Creativity...

[EmoVulcan]

I am pretty sure ole Ernest Hemingway suffered much, basically neutered from war. Definitely suffured from ptsd. Frustration and pain very much evident in his work. Not a happy life.  Stephen King has dreadful nightmares..but puts them to use, IT, gave me some...hate ugly clowns...
The rennasance period emerged after some very turbulent traumatic times, black death, inquisition and all...much of what is considered great came out of the suffering of the Dark Ages. A proof of yin/yang type of balancing energies. I think to the highest levels we seek, we must also have sunk proportionately deep; or perhaps will sink.
Of course, there is every degree of nuance between the extremes.
With all the new perspective on this c- PTSD, I think hyperawareness allowed me to do detailed observing of people interacting, and just being themselves, certainly helped develop my Spidey sense.  I have traveled all over this country, and have places, people and events like Katrina that is translating to settings, devices, conflict and characters, it is quite a lot to draw on.
Focus means a certain flow can be achieved with my pen, that is composing, plotting, and detailing the bigger picture on the fly.  That I sometimes miss writing down parts of or even entire sentences, says I think faster than I can physically write...typing slows me down almost intolerably...some people hate re-reading, I hate re-thinking, because I got lost amid typing it down.  This has ever been the worlds in my head coming out in new and different ways...then taken apart to reconfigure something else, better? Instead.  My head always was 'out there'; l think I always wanted to hitch a ride to anywhere but earth...so many books I had read, just blended in with  science and writing skills I was gaining...
But, no matter the genre, it is all about humans, behaviors, emotions, feelings...motivations.  The Author, I am told, and do see...always tells his personal tale, you know how that goes, and the best books to read, capture personality and the struggle perfectly..like they were there.
So, pain like ours has us looking so much at the world, people and normal life, while our biosystems are at Def-Con 5, that we have those small minute details in our memory banks, and the sensory details as well. I certainly have had some success of late just free writing.  The stuff just comes together. I could be grateful, if I ever send in a piece and actually make a sale.
I am grateful to be able to express many things well, others I am hoping will become clearer as I work with maturing me all up to sync.  Maybe I should try something twisted right now.  Couldn't hurt.
I have to say, maybe people like us can write the best about angst, existentialism, and unfair abuses..Drama and strife...Hollywood makes bank because people need to emote, without stigma.  Wonder what art would look like after a thousand years drama and trauma free. Maybe kind of juvenile.

[Dutch Uncle]

Wonder what art would look like after a thousand years drama and trauma free. Maybe kind of juvenile.

I disagree. You just have to look at the art of some of the great stable Empires this Globe has known.
- the UK (Tudor furniture and other art for example)
- the Roman Empire
- Islamic art
- Egyptian Pharaonic art
- Austro-Hungary (Mozart for example)
- Chinese Dynastic art
- Japanese art from the 'isolation' period that lasted for centuries

All not 'juvenile' IMHO.

[tired]

I think art that is created when you're working through trauma and you're not far in recovery might look juvenile because you made it when you were essentially a child emotionally . When you get to a point where you have an adult understand of what is happening , it will look more meaningful because it tells a more complete story. 

I don't do well with art that is emotional . It looks childish.  Occasionally I'll have a moment and I will feel like a bunch of things come together in my head and I'll think , if I had artistic skills and I had the materials right now , I could create something fantastic. It seems like it's the understanding and the bringing together of various concepts that makes it great.

I do channel that somewhere else like redecorating the house in a way that is clever and useful. Lately I've been arranging things without listening to the voices and it looks pretty good.  My mother visited two years ago and said my bedroom looked like a funeral parlor and made me buy new bedding . I think it looks great. After she left I changed it back, returned the white bedding, and never spoke to her again. 

[EmoVulcan]

Valid points DU and tired.
I guess I was thinking really long term peace and none of the insanity we grew up with...the evidence and speculations says that empathy, angst, grief and pain add a depth to art that connects emotion to feeling, evoking...but what if you never experienced angst, or had a mere word crush you?  How could this be conveyed, convincingly enough to evoke the emotional connection...like my very early writing, some things are not logically or emotionally connected, leaving a shallow and stilted character, I guess a sociopath, faking it.  And some characters hopelessly irrational and inconsistent in a would not happen like that way.

I certainly could describe some people as shallow and almost seem artificial in ways...vacuous even. Oblivious to anything amiss in their environment, and would smile, pat your arm, and tell you everything is rainbows, unicorns and 31derful flavors every day.
As to date there has never been a content period in history. Illness, wars, and poverty have always been with us...as speculation about abuse cycles have traced back to ww one, and shell shocked veterans.  That is more than a couple full generations geometrically progressing the damages. In number of victims, this must be astounding. I do not know if the number of artists or outstanding work reflects that or not.

  Not sure if visual works would necessarily be affected, in any case, beauty is easy to see and appreciate...but maybe not necessarily to the point of reflections and musings.  Music, poems and stories are what I wonder more about...a technically perfect rendition of a song, can lack the depth of emotion depending on who is playing or singing it, complexity can exist but lack layers that properly color it. (At least that was why my mom ended my affair with the clarinet...she said I memorized, and did not "read" the music?) (How does one with near perfect recall not memorize the score?). I still sing like no ones listening...no one tells me to stop either.  So just idle thoughts.

Arts and fine arts are disparaged as a waste of time and money according to business needs.  Maybe apaths and sociopaths do not need to emote..robotic that seems.  Maybe, that is factual...as stories are told because we need to tell ours, its a drive, I would write mine even without an eye to sell.
Scratch that, I have been writing mine...

[Dutch Uncle]

the evidence and speculations says that empathy, angst, grief and pain add a depth to art that connects emotion to feeling, evoking.

I have yet to see the evidence for it, in particular to other art being (by it's very 'origin') 'juvenile' or 'not as good' or 'not as thought provoking' or 'not as stimulating'. I already argued earlier the a lot of the Great Art has been made by artists who by no stretch of imagination can be tied to "angst, grief and pain" they 'must have' experienced in their lives in order to produce their art. And I just argued similarly for the Great Empires, where most of the Great Art produced was made at the calm, peaceful and prosperous "core of the empire" (A "core" that can be huge). Have you ever been to the Topkapi in Istanbul for example? I cried my eyes out. And virtually non of the arts and crafts displayed there has anything to do with "angst, grief and pain".

Great art can as easily be made from very different, and even complete opposite emotions and experiences to "angst, grief and pain".
Thank heavens it can.

[tired]

I knew a photographer who was a young alcoholic with a number of problems. Borderline personality, cutter.  not getting treatment.  Her photos were flat, not very good technically, meant to show pain or something but really looked very adolescent and spontaneous like the diary of an angry 12 year old.  just not much depth to them because she had no depth.  she had pain, i'm sure, but it was on the surface  if that makes sense.

[pam]

When I was young I thought depression was connected to being an artist. I said "An artist was probably someone whose only pleasure in their horrible and lonely childhood was found in colors." Of course I was talking about me.

But in the last year I've really started taking my painting seriously, and no, my art is not helped by, or born out of, CPTSD. Actually it interferes with me doing as much as I could. Terrible feelings of "I shouldn't be enjoying myself, don't deserve to paint" etc. make me barely be able to paint. It takes days of getting up the nerve to do an hour or 2 of painting. I'm really trying to get over that, but it's tiring!

My art was not the greatest (altho I was always told I had "talent") when I was young. Since getting rid of depression and suicidal feelings, it improved. But I think that's because I have a positive attitude, think I can do it, believe in myself, and have put a lot of energy into learning it (I finally figured out "talent" isn't enough--you have to gain skills). All of these things were impossible to do when still depressed! 

[Jdog]

Pam-

Thank you for sharing.  I began playing violin at age 8, having saved my allowances and little monetary gifts from the age of 4 to get an instrument.  I am possessed of average talent, and enjoyed playing through college and beyond as I was a member of several professional orchestras.  The bubble burst when I fell victim to an old-school teacher in a master class who tore me to shreds.  I fell into a depression which was years long and playing no longer gave me joy.  In retrospect, I realize that that critic triggered feelings that I had held for years which were brought on by my father (who discouraged me and constantly told me I was not good enough to play in public).

I played off and on for years in my 30's and 40's, earning a bit of money with string quartets playing wedding gigs, playing in regional orchestras, etc.  Finally, I injured my shoulder horribly while playing in the orchestra pit for an opera back in 2000.  I sought many forms of treatment, and none helped enough for me to regain the ability to keep playing for any length of time. 

Last year, I began monthly bodywork which is addressing tensions in various parts of my body.  In conjunction with therapy and my own work on myself, I realize that the pain is really all about cptsd.  I am learning to not dissociate as much, to face my critic and begin taking the sting out of the pain.  I am beginning to listen again to the child who so loved playing music.  Yesterday, I picked up my violin for the first time in a year.  I am devoted to taking it slowly, working on maintaining my feeling in whatever notes I produce.  I will put the violin down when my mind wanders, take a breath, and decide whether I should keep going or stop.  Kind of like catching myself daydreaming during meditation.

So - short story long - I don't think cptsd has helped my music.

[tesscaline]

My CPTSD has definitely not helped my art.  It may have inspired a certain number of works, but overall?  No, it's been a hinderance.  The thoughts of "not being good enough", the feelings that I can't possibly make a living at doing something I'm so mediocre at, the lack of energy and focus to be able to practice... Those things have held me back with my art.  It's only recently that I've been able to shove many of those thoughts away and recognize my potential, my talent, enough to really buckle down and work at it as more than just a hobby.

So, instead, my art has helped my CPTSD.  My art allows me an outlet for all the pain I have, in a way that allows me to take it and turn it into something positive and beautiful.  Art is therapy, for me.

I would argue that there is a fine line between creativity and "madness", though.  In order to create truly emotional work, we must be in touch with our emotions on a deeper level than the average person.  We have to explore our dark places as well as our light ones, if we wish to create things that are provocative.  While anyone, regardless of their level of pain or suffering, can hone their technical skills in a medium until they are as close to perfect as possible, that's not the same thing as creativity.  Creativity comes from looking at a subject in a different way than expected and/or socially acceptable.  That... Doesn't happen as much if you never experience much in the way of strife, or are not on the "fringes" of society in some way.  I think that is, perhaps, what Berryman was referring to -- not the skill with which a piece is executed, but how evocative or novel the subject matter the artist undertakes is.  And my pain does, indeed, influence the art I make.  It causes it to veer in directions that it wouldn't otherwise.  It makes my darks darker, and my lights lighter.  It gives my art a vibrance that I think wouldn't be there otherwise -- but only after I get past those self-critical roadblocks.

Dutch Uncle -- while you have an interesting point, just because a culture experienced a quiet moment, that doesn't mean that the people living within the culture lacked pain and suffering.  In fact, one of the examples you gave (Mozart) experienced a great deal of suffering and pain over the course of his life.  And some of those examples, while they were stable empires, were far from peaceful, calm, or without strife and/or suffering.  The Egypt of the Pharaohs  survived on the backs of a huge slave class, who were whipped, malnourished , and otherwise harmed in a great many ways.  Even for those who didn't come from the slave class, pestilences were problematic, living under the rule of religious dictators isn't exactly stress or strife free.   The Tudors, again, similar -- albeit with serfs rather than "slaves", and add in a bunch of added violence from skirmishes with other leaders.  Abuse, by family members, by the government, were far more rampant during the time periods you mention than they are now.  Torture was a pretty normal thing, in many of those cultures, for even petty infractions.  Poverty and illness were more than average.  Plagues, famine, wars... It all happened with more frequency than it does now for those of us in the modern world.  So trying to say that the art in those cultures came from people who were "drama and trauma free"  isn't really appropriate, in my opinion anyway. 

[Dutch Uncle]

An interesting newspaper column from "the Guardian" (UK) on this subject:
Do you need to be troubled to be a genius?
What can we learn from the Warhols, Gershwins and Lincolns?

[woodsgnome]

The title of this piece ("do you need to be troubled to be a genius") has no bearing on whether creativity can help or hinder those responding to life from having what we call cptsd. Creativity is not about genius; neither was logical conclusion  implied in the open-ended original post on this thread and subsequent discussions. What truly matters is one's everyday response to life, and sometimes it does indeed involve what's called creativity.

Some people apparently feel threatened by that term. The fact that many with cptsd can find enormous comfort, truth, and great joy via creative expression shows that one can indeed turn an injured soul in the direction of finding one's own peace, in their own way. It could even be argued that rescuing one's life this way is indeed great genius!

Whether it's 'great' art or simply humming a tune, creating something is a sign for a weary soul that yes, there is hope despite the pain and senselessness of what brought us to this stage. No one asked for this; and creating a life pattern involving one's own artful expression  is a beautiful attempt to find our own answers to that pain.

Does one need to be hurt to create? Of course not...but sometimes it's the best, maybe even the only way, some of us find any meaning to life. And why denigrate those who choose to do so? If it means something and/or one can find meaning via a creative expression--their own or someone else's--that's wrong? Why question the creator's motives and/or what they should/shouldn't derive from their form of artistic endeavour? Or whether their chosen means of expression was born of a painful experience? Plus who cares if it's 'great' or not, anyway? Sometimes it's even called therapeutic, and its beauty is derived from within. And we need to find a way to realize that beauty which resides in each of us, but can be so hard to find. 

[woodsgnome]

I've already expressed some very strong emotions about this topic, as it touches me so deeply. But I just want to add why it hits my every fibre.

When I was still struggling with the aftershock of a cptsd-filled youth, I fell into what some would call a creative field. But for me it was way more--it..literally...saved...my...life.

Hyperbole? Hardly--I was suicidal until I found that way of expressing myself. It taught me that I really did have value. Coming from a background where I didn't think life was worth it anymore, I had that last straw and I'm so grateful I had it, and found it.

I still know that, and often it remains my only strength. I don't care if it's great, artful even. Doesn't matter to anyone--but to me it was the first inkling that there was a way out other than taking my own life.

Thanks for bearing me out on this; it's my emotional touchstone, I guess.

[MaryAnn]

Hi Woodsgnome,

You have expressed what real creativity and art truly represent.  Creativity and art come not either from genius or pain, angst, and sorrow.  Someone can be a very technically good musician or artist but it may not necessarily be creative. The art itself may be very good but that does not mean it is creative or expresses itself in a unique way that inspires anyone, even the one making the art.  Many artists simply copy or imitate the craft of another musician, painter, author, etc... 

Creativity comes from honesty, experiences that touch one's soul and impacts who they are or changes who they are.  There are many musicians that write beautiful lyrics and music, are very creative, but are not really that good at the art of singing or playing the instruments.  But because they are passionate about their craft and are dedicated to it, they have been successful regardless of how could they are at the mechanics of the art itself.  Why?  Because it is genuine and honest and touches many because they can relate to it.  Same with painters, authors, comedians, any art form.   No, creativity comes from joy, happiness, anger, jealousy, feeling bad, feeling sad, tragedy, loss, even melancholy and content.  Creativity comes from the full range of emotions and beliefs that a person can have. 

Woodsgnome is right, creativity can come from anywhere and it does not have to be "great" in technical terms.  Creativity comes from within all of us.  It is our honest expression of what we think, feel, and understand.  For many, it is the best way to be honest in their expression.  It can be hard for many to express themselves honestly verbally.  It comes much easier in the form of writing, making a craft, painting, or writing music.  It doesn't matter how good others think it is or isn't.  All that matters is that we understand what it means to us and that it inspires us whether that is to do or not do something, change how we think, or how we treat others.  If, in the meantime, others see it or read it and it inspires them as well, well that is just a bonus!

Lol, MaryAnn