WARNING - Forum Includes Threads about Psychoactive Substances

[Kizzie]

NOTICE -  OOTS does not endorse the use of any illegal psychoactive substances.

WARNING - For any members reading/posting to this board, please note that discussion of psychoactive substances is involved, some of which are legal in certain countries and illegal in others. There are ongoing clinical trials medicinal or therapeutic use of substances such as MDMA, psilocybin, cannabis and several other substances being conducted around the world (e.g., http://www.maps.org/). It is important to understand that for safety and legal reasons, the trials are conducted under strict government and medical supervision.  Pure ingredients are used whereas street drugs more often than.

In this particular sub-forum posters may NOT encourage others to use any psychoactive substances. Rather, you may share your own experiences with them and/or discuss the research into substances which may/may not help with CPTSD. Posts which contravene this will be edited or removed.

Thank you for your cooperation.

Kizzie
Site Manager

[Rrecovery]

Thanks for posting Kizzie,
I know traumatized people who have also benefited from other psychedelics such a psilocybin - which has also shown promise treating depression.  These substances could help people have therapeutic breakthroughs.  It frustrates me that this important research remains illegal. 

[Kizzie]

MAPS has actually managed after many, many years of pushing and squawking to get quite a few clinical trials done and more underway including psilocybin I think, but oh the hoops they've had to jump through and mainly because of the stigma.  I just shake my head when I consider how destructive alcohol can be. 

I don't smoke pot or haven't since I was in high school (w-a-a-a-a-ay back when), but I have considered going to Washington to try some different strains now that's it's legal there (it borders my province). I hesitate because I don't know if it will interfere with recovering from CPTSD by letting me  dissociate/numb, or if it would help me to feel less fearful/anxious when I have an EF and let me look at my trauma with more ease    More mulling and researching required on this one.

[globetrotter]

Kizzie -
I call myself the 'one hit wonder'. I probably only smoke a couple of times per year and find that one hit is great for taking off the edge and dulling anxiety, kind of like 2 glasses of wine. I really don't like the stoned, numbed, stoopid feeling of being out of control and completely numbed by getting high. That makes me really uncomfortable.

Ive never tried X but I've wanted to.

[Kizzie]

Now that I've read about X (well, the pure form of it which is MDMA), I am actually so glad I never tried it on my own as I'm afraid it would "release the hounds" so to speak.  You know bring down the wall so that you can access self compassion, etc but what would be a massive amount of internal shifting going on without therapeutic assistance and support. It's exactly that guidance and support I think is probably key to using it with CPTSD, aid with integrating the various parts and tapping into those positive abilities the ICr keeps shuttered.

I hear you about weed. I'm not really into the numbed out feelings these days although ask me a year ago and I would have definitely latched onto it instead of alcohol to numb out if it hadn't been illegal here. I rarely drank at all before then so it really was just a way of numbing - I do not like the out of control, stupid feeling either - hmmmmmm, I wonder why that is lol? CPTSDer's need for order and control perhaps?  Anyway, I think weed also has some potential as a therapeutic tool - fine line though.

[Rrecovery]

MAPS has actually managed after many, many years of pushing and squawking to get quite a few clinical trials done and more underway including psilocybin I think, but oh the hoops they've had to jump through and mainly because of the stigma.  I just shake my head when I consider how destructive alcohol can be. 

I don't smoke pot or haven't since I was in high school (w-a-a-a-a-ay back when), but I have considered going to Washington to try some different strains now that's it's legal there (it borders my province). I hesitate because I don't know if it will interfere with recovering from CPTSD by letting me  dissociate/numb, or if it would help me to feel less fearful/anxious when I have an EF and let me look at my trauma with more ease    More mulling and researching required on this one.

This is very encouraging to hear.  Humanity needs a lot of healing.  The more tools the better.

[Unconcious_Ghost]

MDMA...
In my few encounters with MDMA, it acts as a 'truth serum.'  Anything & everything you would 'normally' hold back, don't say, don't share...comes floating out in a very positive euphoric way for about 8-10 hours.  It has the potential to wreck your joint fluids (I suggest reading up on the physical damages which have nasty consequences) and you will feel your lower spinal cord ache. 
I think it has good use for breaking through significant walls in your head & heart.  It does last a LONG time in your system, and you don't want to use it around others who are FAR from ready to handle the 'FULL YOU' with no restraints. 
It's been incorrectly labeled the 'love drug.'  If I faintly recall, it was used by marriage counselor's to help couples get past their hatred/problems of each other.  It has been highly and widely abused by rave party fanatics and sex based interests.
One boundary most people have is their personal 'space.'  As in most people aren't touchy-feeling (as in having to touch another person ALL THE TIME) and adhere to respecting personal boundaries.  If I sit next to someone, I don't sit RIGHT up against them, I give them their space.  -And hope they respect mine.  Most people give brief handshakes and physical greetings.  We don't go around giving hugs and kisses to everyone we encounter and telling them 'I love you' in a crazed manner...followed up by offering massages. 
MDMA breaks down ALL BARRIERS and BOUNDARIES.  It will make you want to say WHATEVER you've EVER held back, it will make you want to tell others EXACTLY what you think, good or bad.  It makes you extremely touchy-feely, which is why diehard rave attendees love the stuff, because everyone is right up against each other for HOURS.  It causes you to be super social, non stop talking, non stop touching, etc.
I wouldn't take it alone either.  It's best taken with extremely trusted friends and/or partner who are ALSO taking MDMA.  You will definitely annoy or make a non using MDMA person really wierded out...with the exception of a counselor observing/controlled environment.  You cannot and should not drive on it or EVER go out in public on it...because you will NOT be able to STOP yourself from hugging and talking to every person you meet.  It's ideal if the setting is planned well...quiet, uninterrupted space, mellow surroundings, and identically like minded company who will take it with you.  Smoking a little pot with it helps take off the 'intensity' and calm you down.  It's a long, long 'trip' so you should take all precautions to safely use it for the purpose intended.  You will have the best time EVER (in my opinion) because you have no stress, no constraints, no worries, no problems...for 8-10 hours.  I used to call it a 'vacation from myself.' 
In these modern times, it is considered a highly illegal drug and in some states, the criminal charges are very steep.  Also, trying to find real MDMA vs. fake or watered down MDMA would be difficult since it's a 'street drug.' Other risks are unfortunately buying it from an undercover cop or a criminal who's going to mug/rip you off.  Plus, you have to consider the risk factors of taking an unfamiliar substance that might not work in your system or conflict with other medications. 
It is a shame that MDMA isn't prescribed like it once had been for marriage counseling.  It does have immense medical benefits if used and controlled in the right manner.  Oh, and don't even think about functioning the 'day after.' Because you WILL be up all night long on it, it's too intense a stimulant/hallucinogenic properties to sleep.  You will sort of sit around and talk...talk...talk with a couple of trusted friends or partner.  We had also prepared food, drink, etc beforehand.  You are WAY TOO HIGH to play with fire or monitor cooking...it greatly distorts time/space.  It is an extremely interactive social drug; avoid the urge to drive or mingle with strangers.  I'd hide keys if I were you!  Listening to music with friends and eating good healthy, yummy foods is really cool.  If you can rent a wilderness cabin or a remote cabin/condo with a Jacuzzi/pool....and nobody around for miles, -PERFECT. Then everyone can hoot, hollar, get nekked, be unhinged, and do it safely.  MDMA will make your body feel 'hot'...its speeding up your system and stressing it out, so clothes kinda-sorta don't stay on. 

[Unconcious_Ghost]

Psilocybin in contrast to MDMA:  Psilocybin has greater hallucinogenic effects which aren't always guaranteed to be good or make you feel good.  You can have a 'bad' trip on it, and also 'trip out' harder than you intended.  It also goes for many hours, about 8-12.  You won't be able to drive or interact with society.  It is ideally taken in a semi outdoor setting FAR from society with others who are also taking it.  It's not meant for casual use and going out to the movies, etc.  You risk getting arrested if you take it and go mixing around public spaces and human populations.  It's not the break-through drug like MDMA at all.  It's a solid hallucinogenic trip which can go great or can go too intense/bad trip.  Smoking a little pot with it also shaves off the intensity.  Keep in mind with any drugs...if you are subject to blood/urine screening, taking 'street drugs' can land you in a lot of trouble.

MDMA is a completely different 'trip.' Check out online sources for the chemical compounds and mixture which makes up MDMA, it has a few different properties, its not pure cocaine or heroin, its a concoction which should make you fail a blood/urine drug test, and I think it stays in your system for awhile.  MDMA is a solid good 'trip' from start to finish.  I don't think it's possible to even have a bad trip on it, it's a total override of intensely positive, honest friendly energy for 8-10 hours.   

[Kizzie]

Tks for all the info Ghost, I don't know anyone who has used it (or don't think I do lol), and appreciate the opportunity to talk with someone who has as I've only read about it. 

I am not at all interested in MDMA recreationally, but it's something I would consider using with a therapist as a way of getting behind the wall or into the vault where the trauma is stored.  When you have used it did you see into your dark places or was it more a positive 8-10 hours of feeling sociable and loving? The author in the O Magazine article wrote that in her session she did venture into the darkness, and that she was able to get past the fear and be accepting and compassionate, which is what the excerpts I posted earlier seem to suggest. From your experience can you see MDMA being helpful in working through past trauma with the self-compassion it seems to tap into?

[Kizzie]

For any members reading this thread, plea note that we are discussing illegal substances.  This is not to suggest that you should try this or any illegal substance either for recreational or therapeutic reasons.  The context of the discussion is about the research into currently illegal substances which may/may not help with CPTSD and which may/may not be available legally in the future. 

There are ongoing clinical trials for MDMA, psilocybin, cannabis and several other substances so there is a lot of movement around the world in the direction of legalizing certain substances for medicinal or therapeutic use (See MAPS -  http://www.maps.org/). For example, in Canada recently the Cdn Arthritis Society has called for more research into the medicinal effects of MJ with an eye to legalizing it (hallelujah as the med I currently take is so hard on my stomach and I still have a lot of joint pain). See here - http://arthritis.ca/page.aspx?pid=7784.  And the Cdn Centre for Addiction and Mental Health has officially called for the legalization of weed under strict govt control (link - http://www.camh.ca/en/hospital/Pages/home.aspx).   

Anyway. there is a lot of movement toward looking at the benefits of these kinds of substances and I hope we can discuss this as openly as possible here without suggesting that members should engage is the use of illegal substances.

[Unconcious_Ghost]

Kizzie said: "I am not at all interested in MDMA recreationally, but it's something I would consider using with a therapist as a way of getting behind the wall or into the vault where the trauma is stored.  When you have used it did you see into your dark places or was it more a positive 8-10 hours of feeling sociable and loving? The author in the O Magazine article wrote that in her session she did venture into the darkness, and that she was able to get past the fear and be accepting and compassionate, which is what the excerpts I posted earlier seem to suggest. From your experience can you see MDMA being helpful in working through past trauma with the self-compassion it seems to tap into?"

Unless the therapist can legally prescribe it (not sure how that would happen) since it's classified as a dangerous street drug, not sure how anyone can obtain MDMA without having to find/buy it from nefarious sources.  My brief encounters with MDMA were 20+ years ago; each session was over 8-10 hours straight, and zero darkness/negativity at all. It's a VERY intense, long super freaking happy layers of effects from physical to mental.
In my opinion, you don't have to make ANY effort to get past barriers, depression, emotional walls, etc.  That mess evaporates immediately on MDMA, you are 100% free of any of your troubles/issues, which is why I called it a 'vacation from yourself.'  As far as 'loving' or 'compassionate' goes, I wouldn't say those are major emotional factors I recall from MDMA, it's more of a truth serum...it instigates you to tell others exactly what you feel or think.
MDMA dissolves all barriers which might be seen as embarrassing 'after the fact' in that you didn't really want to share that much about yourself.  Hence, highly trusted friends or a partner who's taken it with you.  MDMA isn't something which pinpoint targets trauma; it makes you share EVERYTHING but in a fun, upbeat, positive manner. Which is why rave goers really love it, they're dancing, having fun and letting loose.  I think it would be pretty difficult to try and focus on a trauma or anything heavy, you'd have hours and hours of not being able to think of any bad stuff.
If I recollect, it was highly effective with married couples who could not get past negative hang-up's, grudges, hatred, etc...in order to save their marriage.  MDMA would have given a couple a long break to just enjoy each other, apologize for being mean, spiteful, and hurt.  It would definitely break down defensiveness and intimacy problems.  MDMA is an intensely interactive drug, you will be compelled to honestly admit how you feel/think about others, and the overwhelming urge for physical contact (massage, sex, intimate contact) is a major component.  It is highly favored by some couples for the extremely heightened intimacy urges; I wouldn't want to use it with a pseudo-stranger like a professional counselor.
All drugs, whether legal/illegal...have differing effects on an individual such as that O Magazine author.  I'd recommend others to do extensive online medical research, there are pros/cons about any drug; but MDMA does have ingredients which will make you fail a drug screening test, and it is highly addictive for some users.  Considering the unknown street ingredients that can be downright deadly, toxic or damaging; I would not venture to track it down again.  I was fortunate over 20 years ago to have access to high quality, clean MDMA.  -Those days are long done!

Some MDMA Links:

http://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/mdma-ecstasy-abuse/what-mdma

http://www.drugfreeworld.org/drugfacts/ecstasy/what-is-ecstasy.html

http://www.urban75.com/Drugs/e_guide.html

[Kizzie]

Yes, I've read at MAPS the despair that so many T's felt when it was made illegal as they had a lot of success with using MDMA theraputically.  Tks for the links and the info and words of caution, all appreciated Ghost! 

[Sasha2727]

This thread is ironic! when I was younger I was quiet the E person! For me it did act as a truth serum of sorts too, back then I had so many bottled up thoughts and feelings that E really took me for the first time out of my anxiety! However, I would crash horribly. I have a Theory that many addicts are reenacting trauma with addiction. You Idealize ( most of us have a specific set of things we must have to use and ritualized the whole process IE. I must have this type of environment, this music, certain company ETC.) you get all hyped up for the event, then you devalue after the peak, then discard feel intense shame. E is perfect for this because it hits in waves then leaves you depressed. Also people that dissociate seem to gravitate towards E from what I have read. All I can say for sure is that stuff " fit " me well and I would def have access to emotions that I hadn't had previously. I would actually say the things and realize the things that I was too afraid to in my normal walk of life. I was with a N at the time and through writing things down while on E I finally got through my own self deceptions. I knew she was cheating and using me but I would not dare even consciously acknowledge all of the mounting evidents until I was rolling. Unfortunately It got out of hand because I was moving from once a month to a dangerous habit. I bought what I thought was molly and it was not it was a synthetic version called MMC4 and I was hooked badly for several months. I sometimes now question wether or not that phase did serious damage to my brain. luckily it was only for a few months. hm mm scary stuff. If MDMA where left untouched it could help people but thanks to the war on drugs the fake versions are killing people... anyway different topic for a different website LOL

[Stormwolf]

I currently live in Maine, and was able to get a Cannabis license. I don't use it super often, but have found that a few hits takes the edge off and I don't get too high then. I used to like using a small amount of edibles, but its really easy to eat more than you mean to and end up too high- its uncomfortable when you get to that stage, too.  Its not "bad" per-say, but I"m not one that likes actually being stoned or high.  Like Kizzie said, it seems to be a CPTSD thing- gotta have control lol. There does seem to be a fairly fine line with it, but I've kind of figured out about where that line is (though still experimenting with different strains at the moment), Cannabis does seem to work. Certainly better than a lot of the "legal" therapeutic drugs out there!

[Kizzie]

Hi Stormwolf  - thanks for telling us about your experience with cannabis, I'm always interested to hear as I don't have a medical license so haven't tried anything yet (it's been years since I used it recreationally and I didn't use much even then).  We are planning to go to Washington where it's legal recreationally so that I can try some different strains.  I don't want the stone or buzz either (yup, it's a control thing and I have felt weird enough in my life without using lol). I'm interested in taking the edge off, pain relief (arthritis) and help with falling asleep. 

I am concerned about getting too reliant on using instead of working through difficult times.  Do you see that as a potential problem?  So much of the CPTSD involves dissociating from pain so I'm afraid I will use it that way instead of for pain, sleep and occasionally to relax.

I see where the edibles market is getting bigger all the time and I was thinking I would want to stay away from that for the reason you suggest - too easy to get carried away with eating something yummy!