to take care of us, but who were either unable to see our distress or who chose to ignore it. So being triggered by your therapist will open THAT can of worms, too. It pretty much ruined therapy for me. Things were so bad afterwards that going to see a therapist, a GP, a dentist, even just a hairdresser, it's all triggering if I'm having a bad day. This isn't to say that EMDR doesn't work. But please make sure you're safe.

EDITED TO ADD: yikes, that was a bit doom and gloom... my experience was a bit on the extreme side, and I'd hate for anyone else to have the same thing happen to them. Anyway: hi, Joanna, and welcome to the forum! I hope you'll find it as helpful as I do. 

[JoannaSunshine]

Thanks for your responses! It definitely sounds like EMDR is hit or miss in treating CPTSD. That's in line with what I have read so far. Apparently the T needs to have done some additional training to be able to use this technique for those suffering from CPTSD. From what I read Cat, your are right. The fact that the flashbacks are usually emotional and not visual or auditory make the treatment very different for people with CPTSD.
I will be sure to have an in depth discussions with this new T about whether or not she has any experience using this type of therapy for patients with CPTSD. It sounds like the treatment varies wildly in effectiveness depending on the person, their receptiveness and the skill of the T.

At this point I feel like I just need to be doing some sort of therapy to help me cope with my symptoms. I was very disappointed with how things ended at the therapy center I had been going to. I had an amazing counselor who was really helping me, I worked with her for a year and then they fired her for some unknown reason. I was unable to even say goodbye to her, which brought up some abandonment issues for me. We had really been on the cusp of a big breakthrough I think. Just a few months before that, the T who was running my DBT group decided to start her own private practice and left the center. She had been such a wonderful mindfulness teacher, and so accepting and never judged anyone for what they were going through. She always said that if you are frustrated because you feel you aren't making progress, to remember that even making tiny changes to the way you think or the way you cope is progress. Every time you use a new coping skill, or even just choose not to go back to old ineffective coping mechanisms you are reinforcing new neural pathways. Rewiring your brain a little at a time, and it is ALL progress! She always made me feel like I was moving forward.
Anyway, I guess I just want to feel like I am getting help. Like I have people who understand what I'm going through, and know how to support me in coping better. It may not be EMDR that will achieve that, but I do need to get back in some sort of therapy.

My problem right now is the coping mechanisms I developed as a teen to deal with the disorder I didn't even know I had. I learned to become very emotionally detached, to put up thick walls and not develop strong bonds with others so they couldn't hurt me. This leaves me with very few close relationships, a lot of the time I feel lonely and long for more meaningful interactions with others. The most unhealthy way of coping I developed? Smoking pot to relieve the depression and anxiety that plagued me. When I was younger, getting high helped me survive what I was going through. It shuts down my emotions to the point that I don't have EFs most of the time (except if I'm truly triggered), but also leave me numb. That was acceptable to me as a younger person. Now that I am older, and a mother I have a responsibility to learn how to cope for real. I need to show my son how to deal with emotions, not suppress them. I also feel that the fact that I have been "shutting down" my emotions for the last 16 years has only masked the problem and not allowed me to process the traumas that cause my EFs. I thought maybe with EMDR I can rewire my brain, process some of the trauma and lessen my dependence on marijuana to cope. It's hard, I want to stop but it's the only thing that helps me. Traditional meds have never been effective, but smoking weed has become not so effective recently as well. I'm noticing more side effect like foggy thinking, memory loss, and even the fact that it numbs my emotions is not really helpful anymore.

I hope I can figure this all out, for the sake of my son (and myself too). I just want to give him a good life, and a good childhood. So far I'm doing much better than my BP M ever did for me and my brothers and sister. But I worry that my drug use and my struggle with CPTSD will effect him negatively, just the same way my Ms illness did to me. I feel a lot of shame about my addiction, and even just my inability to properly cope in general. I hope I will not be judged harshly on this forum for admitting to my dependence on marijuana. I usually would not discuss it with anyone, it is very personal and I feel like it is deeply tied to my disorder. So most people don't understand it, don't understand why I can't just stop. Ugh, it's all so confusing and discouraging at times. Anyway, thanks so much for sharing your experiences with EMDR byways and Cat. Gives me something to think about as I figure out what is next for me on my journey of healing. I just need to remember what my DBT teacher said, baby steps-even the smallest changes are progress. I have come so far, I need to remember that and acknowledge the amazing progress I have made in the last 10 years. When I think about it in the right context, I'm actually pretty proud of where I'm at.

[Kizzie]

Hi JS - just wanted to add to what Cat said.  I had a very similar experience with EMDR, went for 4 sessions and had major panic attacks or EFs that lasted for several days after each one.  It does appear to work well for PTSD but needs to be tailored to CPTSD and if you read any of the links above, integrated into a staged recovery process which involves a theraputic alliance ( e.g., Relational therapy). 

I have no problem with the idea of using cannabis if it helps get through the defences and into whatever dark place my IC is hiding.  Actually, there are a number of clinical trials going on to investigate its use with PTSD and with other drugs - don't have the link right at hand but just Google MAPS and clinical trials that should get you there.

[JoannaSunshine]

Thanks Kizzie, it's nice to hear someone speak with an accepting attitude when I admit to self medicating with marijuana. Most of the time I spent in therapy I was seeing drug counselor because my T was concerned with my drug use. Although I use it daily, and have not been able to go more than 48 hours without "medicating" I have never felt I truly fit the addict classification. I received a good deal of judgement from the Ts at the center I was going to, and that was in part why I stopped going to therapy there.

I have read about studies concerning cannabis and PTSD, and also psilocybin being used to treat PTSD. I find these studies interesting and they give me hope that there will be more breakthroughs in the future. Especially the psilocybin study, they showed some REALLY promising results in lab rats.
Though most days I feel like a criminal and a bad mom for smoking. I quit smoking cigs, quit all the other drugs I used to partake in when I was younger, I don't even drink coffee! And yet, I feel a lot of shame surrounding what I perceive as my addiction (or what I have been told is my addiction). It's almost paralyzing at times because I have such a strong urge to medicate and push away the difficult and painful emotions I feel on a daily basis that seem to come from nowhere at all. It's such a struggle in my mind - that it helps me deal with my emotions, but may just be repressing them, and anyone who is expected to be a normal and responsible adult SHOULDN'T be doing this! It's one of the worst judgements I have towards myself, and one of the few SHOULDS that still plague my brain.
I am working on practicing acceptance in this area of my life, and hopefully with more acceptance/less judgement my anxiety and pain will decrease, as will my need to smoke. I'm hoping that a recreational marijuana use bill in my state will pass this Fall, at least then I won't feel like a criminal.

[Kizzie]

When I met the first time with my addictions counsellor, he did not bat an eye when I told him how much I was drinking and that I was hiding in my closet (which I was doing early this year).  That went such a a long way to dissolving my shame. And we focused on why I was drinking rather than the drinking itself and that took me the rest of the way into being open and staying sober.

He told me that he thinks his field goes astray by treating addiction as the problem, rather than treating the the underlying reasons for the addiction which tends to take care of the problem and I agree. It's like "Quit drinking, come to sessions and we'll work on some strategies for dealing with stress and emotions, and go to AA" and that's about where it stops. But with my counsellor, I had this place I could go where we could talk openly about my need to numb myself, to relieve the anxiety and fear I was feeling.  It just wasn't shameful and I came to understand and accept why I had become addicted. I ended up feeling a lot of compassion for myself when there had been a lot of shame and disgust.   And I was able to take responsibility for my drinking because I understood why I had gotten into it, it wasn't that I was weak or evil or whatever, I had a problem I just didn't know how to deal with and booze numbed all the pain. 

Being able to be open and compaasionate made all the difference in my recovery so I am accepting when I read that others are self-medicating. I know why I did it and honestly at the time I just didn't feel like there was any other way to get through the day.  You write in your post that you know why you're using so there's no denial on your part. It sounds instead like you haven't found a way to help yourself deal with all the pain yet. And you seem to know  intuitively that acceptance will take some of the pressure away so    as you make your way to that! 

[schrödinger's cat]

What Kizzie said. I think most people who point fingers and go "whaaat, you smoke / drink / self-harm / dissociate / blabla, you bad evil symptom-riddled person you" - they have the luxury of not knowing just how overwhelmingly hard it is to live with CPTSD. It's like blaming a person for screaming when their leg's broken.

[JoannaSunshine]

I am so overcome with relief to hear it put that way Cat, you are right. I really believe I would not have survived my teen years when my symptoms were at their worst without smoking pot to cope. It has worked for me for a long time. Though I do agree with some of what I learned in therapy about my drug use - that it is not benefiting me as much as it used to. There are other healthier coping mechanisms I could be using. It's going to take time, and self love and acceptance to get to the point where I can cope sober. I'm learning ways to self soothe and take better care of myself every day. Someday I hope I won't need to rely on it so much anymore.

[CrystalB]

Hi, all.  I'm new here and it is good to hear voices who share my journey.  The healing road is HARD WORK! I have been doing EMDR along with cognitive therapy since 2012, with EMDR spaced out among the cognitive therapy.  This last time through EMDR wasn't as hard as in the beginning because I am further along in treatment now.  We strategies to do EMDR when we are able to meet a minimum of three times per week as big dreams and awakening with new realizations cause extra anxiety, and we keep doing it until the stress is diminished.  The long term results are worth it, but it is the hardest work I have ever done. 

I do want to let you know I understand the self-education with alcohol.  I did this for the longest.  I was able to quit, but just like making medication adjustments, it was very difficult at first no longer having it to dull the pain.  I get it.  It was after I was able to quit that I experienced larger gains.  I had to find something to replace the alcohol, and I discovered art and construction.  Now I work out a lot of self-healing through diversions which took the place of alcohol.  Some have had the gall to point out art and working on my home are new addictions, but hey, my house looks great and I have a new sense of mastery. 

Best to all on your healing journeys! Forward! No matter how small the step may seem, one foot in front of the other.  There is a brighter future for us all.

[spryte]

Well, hearing Cat's story about EMDR, I don't feel so bad about my EMDR therapist leaving before we could really get into it. Lol, I would have had no idea back then how or even that I needed to, check to see if she had any experience with c-ptsd.

Joanna - gah, I just want to hug you for so many reasons.

It's almost paralyzing at times because I have such a strong urge to medicate and push away the difficult and painful emotions I feel on a daily basis that seem to come from nowhere at all. It's such a struggle in my mind - that it helps me deal with my emotions, but may just be repressing them, and anyone who is expected to be a normal and responsible adult SHOULDN'T be doing this! It's one of the worst judgements I have towards myself, and one of the few SHOULDS that still plague my brain.

I don't know if you know this, if you've had any experience at all with anti-depressants, but that's EXACTLY what they do and it's why I got off them. They "help" you deal with emotions, by flattening out the emotions, making them not so strong. In the beginning, I was like...hey! I feel awesome! Who needs to go to therapy? There's nothing bothering me! What are we going to even talk about??! And then, as time went on, I noticed that my emotional range was feeling flatter and flatter (think of it visually like spikes and valleys, like a heart rate read out) which scared the crap out of me because that feeling was entirely too much like the dissociation that I'd worked hard to get out of, so I took myself off of them.

My point is, the only reason people feel bad about self-medicating is because they've been MADE to feel bad about it. Meanwhile, doctors write scripts all the time for "legal" drugs that do the exact same thing. I have two friends right now who are on legally prescribed xanex. Doses so high that if either of them ever try to get off of them, well...it will probably be impossible. Their anxiety has gotten WORSE on the drugs, I think because it's messed their systems up so much, and they've depended on them without therapy for years.

I HATE the stigma around marijuana. Medical marijuana is going on our ballot this November, and I can't WAIT and am crossing all my fingers and toes that it goes through, and then that the way that the law is written that I will be able to get a script for my anxiety, because it does help.

I was in your shoes for a long while though, with the complete self-medicating. I smoked...a lot. The only time I wasn't smoking, was at work. And it wasn't until after I stopped smoking that I saw how much I was self-medicating. I quit for a few years, and now only use it in moderation to help with my anxiety.

I have gotten the same exact reaction from therapists, so I don't even mention it now. I go to a community mental health center and they all have specific ways of identifying and treating addiction. The minute you even mention an illegal substance, it's labeled as "abuse" and "addiction" which is just ridiculous.

It has worked for me for a long time. Though I do agree with some of what I learned in therapy about my drug use - that it is not benefiting me as much as it used to. There are other healthier coping mechanisms I could be using. It's going to take time, and self love and acceptance to get to the point where I can cope sober. I'm learning ways to self soothe and take better care of myself every day. Someday I hope I won't need to rely on it so much anymore.

It sounds to me that you've been doing what you could to deal with really painful emotions and now you're getting to a point where you're stronger, and more able to step away from that and learn "different" not necessarily "healthier" coping mechanisms and start addressing the things that hurt.

I went through this same process, although not with substances. I'm just as addicted to diversions and distractions and for years I used them to numb out too...and it's only been recently that I've felt strong enough to step away from them and start really addressing what hurts.

It's all good! You got nothing to be ashamed of girl! (the care and worry that you show for your son here is way more than my mom ever showed for me, and she didn't use any kind of substances...soooo...)