HIghly Sensitive People and Empaths

[tired]

I think I am.  dunno.
I think I was always a thinker.  I always observed people and I was curious and I also didn't bond with my parents which made me independent somehow...
and for these reasons I think I was able to survive and make it to this place right now. 

I also had to read a lot and go through 30 years of therapy off and on, mostly on, and I'm guessing I learned a couple of things. 

When I was a kid I remember wanting to understand people and help them so maybe that's just part of me. But I also wanted it to be subtle, without a lot of hoopla, so I directed my energy towards a quiet way of helping. I'm also the kind of person who in general likes to figure things out and in doing so,  I tend to look for the root of the problem.  The root of the problem for people is really the fact that we are all on this rock,  hurling through space for unknown reasons.  That means we all are in the same boat.  Thinking that way is bound to make me have compassion for everyone.

[woodsgnome]

Chairmanmeow wrily observed:

"Empathy is learned thru our own suffering and vulnerability...and some of us have been unfortunate enough to be over acquainted with ourselves in a world that encourages sociopathic behavior."

Probably the best motto I ever ran across was "Fortitude in Distress." I was familiar with its use by the voyageur/canoemen of early Canada, who were heroes of mine.  I've needed to remember it many times when I'd give up hope of ever finding my own route through life's rapids.

And yet there's so many daily messages, as charmanmeow points out, to be obnoxious, win at all costs, that sort of daily shouting mass media thrives on. Those messages in turn have been co-opted by even religious people's example of get yours, it's what the deity wants for you. Huh? No vulnerability in that, just walk over people and take advantage.

The counter to the meanness is empathy, as we somehow survived all that and came out really caring for life even more, because we'd been in the hopeless dark so long.

Some call this a sort of gift bestowed by cptsd. Please, no--who of us would ever voluntarily accept such a gift. It's only by accepting our vulnerability that gets us through, not by some gift wrapped in the hatred and cruelty we were exposed to.

[chairmanmeow]

Ahh but it is a fact that suffering is unavoidable to be part of this world, to inflict it and to receive it. Its the way of life and minimizing it one can say is a responsibility we all share.... Its neither a gift or a curse, just a understanding every human being is hurling toward every minute they continue to exist. Its unavoidable what really makes a person exceptional is how we handle the one thing we do control, and thats our own way of looking at it and our attitudes. So while some turn at all costs to avoid the unavoidable suffering and build delusions others can accept the nature of affairs and in turn become empathetic and some of the finest most understanding people to grace your company. Everything is earned in fire when it comes to humanity, Id rather have open eyes and independent thoughts and be able to enjoy my problems, then be unlucky enough to never see misfortune and run like a child thru this world selfish and never understanding the things that matter. Im no fan of tragedy but if you embrace it in the right way you can learn a lot.

[Dutch Uncle]

I still have the question: "What's an empath?"

I might well be just me, but if somebody would introduce him/herself, or later in the development of a friendship/work-relationship or any other relationship, as being an "empath", I would most definitely run. At least emotionally.
It sounds like a mindreader. Meaning: they know me better than I do.


Not too long ago I learned (through somebody who had done his PhD on empathy) that empathy involves knowing that one can never fully feel, sense or know anybody else. Ever.
Empathy involves feeling, sensing or thinking how another might experience, or has experienced, a certain event. But one always keeps an open eye, and/or mind, that something else, or something more, or something completely different is the case.
This was a real eyeopener for me, probably due to the fact that I have for a long time been in close contact with two people who I now consider to be Histrionics, for which one of the diagnostic criteria is "considers relationships as much more intimate as they in fact are". Well, knowing what the other really feels/thinks (and consequently rebuking the other (me in this case) for not being in contact with himself) is pretty much a hallmark of being "too intimate", I'd say.
I know for a fact these two people consider themselves to be very empathic.
I've now learned they are most probably not.
And I dare say, for me empathy has always been a synonym for bonding, but these two individuals do not want to bond with me, but me to merge with them. And bonding ≠ merging.

And I also dare say quite a few more people I meet confuse being empathic with having 'to take it all in' (either them taking you 'in', or you having to take them 'in'). It's perfectly possible to be empathic with somebody, when you don't have a clue on what's really at hand.


As for the Highly Sensitive: yes I consider myself to be pretty High Sensitive, but I'm also pretty aware that quite often I'm more being Highly Vigilant, instead of Sensitive. My sensitivity from outside stimulus is at those time actually impaired. True, that impairment is caused by a high sensitivity before the advent of an EF for example, but when the EF takes 'hold' of me, it's pretty much over with my 'High Sensitivity'.

[Dutch Uncle]

Apath and sociopath responses shut you up, and how! An empathic response lets you feel your feelings without judgment.

Thanks for providing context. 
Now I get it. Apath, sociopath and empath. 

[tired]

I consider myself to be empathetic because I tend to consider what people are feeling and I try to draw conslusions to the best of my ability based on what they say and how they look or whatever.  I mean I can't read minds I just have the interest. If I think they don't want to listen to me act empathetic or if they don't want to talk to me, I don't impose.  I avoid human contact most of the time anyway.  Also, if I think I know what the other person wants it doesn't mean I act accordingly.  Sometimes I get anxious and I ramble on and on even though I get a clear sense that the other person is trying to get away.  It's like watching a bad movie.  I probably come off as an idiot I have no idea.

I'm also highly sensitive in that I jump to conclusions about what people are doing or thinking and I react emotionally. I suppose I am sometimes right even when I'm anxious but I'm very often wrong and even though in that moment I sense I could be wrong, I still react the way I react.

I don't believe in mind reading.  I don't believe that I can tell anything about a person by looking  at them.  I sometimes watch people at the gym and just as a game, I imagine what kind of person they are and make it seem plausible. Then I arbitrarily try to imagine they are a completely different kind of person and that also seems plausible.  It's only when I start to talk to someone and hear what they say about themselves that I feel like I know a person.  I guess that's not really mind reading, just listening.  and people lie and sometimes i can tell.

[arpy1]

hum.. i just did that HSP self test that there was a link to back on this thread. i also read a bit of the research the lady quotes. how amazing it is. i laughed at myself cos i scored 23 out of 27.  no surprises there then, no wonder i am such a mess!

seriously, though, i am fascinated by this thread becos it opens to me a train of thought - one that might give a hint of a beginning of an answer to the question why i am the way i am.  why i have crashed so badly and why i just can't seem to recover as quickly as i used to in the past.  i guess simply, i have gotten completely overwhelmed. too much pain for too long with no escape. surprisingly that isn't as depressing a thought as it might appear.

for me, empathy is both a noun and a doing word. a noun becos it describes the way i seem to always need to penetrate beneath the exterior, the visible, and to sense the way the inside is running. if that makes sense.
a doing word becos to me, once i have seen, i want to act. not that i always can or do, but that is the urge. i always want to alleviate, to help, to heal, to affect positively.

i don't see it as good or bad, i think it's a neutral quality. simply a trait. and the research i note above seems to explain how that could be.
i can't help being this way, i just always have been. it has brought me an untold wealth of pain so it is a coin with two faces. the other face is that i can find deep joy in small and sometimes hard to spot things. 

i always felt i just feel everything too deeply. now i know that i do.  quite freeing, actually.

[MaryAnn]

Hi Southbound!

Your definitions of each below and the examples to represent them are spot on.  I love the way you are able to present things with such clarity and make it entertaining!  A talent that I definitely do not have.  But Dutch Uncle is also able to make sense of things while presenting it in a light hearted way as well.

Southbound:

It's not like that, Dutch Uncle. Sympathy is to feel for; empathy is to feel with. You've empathized with a number of posts of mine here. All it means is someone who 'gets' it.  Example: you're sitting beside someone who's talking about her sad feelings, and she stops because she's choked up. An apath (one who doesn't care) would change the subject quickly ("Just look at that sunset!"); a sociopath (who likes hurting people) would call her a pussy; while an empath would just sit with her and wait for her to make the next move (eg. grabbing you for a hug in floods of tears) or say the next words... which could be pretty much anything.

Apath and sociopath responses shut you up, and how! An empathic response lets you feel your feelings without judgment.

As someone who has been around PD's all their life and has a FOO and In-Laws as well that are either Apaths, Narcissists, and Sociopaths, Empathy is the one thing that I think I came away from it all with.  I learned to be attuned to my family and start looking for the underlying causes, reasons they were the way they were, and try to relate to it for survival.  There are only 3 people that I was never able to figure out - My Father, His Sister, and my Uncle's Wife.  There is no indication of any trauma that they ever suffered.  The only thing I can figure is that they were spoon fed and treated so special by their parents that they came away feeling superior, truly entitled, and ability for empathy for anyone, only cared about themselves and their own selfish interests, agendas. 

I also like the description from Dutch Uncle:

Empathy involves feeling, sensing or thinking how another might experience, or has experienced, a certain event. But one always keeps an open eye, and/or mind, that something else, or something more, or something completely different is the case.

That is an excellent description.  An Empath is not a mind reader.  All you can do is try to really relate to a person based on your own past experiences and how you would feel if you were in their shoes.  Brene Brown is an resource to read about empathy versus sympathy.  I never really thought about it until I listened to one of her TED talks online, but sympathy really isn't a good thing.  Sympathy is really kind of a downer, it says that you feel sorry for someone but you don't really relate to what they are experiencing.  Where empathy says that you are listening and making the effort to understand and offer support to person.  Help them not feel alone and validation of the feelings they are experiencing.  It is much more comforting.  However, it is something that we are seeing less of from people as a result of social media.  The younger generation is not learning the same communication skills and are actually more isolated as result.  They find it hard to relate to other people face to face and do not really understand what empathy is.  I see it many times at work.  The younger ones are either very happy and empathetic or they are the other extreme and do not care about others and have no empathy.  It makes me sad because it feels like they are more robotic than an actual person.

Anyone that makes a regular habit of hurting you in the process of trying to seem empathetic is not an empathetic person at all.  It is a Narcissist or Histronic trying to present themselves in a different color, appear to be something they are not.  At the end of the day, they are lying to themselves and in the process of hurting others, in the end they are hurting themselves the most.  My parents have no friends, no life, do not even like each other.  They fight all the time and we truly fear that they will be on the 6 o'clock news sometime because one will kill the other.  I can't do that, I don't fight at all.  Because of them, I am anti everything they are.  I am starting to understand that and working to develop the true self I was meant to be.

I am also highly sensitive and hypervigilant.  I am very aware of it and I take things that are said, not said, or done in many cases much harder than I should.  I let these things hurt me and start obsessing about what is wrong with me (sorry, dutch uncle) and starting thinking I am the worst person in the world, nobody likes me, etc...  I have many people that I associate with work and probably would be supportive but I have too much fear of trusting anyone with what I am going through and risking anyone finding out and how the majority would treat me as a result.

This is a great thread!  Reading through it has helped me feel better today!

MaryAnn     

[Butterfly]

It's important to remember not to confuse HSP and being an empath with empathy. They are very different things. Empathy and being able to feel for others is one thing, but being HSP and empath takes empathy to a whole new level. In my case I don't consider it a blessing at all nor do I personally consider it balanced 'normal' empathy. It goes far beyond the commonly accepted way of interacting and relating to others.

An empath picks up many non verbal cues others completely miss. Others emotional state floods your mind and heart. A room full of people is overwhelming. Body movements, minor facial expressions imperceptible to others, even someone's personal odor. You very literally pickup on others energy. It's not in the imagination and it's not in ones mind. Casually asking someone how they are or what's new confirms what I already had picked up. Their conversation confirms their emotional state.

For me being empath was, and still is, rooted in survival.  As a child having my mother enter a room and be able to pick up on her emotions without a word or so much as a look in my direction was critical to my survival. Being that much in tune meant the difference between . . . Well let's just leave that sentence there. Do I exit the room now while I still can? Do I stay and take my chances? Is this a minor blip I can help her smooth away or will this require more effort? How much will I have to fix her before I get to eat? Will I be able to eat? If I do eat will I be able to hold the food down? Being able to read her meant my physical life.

It was because there was no boundary between where she ended and I began, there was no "me" and there was no "her" - we were we. I was her emotional storage place. It was my job to take all her emptiness and make it better. Take her bad emotions as my own and give her all my good emotions. This is her expectation to this day. Therefore with everyone else in the world I met I didn't know where they end and I begin.

An empath cannot turn it off, cannot stop. The emotions and energy transfer and become part of you. Friends and family walk away feeling better but I was left feeling physically drained and in bed for sometimes days. It takes effort and training to know when to let others emotions in, how much to let in, how to process that emotion as someone else's and not your own. It is difficult, very difficult. The tendency is to build walls because just a little crack opens the floodgates. I have to manage my entire life flow.

There was some discussion about this early on here at OOTS and I'll see if I can find the link.

[tired]

Butterfly:  that made me think-- yes I am highly sensitive and I notice a thousand things in my environment but I also tune out a great deal. And I misinterpret things due to anxiety in the moment. I am hypervigilant but that doesn't make me see things as they are. Once I talk to a person and hear what they say it gives a meaning to all the things I had observed.

[arpy1]

butterfly what you write  is so helpful

An empath picks up many non verbal cues others completely miss. Others emotional state floods your mind and heart. A room full of people is overwhelming. Body movements, minor facial expressions imperceptible to others, even someone's personal odor. You very literally pickup on others energy. It's not in the imagination and it's not in ones mind. Casually asking someone how they are or what's new confirms what I already had picked up. Their conversation confirms their emotional state.

exactly. and i think this is probably the reason i had to self isolate so completely. even from the last couple of friends who really weren't bad, they were lovely, but they made me feel overwhelmed just by being with them.  i couldn't understand why and feel guilty that i have just 'dumped' them. but i had to.

It was because there was no boundary between where she ended and I began, there was no "me" and there was no "her" - we were we. I was her emotional storage place. It was my job to take all her emptiness and make it better. Take her bad emotions as my own and give her all my good emotions. This is her expectation to this day. Therefore with everyone else in the world I met I didn't know where they end and I begin.

yes, that's it exactly. this was my marriage. and to one degree or another all of my relationships, if i'm honest. i only realised recently that it was allowed for me to have personal boundaries. i am trying to learn and beginning to understand but i really don't have any practice at having my own personhood as distinct from others'.  i never did it before.  i don't understand enough yet to be able to do it properly.

and you're right, you can't turn it off. i am actually finding it so much more comfortable being as near alone as i can make it (excepting my kids and even that i find hard), that i worry a bit that when the time comes to re-engage with the world i shall just choose not to. becos truth is i don't really want to.  you say

I have to manage my entire life flow.

i think i have just cut off from mine completely. i know it can't be right, but i can't bear the idea of having to start it up again and get overwhelmed all over again.

would be glad of that link to previous, if u find it, might be helpful.

[Butterfly]

It's tough, I understand. Hopefully you can get to the point where although it can't be turned off it can be controlled. I don't want to be cold hearted and I don't want to isolate myself. I'm learning to take time for self care along with boundaries and feel better these days. It's a long way from where I want to be but it's a journey.

Here's the other link http://outofthefog.net/C-PTSD/forum/index.php?topic=546.0

I hope it helps.

[arpy1]

thanks, that was a very interesting link. i can't believe how i never saw myself this way before; it explains a lot. it's come as a bit of a relief actually.

[I like vanilla]

I am an empathic HSP.

There might be a correlation between empaths and HSP and CPTSD, but I would suggest that there is also an intervening variable(s).

It is my understanding, for example, that in an abusive family, the brunt of the abuse falls upon the HSP and/or empathic child. Those on our end of the temperament scale tend to be conscientious; to notice when others are 'off', while also having a difficult time conceiving of those who are so different than us (those who are so easily able to abuse others), so being to 'understanding' of abusers (read we make excuses and try harder where it is not warranted);and to want to be helpful. We are often also gifted in some way. The factors make us favourite targets of bullies, narcissists, psychopaths, and others of their ilk. If we grew up getting the worst of the abuse in the abusive home then we are even that much less able to defend ourselves against those who would do us harm outside our FOOs.

So, we are not so much more likely to get CPTSD as we are to be subjected to the conditions that could lead to a person getting CPTSD.

The good news is that as we learn to value ourselves, learn to make boundaries, and learn to be assertive about our wants and needs (both to ourselves and to others) then we become less vulnerable to those who would try to cause us harm.

The other good news is that even as we heal we get to keep our HSPness and empathic abilities <3

[Boatsetsailrose]

Being a hsp feels like being an electrical wire without any plastic covering ---

Am learning to deal with the guilt - ie guilt of not being fully there for someone -
For example I've just spent time with a friend who talks - and talks and - talks and ....
Learning to butt in / change the subject / not fully listen are all things I am learning -
Also to 'be myself ' plain and simple

Apols if this post doesn't flow with previous
( see there I go again - worrying ---
Guilt my no 1 offender

Today I can perfectly imperfect and know I am good enough I am enough