Feel abandoned by ex who "still cared and wanted to be friends"

[NyxBean]

Story in bullet points to try to keep it as quick as possible:

• I'm 25 genderfluid, sex female and he is 32 male
• knew him a bit before
• together for a year
• dumped day before anniversary because he "couldn't deal his issues" or I "was too much" or both
• said we would "talk in a few days" when steering me out the flat
• I had to prompt that by asking what sort of time scale that was after I sent a huge apology and got a short answer which said I wasn't hated, was "still cared for", "we" both needed space, and that he hoped to be friends again "someday though it would be difficult or unlikely"; I still don't know if he meant it would be hard for both people, him, or me
• he told my flatmate we'd start talking again in a couple of months, maybe sooner
• my flatmate is also my unofficial carer and knows all of the sudden life stressors which are piling on so once or twice asked ex to get in touch with small amount of encouragement as I felt I needed it
• first time "the internet was out" for about a week and he didn't get the message but I was feeling better so I said he wasn't to worry
• second time it was simply ignored
• I may have Aspergers and recently learned that people can become fixations as much as hobbies; this worries me due to aspects of C-PTSD
• it's been about a month, not a long time to a stable person, but ages for me
• I won't go into detail as it is not allowed and I will seek help but self-destructive behaviours have been present
• a few days ago I sent a video in which I was going for self-closure as he was ignoring a lot and my stable carer said it was getting a "little bit [expletive]" though my carer didn't go too much into detail
• I wasn't sure what it was going to be but it would up being a calm, honest, blunt, but not intended to be mean discussion of the issues he shows and some of his friends see, and how he has been help-resistant for years
• I also mentioned my own problems, told him that while I still loved him I knew a relationship was impossible, and that I wanted to be friends but couldn't if he was not able to face his problems eventually
• my carer is a mutual friend/acquaintance of my ex and okay'd my script
• my judgement of time and my abandonment issues are severe and my ex knows this, as well as knowing many people have deserted me due to my illnesses without warning
• my ex didn't answer for days until I had a panic attack the evening after arguing neighbours gave me an emotional flashback and I sent a message asking for permission to talk

Although the 50min video covered a lot of areas to do with him, myself, what had went on, things I thought might help if he looked into them, all the said was:

Okay I watched the video. Have you said everything you need to say for closure? Finding it hard to look at anything in that video as "nice". I've never claimed to be well, it may be more than depression and anxiety, there's a family history of bipolar so maybe that. I'm getting help, or at least waiting in the system until I get help. When we got together I thought I was getting better (wishful thinking) but I had only changed enough of my life to be happier, I should have been getting therapy then but I was telling myself I was getting better. I've been putting it off for years because it scares me, that's kinda obvious though.

[a little bit where he defends himself against a small rumour brought up by an ex who mentioned it out of the blue to me]

I had warned him before watching that it would be blunt but it was intended to be helpful. I never once said it would be nice and I've pointed out that his imposed no-contact with me was not nice either but he felt he needed to do it, just as I felt compelled to do this.

As for the closure bit, I said no because of the trigger and it showing me I was obviously not prepared for him to be out of my life for good, at least not yet. I explained why I felt I needed to do it (the silence causing me to act in uncontrollable manners and irritating everybody around me).

I understand that seeking therapy can be scary, of course, but this is the first time he's pointed it out. He said it should be obvious but the thing is, it won't be to everybody and if I have Aspergers, it might go towards me not having considered that in relation to him. Sometimes you have to tell me something straight and simple because I tend to miss it. I think that may be an empathy issue? Should I get a diagnosis I will be provided with structured therapy and resources for that.

The bipolar... maybe a milder form such as cyclomania would fit. I know people on various parts of the bipolar spectrum. To me, having stayed with him at his house a fair bit, his moods always appeared to be situation-dependent. I'm not a doctor though and hope that he will get answers.



I responded to this with an indepth reply, first making sure to apologise that it had made him feel bad but clarifying that it was unlikely to make him happy and I thought I had explained. I gave some resources, attempted to kindly clarify some points, explained why I had texted, and explained that one of the main issues keeping me from closure was the lack of answers, specifically the ones about how he felt about me.

I told him I would need him to tell me to stay out of his life and that he didn't care, or that he did want to be friends and though not sure of the timescale [fuzzy min and fuzzy max]. To make sure he realised I knew this sounded strange, I attempted to explain that I can't seem to comprehend the vague time phrases people made and that to understand, cope, and close issues I need to investigate them and then file them away. I'm sure this will come up at the autism spectrum assessment.



Anyway, I sent that 24 hours ago and while I know that's no time at all, I have some questions:

• I have tried to do everything my friends and the internet has suggested to take my mind off matters; do you think you have any unconventional advice on how to deal with it?
• I don't know how much is the C-PTSD and how much is the probable Aspergers. Although I suppose it isn't that important, I'm sort of looking for thoughts on that?
• I should expect him not to answer, right?
• How long do you suppose it might take if he is going to, on an uninformed guess?
• Should I be friends with this person?
• I know I have not been decent, pestering him when the C-PTSD panic has taken over; I'm yet to receive therapy though and I'm trying my hardest - am I a bad person?
• With this small amount of information, is he acting normally or is my carer right in that he is beginning to verge towards cruel?
• If he doesn't answer at all, meaning likely that he doesn't care, how stupid would it be to send a text to see if he read the response and why would it be stupid/not stupid?
• How do I get closure if I need answers and he won't give any? I've heard "just stop thinking about it" and "time" as responses already but they don't help me in the here and now.
• Online people said he had merely stated friends so as not to be cruel; people who knew him felt it was unlikely. That was a while ago now though - does it seem that maybe his friends were merely thinking the best of him?
• Why won't he tell me to go away if he doesn't like me?
• I think he might suffer C-PTSD too and the bipolar doesn't immediately sound as if it fits; is there anywhere online I can go to list behaviours and receive a tenuous "maybe it is this"? I wouldn't use it against him or decide it was the truth, but perhaps it could go towards me understanding.
• How long does it tend to take you to get over a bad break up and how do you personally cope? I've only loved two others before this, I'm still not over them, and they were both entirely different situations than this with much more complication. I don't remember what it was like.
• Should he be keeping the diagnoses he knows and the one he was as certain as I was in mind when dealing with me?
• Possible Aspie confusion: he's acting as if he doesn't care or even actively resents me. How could this be if it is not the case?
• What are some precise C-PTSD resources I should be looking at for this situation?

Sorry about the length and the amount of questions; I don't expect people to answer them all. I'm willing to answer anything asked of me. I'm just so confused and feel like I'm a psycho. I don't ever know what is normal to feel, say, think, do.

[C.]

Hello Nyxbean,

I want to start by saying that it's clear from your efforts and your writing that you have read and are working to make your use of OOTS helpful and appropriate.  Thank you.

Next, as painful and difficult as your current experience is I see you trying hard to make sense of it and to cope as best you can.  I trust your process.  You will get through this.

I do not know the answers to your questions.  But, I have had several recent break ups so will work off of my own experience to respond as best I can.  I like your thought that you may obsess over a person rather than an object.  I work w/people w/autism spectrum disorder.  That happens.

I am going to answer your questions one by one, but in general I'd like to say that the answers and your decisions ultimately lie within you.  You probably already know this though.  I remember when my marriage ended and I turned to a lot of people for advice and ideas.  At the time that was what I needed.  However now, 3 ½ years later, I've learned to rely more on myself for the answers b/c I, like you, am unique.  For that reason sometimes the advice helped or worked, but sometimes it did not. 

And not knowing something is a huge trigger for me so I think I understand your anxiety around the unknown and what to expect after this break up.  You talk about what he is doing.  But, assuming this relationship is over, what do you want for you?  Not what he does, but you.

Here is a shot at thoughts about your questions:

1.   I have tried to do everything my friends and the internet has suggested to take my mind off matters; do you think you have any unconventional advice on how to deal with it?
I've been there.  I guess just sometimes you mind goes there because it needs to, you need to process this break up.  A month is not a lot of time so thinking about it a lot seems pretty normal to me.
As far as taking your mind off of matters I took up new hobbies and that helped.  Anything that feels like self-care for you.
2.   I don't know how much is the C-PTSD and how much is the probable Aspergers. Although I suppose it isn't that important, I'm sort of looking for thoughts on that?
As I understand it the first creates anxiety related to abandonment.  The second (Aspergers) to obsessing over a topic.  I think that a skillful therapist could help you to answer this question.
3.   I should expect him not to answer, right?
From my perspective, yes.  It sounds like he has had his own closure.  For him, this topic is over.
4.   How long do you suppose it might take if he is going to, on an uninformed guess?
Maybe never?
5.   Should I be friends with this person?
Do you think that you could be friends right now and feel ok about that?  Not have expectations of reuniting?  What would friends look like to you?  From what you've described of his response and your pain it seems that could be difficult right now.
6.   I know I have not been decent, pestering him when the C-PTSD panic has taken over; I'm yet to receive therapy though and I'm trying my hardest - am I a bad person?
You are not a bad person.  You are doing the best that you can.  Feeling like a bad person is a symptom of C-PTSD.
7.   With this small amount of information, is he acting normally or is my carer right in that he is beginning to verge towards cruel?
He sounds angry.  Trust your gut if you can so to speak.  What do you think?
8.   If he doesn't answer at all, meaning likely that he doesn't care, how stupid would it be to send a text to see if he read the response and why would it be stupid/not stupid?
You mention that he felt criticized from the video.  Another reason he might not respond would be to avoid pain and/or because for him this relationship is done.  How would you feel if he doesn't answer the text? 
9.   How do I get closure if I need answers and he won't give any? I've heard "just stop thinking about it" and "time" as responses already but they don't help me in the here and now.
Again, the challenge and anxiety of the unknown.  What are processes that work for you?  Writing?  Recording? Poetry?
10.   Online people said he had merely stated friends so as not to be cruel; people who knew him felt it was unlikely. That was a while ago now though - does it seem that maybe his friends were merely thinking the best of him?
Ugh, third party perspectives.  Personally I try to ignore them.  If someone hasn't told me directly maybe it's something that I don't need to know or think about.  And another person can change, misunderstand or emphasize what they've heard in their own way.  I had a "friend" pretty much ruin a dating relationship I had w/someone by making a wrong assumptions out of something she saw.  It put me in panic mode.
11.   Why won't he tell me to go away if he doesn't like me?
Because he also doesn't want to hurt you.
12.   I think he might suffer C-PTSD too and the bipolar doesn't immediately sound as if it fits; is there anywhere online I can go to list behaviours and receive a tenuous "maybe it is this"? I wouldn't use it against him or decide it was the truth, but perhaps it could go towards me understanding.
There are a lot of resources.  I would start w/the website of Pete Walker.  Then maybe look at the resources section of this forum.  It seems both he and you could learn from this process.
13.   How long does it tend to take you to get over a bad break up and how do you personally cope? I've only loved two others before this, I'm still not over them, and they were both entirely different situations than this with much more complication. I don't remember what it was like.
Grief is not logical or sequential.  I know that for me one year of experiencing all of the holidays in a new way helped.  Coping w/self-care, therapy, supportive people, Faith of some sort (if that works for you),
14.   Should he be keeping the diagnoses he knows and the one he was as certain as I was in mind when dealing with me?
Not sure I understand this question. 
15.   Possible Aspie confusion: he's acting as if he doesn't care or even actively resents me. How could this be if it is not the case?
Feelings change.  They come, go and change.  So maybe sometimes he feels that he cares and sometimes he does not.  I've come to measure love by action, not the feeling.
16.   What are some precise C-PTSD resources I should be looking at for this situation?
http://www.pete-walker.com/ for starters

Finally, C-PTSD¸autism and the end of relationship are all very difficult issues for anyone to tackle.  It sounds like you have an assessment coming up.  I hope that you have or are looking in to therapy?  It's been a very helpful part of my healing and recovery.  And many of us feel we don't know what is normal in terms of how to feel, behave, respond either for ourselves or for others.  Reading through this forum, therapy, Pete Walker, self-care and whatever works for you helps.  It seems you've begun a journey towards healing.  I trust that you will learn these things and to be patient and kind with yourself.

[NyxBean]

Hello C. 

Thank you for your kind and useful words. I'm a bit drained so I'm going to answer the questions you've directed to me and a thought on one statement, but I did read all of your post.

And not knowing something is a huge trigger for me so I think I understand your anxiety around the unknown and what to expect after this break up.  You talk about what he is doing.  But, assuming this relationship is over, what do you want for you?  Not what he does, but you.

Well, in a way that concerns him still, he runs roleplay games and is a hub for gamers, etc. If I can remain friends it is far easier to engage in tabletop and card games because a) I find it hard to make new friends, and b) new contacts will likely be male and the group in Edinburgh have a tendency to work out if a female is single and if they can make a move. At one convention while single I was asked "How does a beautiful gamer like you manage to stay single?" At that time I really thought I had lost desire in men (desire for women never goes but for men it fluctuates) so I said there weren't enough breasts. It got a laugh and then he did that "I have friend who's a lesbian" thing. It was funny.

I wouldn't want to remain friends just for that. There's also the spiritual/magick connection and ability to talk openly about that with somebody, as well as shared interests, intellect, etc. I really wish we had simply been close friends and hadn't got together. His positive side, which is generally all his friends see, is perfect for a platonic companionship.

He was one of the two people I felt I could talk to and the other actually doesn't understand me much. In a selfish way, I don't want to lose the ability to vent out the weirder issues.

I suppose that's what he does but that's the selfish parts of why I want to stay friends. It might sound like I'm starstruck but I was not like this with the other two - he was actually somebody I matched with. It's a shame that we ruined it with a relationship. The above is what I would gain from him.


For me, I simply want to not hurt like this and to regain the tenuous concentration I did have. Therapy and working on myself is a big one, then getting past the agoraphobia, being able to make friends, getting involved with the local gaming community, writing, esp. writing for games.

I'm on disability benefits, have never worked, and, as a high school dropout, I've been out of education properly for about a decade. I managed around a month or two of college (UK terminology) but burned out. Although this may sound defeatist, I don't think I will have a stable job ever. I would like to do random bits for games and get paid, but making a career out of that is extremely difficult. Still, I'd like to try to attend University anyway one day, for the knowledge itself. But before all that, I want my benefits to be sorted out properly so I can take Japanese classes.

I do have plans which sometimes seem further away than usual. This setback only made them appear impossible during the first few days, or if I go wobbly. I feel they are realistic if taken slowly but also ambitious enough not to be... a waste.

I'm not sure if this is what you were asking.

5.   Should I be friends with this person?
Do you think that you could be friends right now and feel ok about that?  Not have expectations of reuniting?  What would friends look like to you?  From what you've described of his response and your pain it seems that could be difficult right now.

I'm more wondering it he sounds like a friend who could be healthy in himself. I'm unsure.

As for expectations of reuniting, no. Maybe hopes but I wouldn't think it would happen, partially because I know how he spoke of exes and have spoken to exes he is friends with. As well as that, when I think about it objectively, I'm more 65/35 about wanting it and that keeps dropping. I could only see myself fully wishing for it after he's had a year or two of therapy (same with me) and I'm supposing that by that time it would be a different place. I also would not want to mess up the chance of getting to play tabletop. It's silly I should be so focused on that and it is, as I said, not the main reason, but it would matter so much to me that I truly believe it would override silliness.

I could be okay enough with it as I have a plan of contact: low, medium, full friends. Low contact remains online and at first might only have to do with projects or even simply knowing they are there. I probably wouldn't start conversations if my questions have been answered. I'm pretty sure I told him that would be needed before friends. That's too ensure no weird messages.

Medium contact is when you can meet up in neutral areas (neither's house), starting of with making sure it is only with at least one other friend. No restaurants together alone, not even cafés. Eventually medium contact ramps up to having friends round at one another's houses, but you leave before the last person does. This contact can be kept for as long as wanted, needed, or perhaps it stays like that, though that's awkward friendship to me.

Full friends is when you can go bowling with just you and the other person, even be at their house with them alone. That takes ages though, I imagine, and you have to avoid stuff like drinking, etc.

I wrote a whole blog post on my view of post-relationship contact, actually.  (the only laugh smiley seems over the top)

Friends would mean being there to chat when the other person has nobody else to get it out to, being there to offer advice, sending links to things the other person would find cool. That's about it, I suppose and the first two would be at low levels during low contact. I suppose I'm too systematic.

7.   With this small amount of information, is he acting normally or is my carer right in that he is beginning to verge towards cruel?
He sounds angry.  Trust your gut if you can so to speak.  What do you think?

I don't know. He does have the ability to hold strong grudges and be quite vindictive but the instances I've witnessed don't really add up to what occurred in our relationship unless his rather strong paranoia has taken over. I don't believe I did anything wrong apart from being ill during the relationship and then my shameful spiral. I didn't even say too much that was terrible, surprisingly, and he surpassed me in "insults".

So if he's paranoid then who knows? He could view me as some kind of Gorgon for... some complex and half-fabricated reason.

If he isn't, I think he's more angry at my honest making him feel guilty, which I don't intend to do.

I don't even know if he's angry though, that's the thing. He's not acting in a way I had anticipated. I'm trying to think of other emotions. Just guilt in himself misdirected? Really unsure. 

8.   If he doesn't answer at all, meaning likely that he doesn't care, how stupid would it be to send a text to see if he read the response and why would it be stupid/not stupid?
You mention that he felt criticized from the video.  Another reason he might not respond would be to avoid pain and/or because for him this relationship is done.  How would you feel if he doesn't answer the text?

Angry, mostly at what I would consider a lack of empathy/compassion. I know this is me slipping backwards in my self-imposed training but if I had to vigorously teach myself how to do right by others and he had 7 - 8 years on me then it's less easy to forgive without knowing the reasons for certain.

I would rather he respond by telling me to stop contacting for good than to say nothing at all. Of course, a response saying he'll look and answer is the ideal.

9.   How do I get closure if I need answers and he won't give any? I've heard "just stop thinking about it" and "time" as responses already but they don't help me in the here and now.
Again, the challenge and anxiety of the unknown.  What are processes that work for you?  Writing?  Recording? Poetry?

I've been doing some poems. Wrote out the background of a horror story but can't get into it because of the emotion. Started a blog but it's moving slowly for the same reason. Going to try to get out with friends soonish even though agoraphobia is not being great. Got out to see a Titan Arum.

My flatmate/carer suggested the cinema but that's scary for some reason. If a few people said bowling then I'd really try to go.

I was also trying to arrange a group to game with but they are scatterbrained and my carer hasn't helped yet. I don't want to push him on it because of his burnout.

11.   Why won't he tell me to go away if he doesn't like me?
Because he also doesn't want to hurt you.

To me, that's really, really, really stupid. a) you don't like the person, and b) there's a million and one ways to tell them not to contact and almost half are compassionate. I hope this is not the case because I find it a little daft. Then again, I'm one to tell people what I think, though I've learned to do it nicely. Sometimes I slip but I know it is better to be blunt than kind. Cruelty has no place in that saying.

14.   Should he be keeping the diagnoses he knows and the one he was as certain as I was in mind when dealing with me?
Not sure I understand this question.

Well, now that he is not a partner but an apparently intended friend, should he not first consider my diagnoses and the one he himself is certain of while he's responding? I tried my hardest to alleviate any concerns of accusations as I know his anxiety and paranoia, but they're more ingrained than I had imagined.

I hope that you have or are looking in to therapy?

Got a psychologist, psychiatrist, should be getting help from social work, and if I'm diagnosed I will have access to an autistic adults service here in my city which has... well, lots of useful groups and support sources. Unfortunately my psychologist says that we should wait until after the assessment to begin therapy proper and we don't know when they will see me. I do have a checkup appointment with her soon so maybe I'll find out if she knows how long it will take - actually irrationally frightened that she'll tell me that she's changed her mind for now.

Currently looking anywhere for self-help and outlets, though during dangerous times have considered a stay at the Crisis Centre. Really though, I couldn't handle that as they'll want to talk a lot and I don't have much to say, or at least anything I haven't said a million times by now. I also hated it when the Crisis Team were visiting my house: loads of different doctors, nurses, and a psychiatrist appearing and asking me the same old questions.


Anyway Thanks again for the response and I hope I wasn't too confusing.

[C.]

Hello NyxBean, 

I can't think of an easy way to format these responses w/o making the post itself long.  However, I've put my second response below asterisks and my responses in total aren't too long.

Your description and answers were not confusing to me at all.  I needed a little time to process and respond.  And you'll see that I've learned to accept people (except my ex?) pretty much as is, so whether you read or don't read, I understand and respect that you'll do what's best for you.  Hopefully that's what we're all learning and trying to do here.

I was reflecting yesterday about your experience and realized I relate I think b/c of the surprise that you experienced with the break up.  That happened to me three years ago.  I honestly didn't see it coming.  In hindsight I can now see the signs, but "love" and denial can really taint the real picture.  The unexpected abandonment sent me spiraling.  I had to make a lot of life changes to adapt.  I'm not sure, but it sounds like that was the case for you as well, the unexpected aspect of the break up at the time.

Quote from: C. on July 12, 2015, 11:49:23 AM

And not knowing something is a huge trigger for me so I think I understand your anxiety around the unknown and what to expect after this break up.  You talk about what he is doing.  But, assuming this relationship is over, what do you want for you?  Not what he does, but you.

Quote from NyxBean:  Well, in a way that concerns him still, he runs roleplay games and is a hub for gamers, etc. If I can remain friends it is far easier to engage in tabletop and card games because a) I find it hard to make new friends, and b) new contacts will likely be male and the group in Edinburgh have a tendency to work out if a female is single and if they can make a move. At one convention while single I was asked "How does a beautiful gamer like you manage to stay single?" At that time I really thought I had lost desire in men (desire for women never goes but for men it fluctuates) so I said there weren't enough breasts. It got a laugh and then he did that "I have friend who's a lesbian" thing. It was funny.

I wouldn't want to remain friends just for that. There's also the spiritual/magick connection and ability to talk openly about that with somebody, as well as shared interests, intellect, etc. I really wish we had simply been close friends and hadn't got together. His positive side, which is generally all his friends see, is perfect for a platonic companionship.

He was one of the two people I felt I could talk to and the other actually doesn't understand me much. In a selfish way, I don't want to lose the ability to vent out the weirder issues.

I suppose that's what he does but that's the selfish parts of why I want to stay friends. It might sound like I'm starstruck but I was not like this with the other two - he was actually somebody I matched with. It's a shame that we ruined it with a relationship. The above is what I would gain from him.

For me, I simply want to not hurt like this and to regain the tenuous concentration I did have. Therapy and working on myself is a big one, then getting past the agoraphobia, being able to make friends, getting involved with the local gaming community, writing, esp. writing for games.

I'm on disability benefits, have never worked, and, as a high school dropout, I've been out of education properly for about a decade. I managed around a month or two of college (UK terminology) but burned out. Although this may sound defeatist, I don't think I will have a stable job ever. I would like to do random bits for games and get paid, but making a career out of that is extremely difficult. Still, I'd like to try to attend University anyway one day, for the knowledge itself. But before all that, I want my benefits to be sorted out properly so I can take Japanese classes.

I do have plans which sometimes seem further away than usual. This setback only made them appear impossible during the first few days, or if I go wobbly. I feel they are realistic if taken slowly but also ambitious enough not to be... a waste.

I'm not sure if this is what you were asking.
*******************************
Yes, I was asking about what you'd like the friendship to look like.  I can tell you've put a lot of thought into them.

As far as the gaming, thoughts about a platonic relationship and the conversational/spiritual/magick connection that explains a lot.  I don't know exactly what to say, but again you've put a lot of thought into this and it sounds to me like you do have a few levels of "goals" about what your friendship w/him now could be like.  Correct me if I'm wrong but this is what I'm hearing as options (I see w/the next question you describe friendship levels quite well, but I think that I'll leave these as another perspective):
1.    Be in a relationship – not an option, he's said no
2.   Have intimate conversations again
3.   Be civil and able to be around him w/o experiencing much pain

You explain everything in a logical and kind way here, have you expressed yourself in that manner to him?  Maybe you have and if not maybe he could hear these words?  I don't know.  Either way, you stating what you'd like (to him or to yourself) and then going about it seems like it would help.
I can relate to the platonic concept a lot.  I haven't dated for about 7 months after 30+ years of not going more than about 2 months w/o a BF or husband (married 22 yrs.)  After my last breakup and with the abandonment stress that comes w/C-PTSD I think I'm simply protecting myself and committed to getting to know someone well, maybe for 6 months?  A year?, before taking it to the next level.  Not many guys are interested in that at my age it seems so I'm learning to be happy alone.  To love and rely on myself.  It isn't easy, but it's my only choice at the moment.

Quote from: C. on July 12, 2015, 11:49:23 AM
5.   Should I be friends with this person?
Do you think that you could be friends right now and feel ok about that?  Not have expectations of reuniting?  What would friends look like to you?  From what you've described of his response and your pain it seems that could be difficult right now.

Quote from NyxBean:  I'm more wondering if he sounds like a friend who could be healthy in himself. I'm unsure.

As for expectations of reuniting, no. Maybe hopes but I wouldn't think it would happen, partially because I know how he spoke of exes and have spoken to exes he is friends with. As well as that, when I think about it objectively, I'm more 65/35 about wanting it and that keeps dropping. I could only see myself fully wishing for it after he's had a year or two of therapy (same with me) and I'm supposing that by that time it would be a different place. I also would not want to mess up the chance of getting to play tabletop. It's silly I should be so focused on that and it is, as I said, not the main reason, but it would matter so much to me that I truly believe it would override silliness.

I could be okay enough with it as I have a plan of contact: low, medium, full friends. Low contact remains online and at first might only have to do with projects or even simply knowing they are there. I probably wouldn't start conversations if my questions have been answered. I'm pretty sure I told him that would be needed before friends. That's too ensure no weird messages.

Medium contact is when you can meet up in neutral areas (neither's house), starting of with making sure it is only with at least one other friend. No restaurants together alone, not even cafés. Eventually medium contact ramps up to having friends round at one another's houses, but you leave before the last person does. This contact can be kept for as long as wanted, needed, or perhaps it stays like that, though that's awkward friendship to me.

Full friends is when you can go bowling with just you and the other person, even be at their house with them alone. That takes ages though, I imagine, and you have to avoid stuff like drinking, etc.

I wrote a whole blog post on my view of post-relationship contact, actually.    (the only laugh smiley seems over the top)

Friends would mean being there to chat when the other person has nobody else to get it out to, being there to offer advice, sending links to things the other person would find cool. That's about it, I suppose and the first two would be at low levels during low contact. I suppose I'm too systematic.

*******************************
I don't think the the tabletop or gaming are silly.  They sound like important self-care parts of your life and important to be able to keep doing.  I used to love dancing and hiking.  I found someone who shared my passion for those activities but after our breakup I'm struggling to find enjoyment in them again and not experience them as triggers.  From that experience I've decided to protect those important self-care activities for me w/any future relationship.  And I want to do those activities again so I'm trying to figure out how to fit them in to my life again.  It sounds like you are able and interested in doing these activities, just figuring out how to do them w/the change in your relationship to your ex.

And your description of friendship levels seems spot on.  Perhaps you could act on the "low contact" level and see where that takes you?  Maybe explain some of this to him and find out what he'd like to have?

You mention that he's in contact w/his exes.  If you know them maybe one of them could help give you insight on how to do so?

Quote from: C. on July 12, 2015, 11:49:23 AM
7.   With this small amount of information, is he acting normally or is my carer right in that he is beginning to verge towards cruel?
He sounds angry.  Trust your gut if you can so to speak.  What do you think?

Quote from Nyxbean: I don't know. He does have the ability to hold strong grudges and be quite vindictive but the instances I've witnessed don't really add up to what occurred in our relationship unless his rather strong paranoia has taken over. I don't believe I did anything wrong apart from being ill during the relationship and then my shameful spiral. I didn't even say too much that was terrible, surprisingly, and he surpassed me in "insults".

So if he's paranoid then who knows? He could view me as some kind of Gorgon for... some complex and half-fabricated reason.

If he isn't, I think he's more angry at my honest making him feel guilty, which I don't intend to do.

I don't even know if he's angry though, that's the thing. He's not acting in a way I had anticipated. I'm trying to think of other emotions. Just guilt in himself misdirected? Really unsure.   

*******************************************

Hmmm.  Emotions can be so confusing and messy.  He may not know how he feels either.  And it probably changes for him as it does for you.  That's the nature of grief.  Sadness, fear, anger, guilt...
One thought that comes to mind would be for you to learn about Personality Disorders and Attachment Types.  There's a lot of info. on the web as well as Out of the Fog.  But both of you sound like you have challenges around attachment so understanding yourself and him will help.  In summary as I understand it there's anxious, distant and "healthy" attachment styles for adults.  The titles describe them pretty well.  Anxious and distant are a volatile mix, healthy can match up w/either, and if both are either anxious or distant I'm not really sure...

Hopefully you can pay attention to how he treats you and know for yourself if what he says seems inappropriate.  That's a big topic on how to see it and then how to respond.  As a victim of emotional abuse I thought abusive behavior was normal for a long time.    I've had to learn what emotional abuse is, what emotional neglect is, and how to be assertive (still struggling w/that one). 
Regards your caregiver, I'm cautious about taking other people's perspectives as my own, on the other hand sometimes they can see things that I don't see so listening may be important.  Ultimately I trust you to decide what you think at this point in time.

Quote from: C. on July 12, 2015, 11:49:23 AM
8.   If he doesn't answer at all, meaning likely that he doesn't care, how stupid would it be to send a text to see if he read the response and why would it be stupid/not stupid?
You mention that he felt criticized from the video.  Another reason he might not respond would be to avoid pain and/or because for him this relationship is done.  How would you feel if he doesn't answer the text?

Quote from NyxBean: Angry, mostly at what I would consider a lack of empathy/compassion. I know this is me slipping backwards in my self-imposed training but if I had to vigorously teach myself how to do right by others and he had 7 - 8 years on me then it's less easy to forgive without knowing the reasons for certain.

I would rather he respond by telling me to stop contacting for good than to say nothing at all. Of course, a response saying he'll look and answer is the ideal.
*********************************************************
Pete Walker talks about the four "coping" strategies that people learn through abuse/neglect that become extreme and less healthy.  They are fight, run, freeze or fawn (sp?).  It sounds like he's "running" to me.  In that state people often don't respond.  They can't.
I asked this question b/c it's probably important to be prepared.  In my experience I've opted not to text if I think that the most likely response will cause me stress.  Whatever you decide, you sound aware.

Quote from: C. on July 12, 2015, 11:49:23 AM
9.   How do I get closure if I need answers and he won't give any? I've heard "just stop thinking about it" and "time" as responses already but they don't help me in the here and now.
Again, the challenge and anxiety of the unknown.  What are processes that work for you?  Writing?  Recording? Poetry?

Quote from NyxBean: I've been doing some poems. Wrote out the background of a horror story but can't get into it because of the emotion. Started a blog but it's moving slowly for the same reason. Going to try to get out with friends soonish even though agoraphobia is not being great. Got out to see a Titan Arum.

My flatmate/carer suggested the cinema but that's scary for some reason. If a few people said bowling then I'd really try to go.

I was also trying to arrange a group to game with but they are scatterbrained and my carer hasn't helped yet. I don't want to push him on it because of his burnout.

Sounds like you have some self-care ideas.  I hope you aren't too hard on yourself as you integrate them into your new life.  What you're going through is difficult and you're doing the best that you can.  I've found that the simple act of writing helps me heal.  I've mostly let go of an end product at the moment if that makes sense.  Maybe write simply for the sake of writing?  And cheers to your plans to get together w/others.  It sounds like you have social connections.  I sometimes find that simply going to a store w/a kind clerk and relying on the "kindness of strangers" can help me feel connected and supported socially.  The internet feels like an in-between to me.  Middle earth?  I am alone writing but thinking about another person so it's social in that sense.

Quote from: C. on July 12, 2015, 11:49:23 AM
11.   Why won't he tell me to go away if he doesn't like me?
Because he also doesn't want to hurt you.

Quote from NyxBean:  To me, that's really, really, really stupid. a) you don't like the person, and b) there's a million and one ways to tell them not to contact and almost half are compassionate. I hope this is not the case because I find it a little daft. Then again, I'm one to tell people what I think, though I've learned to do it nicely. Sometimes I slip but I know it is better to be blunt than kind. Cruelty has no place in that saying.
************************************
In hindsight I'm not sure my answer is accurate.  And his reasoning may vary.  He may not know.  As frustrating as it is, you may not know for a while.

Quote from: C. on July 12, 2015, 11:49:23 AM
14.   Should he be keeping the diagnoses he knows and the one he was as certain as I was in mind when dealing with me?
Not sure I understand this question.

Quote from NyxBean:  Well, now that he is not a partner but an apparently intended friend, should he not first consider my diagnoses and the one he himself is certain of while he's responding? I tried my hardest to alleviate any concerns of accusations as I know his anxiety and paranoia, but they're more ingrained than I had imagined.
It sounds like you have empathy and think of his feelings regards your actions.  Maybe he's less skilled in that way?

Quote from: C. on July 12, 2015, 11:49:23 AM
I hope that you have or are looking in to therapy?

Quote from NyxBean: Got a psychologist, psychiatrist, should be getting help from social work, and if I'm diagnosed I will have access to an autistic adults service here in my city which has... well, lots of useful groups and support sources. Unfortunately my psychologist says that we should wait until after the assessment to begin therapy proper and we don't know when they will see me. I do have a checkup appointment with her soon so maybe I'll find out if she knows how long it will take - actually irrationally frightened that she'll tell me that she's changed her mind for now.

Currently looking anywhere for self-help and outlets, though during dangerous times have considered a stay at the Crisis Centre. Really though, I couldn't handle that as they'll want to talk a lot and I don't have much to say, or at least anything I haven't said a million times by now. I also hated it when the Crisis Team were visiting my house: loads of different doctors, nurses, and a psychiatrist appearing and asking me the same old questions.

************************************
It sounds like you're being proactive.  You have begun the process to have therapy.  You have self-help outlets.  You know that you could contact the Crisis Centre if needed.  I hope that you can continue to see the steps that you're taking to heal.  You're young.  It may sound cliché, but honestly you have a 20 year gain on me w/recovery.  I started at about 45 yrs old.

And for some reason responding to you is helping me to process my own experience.  Especially the question about what would friendship look like w/my ex and the feeling of abandonment.  I am thinking about all of these questions, yours and mine, for myself as well.  So thank you.


Quote from NyxBean:  Anyway Thanks again for the response and I hope I wasn't too confusing.

**********************************************

Not confusing to me at all.  Hope these responses aren't too difficult to follow.  And please take my words w/a grain of salt so to speak.  You know yourself best so whatever works for you great, whatever doesn't you're free to discard.

[NyxBean]

Some minor contact and a whole lot of fuss has happened.

He basically refuses to believe he could ever have me not understand him even though he kept telling me about muddling his words and his assertion that Aspergers is almost definite in me. It's like he lives in two separate realities at the same time.

I also learned a few things from an ex or two which just... no. I won't go into it because I gave the link for this forum to the one ex of his I won't speak to now. I made that decision due to knowing I wouldn't be able to hold my tongue on a few matters. Let them know this before blocking on FB.

He proposed not talking for 9 months then maybe be acquaintances after greeting me at the next gaming convention then perhaps friends after several years. I told him that would not work for me, that the length of time would burn bridges in my mind, and if that was his decision then I would have to go no contact for good due to protecting my own mental stability. He'd been talking down to me and angry the whole conversation due to me having been angry-texting one night (I fully apologised for this at the start of the hour+ long convo and asked if there was anything I was missing, any point I needed to address; he never mentioned anything). As I was going he immediately switched from tyrant to "caring" with what sounded like the most fake and patronising voice, tell ME that he hoped I would find help through therapy.

Tried to keep a level voice as I told him that I hope he'd find out who he is through his and got this again fake-sounding and wistful "Me too".


Originally thought C-PTSD and FLEAS. Doubting it now. I was frustrated and... okay, really furious for a few days afterwards. Then I became almost obsessed about somehow working out how to explain the issues I was seeing and giving my compromise scenarios.

Then I listened to a lot of songs from the Thirteenth Step album by A Perfect Circle as well as "3 Libras" and "Passive".

It dawned on me: they fit perfectly and nearly every song on the album is a huge warning sign. That album is all about, as you can read in footnote [1]:

"The songs on Thirteenth Step for the most part are about the various processes of addiction, behavioral addictions, chemical addictions, and each song is kind of sung from a different perspective. I've a lot of friends who've gone through a lot of these situations. Some of the songs are sung from the perspective of the actual drug, from the perspective of someone who has realized that they have an issue or a problem, also from the perspective of a person who realizes that if they don't do something they're going to die, a song from the perspective of a person who is in denial about a loved one, dying right before their eyes. And in the case of "The Outsider", it's sung from the perspective of a person who doesn't understand at all what their friend is going through, what their loved one is going through, and they think that it's more like a sprained ankle; they can just kind of walk it off."

When you look at the lyrics of certain songs, there's a way I can explain. I think, however, the two I mentioned outside of that fit. I'll show you the main parts as maybe you can appreciate finding... truth in music.



Passive [2] (In concept it doesn't seem so far from the songs on the album I mentioned, will have to look up)

Wake up (can't you) and face me (come on now),
Don't play dead (don't play dead)
Cause maybe (because maybe)
Someday I'll (someday I'll) walk away and say, "You f-----g disappoint me!"
Maybe you're better off this way

Go ahead and play dead
I know that you can hear this
Go ahead and play dead
Why can't you turn and face me?
Why can't you turn and face me?
Why can't you turn and face me?
Why can't you turn and face me?
You f-----g disappoint me!

3 Libras [3] This is the whole song actually. Fits ridiculously well. As in so much that it was a punch in the stomach. And you know? He's a Libra. Three Libras, all the damn masks. I'm not entirely sure of the real interpretation except maybe fame.

Threw you the obvious and you flew with it on your back,
A name in your recollection, down among a million same.
Difficult not to feel a little bit disappointed, and passed over
When I've looked right through, see you naked but oblivious.

And you don't see me.

But I threw you the obvious, just to see if there's more behind the
Eyes of a fallen angel, eyes of a tragedy.
Here I am expecting just a little bit too much from the wounded
But I see, see through it all, see through, see you.

'Cause I threw you the obvious, to see what occurs behind the
Eyes of a fallen angel, eyes of a tragedy, oh well.

Oh well, apparently nothing.
Apparently nothing, at all.

You don't, you don't, you don't, see me.
You don't, you don't, you don't, see me.
You don't, you don't, you don't, see me.
You don't see me.
You don't, you don't, you don't see me at all.

I promise to go through your response because you took the time to write it and there's likely something there. I don't know, I have a headache and the neighbours have almost caused me to go into a furious autistic-like meltdown two days in a row. It's almost as bad as misophonia. It's draining me.


Anyway, hands washed of him. Not even wanting to compromise anymore. I gave all the chances and got rubbish in return. So if he has the delusion to come to try to shake my hand next year, I'm walking away to another area of the convention without a word at all. I don't know if it's fair but once I finally reach the breaking point, it's done. I spend so much energy trying to at least meet people halfway, everybody in fact, even in minor situations because I just don't function neurotypically either because of the spectrum or something else. I get eaten through every day not only by C-PTSD but also that. I think that it is fair to draw the line.

The way he treated me, the things I see in a now balanced light rather than ignoring them for the sake of loving him, the matters I've been told about by others, observations of his life when we were together... it has combined and I think the space for him in my heart has shriveled and turned black.

Do I think that will ever change? I don't know but according to my history of people... no.


Sorry for the downer, hope you might like the music if you can handle alternative rock.


[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirteenth_Step
[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMe4kVNKvNk
[3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EoqXDPbivFs

[C.]

Hello Nyxbean,

I'm sorry that things have turned out so completely negative regards communicating w/him.  On the other hand I noticed that you seem quite aware both of what you want and feel as well as what to expect from him (nothing and cruelty?).  Also that you're aware of your own actions as well as his.  As painful as this might have been it sounds to me like you're pushing through to the other side of something painful.

No need for you to read through my responses.  I do not mean for you to feel obligated to do so.  I'm sorry if any were too long or wrong.  I, like many here I think, am learning how to give and receive support so I apologize if what I've written triggered you in any way.  My answers are lengthy and may not even be relevant to you now.  I offered my ideas in part because I could see you making such an effort to learn and understand.  And because I saw some similarities w/my own experience.  So I want to support you, but I also learn myself in the process.

I know that for myself my last three break ups set me on such a downward spin w/my self-esteem that I've decided to really take a break from romance.  To find friends and support, but I just don't want to go through the abandonment again.  It's very bad for my mental health.  And I think I'm healthy enough now not to need the romantic attention.  I'm not saying that should be the choice that you make.  I'm sure that whatever you decide about romance/friendship/partnering will be best for you right now.

I'm not sure if you see it but from what I can see you've come a long ways in understanding, accepting and moving out of a painful break up.

[NyxBean]

I'm not saying that should be the choice that you make.

I'm about 90% sure it is the decision I have also come to, actually. I've tried to make that choice int the past but before I inevitably came to the point where I was lonely. I am not sure if it is the probable Aspergers -- can't believe I am still waiting for the evaluation! -- but the sad thing is I have only been able to believe (falsely) that another person understands me if I have been physical with them and are now in a relationship. If I am diagnosed I'll have access to services through which I might meet people who understand me to a decent point without me feeling like I have to... give me to them. Ugh. I don't know where it came from.

if what I've written triggered you in any way

Not at all. I'd say I have odd triggers in the sense that where you would imagine some would be if you knew me there is just nothing there and where you wouldn't expect it I get all weird. Usually I tend not to get triggered online unless it's an article going in depth about various people, etc. or it is an abusive message. I'm lucky.

I'm not sure if you see it but from what I can see you've come a long ways in understanding, accepting and moving out of a painful break up.

Maybe and maybe not. Just sent a long letter to his mother, the only one he'll listen to, explaining in a hopefully polite matter all of what was worrying. It's written in a tone of concern for him, which is truthful. I also assure her I don't want to talk to him again so there's no worry of that, also true.

I felt it was important to warn of the manners in which I don't see a crime but which others most possibly could. I state that for me, I had no reason to report anything because I did not feel... well, the necessary emotions for that, but it is concerning that he might meet somebody who will feel differently.

Started with small concerns, worked up to the big ones, explained how I thought she could help and how it is difficult to tell how your adult children are at all time, and then just went through the scenarios of the letter and the fact that I'm willing to face all the consequences to what I consider the right thing to do.

She already assumed I was autistic when she met me and I haven't had angry messages from her or her daughter like other exes did in the past. I hope this means she will not think I mean any harm.

I don't know. It could be seen as harassment due to that night I sent angry messages to him at some point but I apologised on the phone for that and established no contact, blocking him everywhere. I hope anybody with sense will see I'm trying to help. On the other hand, I suppose a charge of harassment would be unlikely if certain issues might find it backfiring on you.

So the worst is I get a bunch of squallers and I block them and he doesn't get the help he actually needs.


I'm not sure why I care. I have no intention of talking to him, I don't think I like him very much, but I apologised for him quite a bit and it's sent in the spirit of making one of the major people in his life hopefully aware of issues he has and could face.

It might be a sense of duty. I have been whining that nobody will stand up and speak when I need it, yet I wasn't doing so here. There's the argument of whether I had the "right" to do so, even if I was concerned. My very drunk friend (who types ridiculously well when out of his box and has a Masters in Creative Writing) was warning me and I thought it was to do with ethics. It turned out he actually saw nothing wrong in what I was doing or why, merely was worried that I didn't know what trouble I could get into.


Most people will say what I did was wrong and it has nothing to do with me anymore. I can't really respond to that further than a shrug and say that my moral compass sets my way and it wasn't intended as malicious.

I don't think I will regret it any time soon; it took me hours to type out.

[Dutch Uncle]

Hello NyxBean,

I realize I jump in a bit late, but I read your post of today and decided I'd read the whole thread as a follow up. My reply will take bits and pieces from your various posts.

I want to reply first and for most to this:

I am not sure if it is the probable Aspergers -- can't believe I am still waiting for the evaluation!

That's an uncomfortable situation, which I have experienced myself.
I was questioning myself if I had a Personality Disorder and had a SCID-II test taken. It took them 5 weeks to come up with the result, and in the meantime I was under the impression it would take only a week or so.
So I know how hard it is to wait for a result on a pretty important aspect of your life  .
Hang in there, I commend you for having taken the step to have a professional take a look at something so private and personal. 

Your "probable Aspergers" as you call it pops up regularly:

Got a psychologist, psychiatrist, should be getting help from social work, and if I'm diagnosed I will have access to an autistic adults service here in my city which has... well, lots of useful groups and support sources. Unfortunately my psychologist says that we should wait until after the assessment to begin therapy proper and we don't know when they will see me. I do have a checkup appointment with her soon so maybe I'll find out if she knows how long it will take - actually irrationally frightened that she'll tell me that she's changed her mind for now.

I suffered a similar frustration while waiting for my results. I do understand though (and have learned to accept) that no treatment can start without a reliable (=test based/evidence based) diagnosis. Treatment is invasive by definition, and a 'wrong' treatment could exacerbate the problem at hand.
I do understand you want to start any treatment NOW, I've had the same craving.
But it's not the order of things in (medical)science, and there are very good reasons for it. Having said that, it STILL is frustrating, I know.

I spend so much energy trying to at least meet people halfway, everybody in fact, even in minor situations because I just don't function neurotypically either because of the spectrum or something else. I get eaten through every day not only by C-PTSD but also that.

and

I have some questions:

2- don't know how much is the C-PTSD and how much is the probable Aspergers. Although I suppose it isn't that important, I'm sort of looking for thoughts on that?

To start with the latter: My guess is that it does matter. From my understanding, which is limited I want to add, cPTSD and Aspergers are two very distinct topics. I guess Aspergers could trigger cPTSD, so the two might be related/intertwined in your case.
And going by all the posted on the subject of Aspergers, it is obvious that the question of your self-diagnosed Aspergers is an important one for you.
I do so wish you will receive an answer/diagnose soon. I'm pretty sure that the result will help you put your mind at ease.



As for your relationship with your ex: you have settled that: 

He proposed not talking for 9 months then maybe be acquaintances after greeting me at the next gaming convention then perhaps friends after several years. I told him that would not work for me, that the length of time would burn bridges in my mind, and if that was his decision then I would have to go no contact for good due to protecting my own mental stability.
[...]
Anyway, hands washed of him. Not even wanting to compromise anymore. I gave all the chances and got rubbish in return. So if he has the delusion to come to try to shake my hand next year, I'm walking away to another area of the convention without a word at all. I don't know if it's fair but once I finally reach the breaking point, it's done.
[...]
I think that it is fair to draw the line.

Excellent.  You go Girl!

I did write some answers to your questions in the opening post, but quite a few are moot now 
I do want to share some answers that may still have some merit:

5- Should I be friends with this person?

If you want to, yes. But only if he wants it too. And the 'terms' of your friendship will be different than the 'terms' of your relationship. Whatever the follow-up will be after your break-up, it will be different from what it was. If you don't want to be friers on these new terms, you can decide you should not be friends with him.
When I later read the whole thread, you actually said the same  :

I could be okay enough with it as I have a plan of contact: low, medium, full friends.
[...]
I wrote a whole blog post on my view of post-relationship contact, actually.  (the only laugh smiley seems over the top)

That's pretty awesome 

I suppose I'm too systematic.

Systematic, yes. Too systematic? You're just as systematic as you like/feel comfortable with. That's OK.

6- I know I have not been decent, pestering him when the C-PTSD panic has taken over; I'm yet to receive therapy though and I'm trying my hardest - am I a bad person?

You are most definitely NOT a bad person.

13- How long does it tend to take you to get over a bad break up and how do you personally cope? I've only loved two others before this, I'm still not over them, and they were both entirely different situations than this with much more complication. I don't remember what it was like.

In my three experiences it took me a year.

15- Possible Aspie confusion: he's acting as if he doesn't care or even actively resents me. How could this be if it is not the case?

Assuming you are an Asperger (and I'm not sure at all I even know what that actually means): For many people (to whom the Asperger community refers to as NeuroTypicals if I'm not mistaken) things are often not that 'black and white'. If I may use an example: Anyone 'acting' one doesn't care may mean that at the present moment one does not know HOW to care. That doesn't mean one doesn't care at all.

and good luck in all your endeavors,
Dutch Uncle.

[NyxBean]

I'll come back to this but rigid this/that thinking is actually common in Aspergers though it has different ways of presenting than in, say, BPD.

I've got to go out and such, was just checking but felt the need to clarify that for now. Thanks for the response.

EDIT: Oh bother, I read your sentence wrong. So my response is now: thanks for the clarification.