Self Reliance and Loneliness

[astronaut]

I've been feeling really low the last few weeks, even though nothing has really changed and I thought I was coping.

Struggling with staying awake, I just want to lie down and sleep so much. The things which have been there for me as a foundation for years - the morning cup of tea, sexual activity, my personal projects - haven't any taste for me any more and I find it hard to justify doing anything for myself beyond buying takeaways. I don't recognise this person who is me. They've literally never been in my life before.

I was just reminded it was my 41st birthday by one of those automated emails you get from some nameless website you signed up to years ago and I just don't know how pathetic to feel. I'd completely forgotten it was my own birthday. When I read the email I wondered how they'd got my wrong birthday on file, until I had a cold dawning that they were right. Right now I'm wondering whether anyone will remember me before midnight. I'm starting to wonder whether there's a me, a person with ideas and wants which actually exists. I keep visualising the movement of a revolver to my head and thank my lucky stars we don't keep guns here. It would be too easy.

How did I get here?

I met a woman six years ago, who I now believe to have a personality disorder. My own way of relating must have made me blind to it, or even maybe somehow drawn to it. My parental history is of both step-parents exhibiting PD symptoms with my natural parents being enablers, and I guess it just felt right to absorb things and be the martyr like that.

When I met her I recognised she was struggling with her own feelings, but always just tried to be there for her. As time went on, and we had a child and moved into a house together, things became darker and what was previously turned in on herself (which I could support her through as an expression of my love for her), became turned outwards on me (where I was used as a perpetrator pawn in her machiavellian triangles).

She revelled in claiming she was being victimised by me, and blamed me for her dark thoughts about herself and threatened more escalation and blame whenever I tried to understand any details about her claims. This somehow healed her, putting her disorder outside herself where she didn't need to own it. It slowly crushed me as I tried to make sense of what I was supposed to have said or done to prompt her perception, and the rejection and vengeful acts which followed as retaliation. After some time I was lucky to earn a glance, or a word, and almost never a touch because of the negativity I was blamed for which somehow could never be specifically described. It felt like a daily torture, and 'walking on eggshells' isn't the half of it. Where others might have died inside, it felt like I had the strength of will and self-reliance to just know that I was doing everything possible, that I was a good person.

It was somehow inconceivable to me that she had an altered reality. Before all the reading I've now done, I think the nature of mental health issues was anathema to me, who prided myself on being a rational achiever. It was beyond my experience that a person would distort reality, self-sabotage and create problems, so I took all her concerns at face value, accepted them and jumped through hoops to resolve them. I spiralled into trying to do the right thing for a person who cannot perceive your true nature, and whose real reason for punishing you is to be a punisher.

Nevertheless I lived with the guilt and consequences of somehow being the villain for all those years. I slowly suppressed my contributions to our life choices which might serve what I wanted out of life, as I was trained to fear serious consequences from expressing anything which took the attention away from her.

The simplest statement of the problem has come down to 'how can I stop doing something which you never describe and which I don't think I'm doing in the first place'. There was no other way to make sense of what was happening, except that my partner had a personality disorder. Reading about BPD was a godsend, in which suddenly literally everything she did was in the playbook. I can't think of a single thing she does which isn't in the OOTF list.

Armed with that knowledge I became stronger. By this point, reading the literature about the evolution of abandonment/engulfment issues I was already anticipating that she would leave me, emasculate me by sleeping with others, then try to get me back. It was almost a relief when she moved out to sleep with other men, as it meant I could change the locks and start to rebuild myself. When she asked to come back I said no. After a period of me looking after our daughter, she was able to make a new home for herself and we now share her care.

The last 4 years since our daughter arrived have included extreme repeated trauma and threats of losing access to my daughter in order for my partner to dictate my behaviour, both during the first 2 years in a house together, and now since the breakup. Almost boiling-frog style, it's as if I didn't notice it happening. She made the most of the expectation that pregnancy and birth would make her the queen of all attention, and the privileged relationship with our daughter, allow her whims to control everything, and as a blanket unchallengable excuse for any amount of negative behaviour on her part. Somehow we never got back to normal after that, but I wonder whether it was ever normal in the first place.

Recently, she has been using our daughter and shared care routines to exact her difficulties, and I am permanently split between whether her denial of her clearly high-conflict behaviour is genuine, or if she is just consciously playing me like a cat with a mouse.

In one phone call, my ex demanded I give up contact days with my daughter, and because I wanted to know the details (e.g. when will I see my daughter, can I check the calendar and get back to you in 10 minutes), she started to rant with abuse and threatened to 'get a solicitor' and move with my daughter 6 hours away, I finally sent a solicitor's letter detailing that this was not acceptable behaviour within a shared care arrangement, expecting the worst by way of retaliation. Within days she was threatening to take me to court for alleged domestic abuse - a continuation of her distorted reality when we were together. Making that claim gives her free legal aid, and the fact she was under a doctor for her anxiety and panic attacks 18 months ago (which she of course blamed on me), apparently qualifies her to get this aid. She announced to my daughter's nursery and her housemates that she was leaving with my daughter within a few months. She kept telling me that the woman statistically will get the child, and that she wouldn't want our daughter to have to hear her (fabricated) stories of abuse.

I held firm, and made clear that I would bring her mental health record into the court if she followed that route, she seems to have backed down. She's now talking about arriving at a mediated solution in which we would share care in our home town just as I was hoping. However, the subtle abuse continues and I think it's finally worn me down.

I wonder whether other deadlines like finding a school for our daughter in Sept 2016 (where she will inevitably go and live with one or other of us) are lurking and making future life seem impossible. I recently got a job and she's been using that freely to manipulate things, cancelling nursery saying she will look after our daughter, then refusing to look after her unless I pay her, telling me that I have to give up my job because she's refusing to agree any suitable nursery to replace the one she cancelled.

During our relationship I ended up with streptococcal psoriasis and more recently was prescribed beta-blockers to cope with what felt like continual adrenaline all day waiting for the next phone call or text with an escalation or threat. I haven't taken the pills yet, but I'm glad they're there as a fallback if I really think I can't cope.

Even about a month ago, I was still experiencing quite intense panic attacks which felt like heart racing, rapid breathing, irritability all when anticipating further escalation (typically if I've had to put down a boundary on her behaviour). However, the last few weeks have been a real change of pace, like my body's finally giving up. I don't know if I can bear any more conflict, and I'm so tempted to just do whatever she wants the moment she says it, to make life livable.

Such a long intro, but it's meant a lot to get it off my chest!

[Boatsetsailrose]

Hello astronaut
Thank you for sharing with honesty and description. I related to a lot you have shared.
I too have just come out of dysfunctional relationship ( again) . My parents are both pd types and my patterns have been very hard to crack -
I'm hoping this last relationship is the last - but at this point in time I can't trust who I gravitate towards in any capacity .
I was working with a child trauma specialist and she said that relationships tend to be our most difficult area to work with - yes indeed !

You provide so much insight into your past relationship and present situation and that can only stand you in good stead for your recovery . Most people know. Nothing of what a pd is let alone the psychology and sociology of it -
I can really relate to the 'absorbing ' and 'supporting ' and 'losing ourselves' this has been my experience too -
Emotionally care taking - the role I was socialised into and the role that is strong in me - even though I've done much personal work - unconscious until it becomes conscious - co dependence at its finest with a good large dollop of low self worth - feeding into my shame and being a bad person - so I do the whole process harder to try and feel better
If I love you harder and accept you more you will love me

Exhausting

Regarding the situation with your daughter ( hope u don't mind me saying - it sounds as if you have been coping for a long time with a very difficult situation and being 'the parent -
Our bodies always show our emotional states and from what u describe - you've reached capacity - ( we have a big capacity don't we ...
May I ask what support you are getting around this situation
Re both your own wellbeing and also the family situation
For me I have definitely learnt that I need a lot of support - and my life is about getting that support and learning my capacity is much smaller than I thought ( I am human not super human
I understand what low mood and high adrenaline is like - wanting to sleep all the time, losing interest in things and being in a self hatred state - here therapy has been very beneficial and also anti depressants ( not that I'm advocating them
Taking care of ourselves is not inherent in u s we have to learn it - and learn it fast in some cases - when things are shutting down its the signs we need to take note - our bodies do speak our minds I believe
Quote 'I can't bear anymore conflict '
Yes I can relate to this - I just this week left a 4 yr difficult relationship - for this very reason
And actually not bearing something that has been difficult is no bad place to be - it's just what we do with our choices at these points that is important - I'm a big believer in seeking support - agencies - therapy - other people -
I'm sure throwing in the towel is not what u want to do after all the good work you have done to keep getting yourself out of dysfunction - and when enough is enough other measures are often needed to help - ie 'bring in the re enforcements
Be kind to you - take it steady

That where I am at right now - I can't sort everything today but I can work to be kind to myself and support myself with help to stay saine ..
The universe wants a good life for us and it is there if we know how to clear the wreckage of the past. My problems are me - hard to swallow but true
Cptsd is well - complex and effects us on a lot of levels
Someone said to me recently 'don't focus on him and what is wrong with him ' focus on you and what u need to do for you ' I like that
I have a mental health problem and I need many things to keep me growing -
We have this day to not slump in front of the TV but both look at getting support and supporting ourselves
I send you many best wishes for this phase in your recovery
Take lots of rest and talk about your mental health to a health care professional - low mood turns into depression and depression in my experience can take me to dark places which are not good for me

[Dutch Uncle]

Welcome astronaut, and congrats on turning 41. You've come a long way.

Thanks for your well written and clear introduction. It's a complex, difficult and indeed stressful situation you are in. Hats off for the way you are dealing with it, with awareness, patience and diligence. You take such good care of your daughter, and take such great effort to not let the manipulation of your ex get in the way of the care your want to give to your kid. Bravo.

The simplest statement of the problem has come down to 'how can I stop doing something which you never describe and which I don't think I'm doing in the first place'. There was no other way to make sense of what was happening, except that my partner had a personality disorder. Reading about BPD was a godsend, in which suddenly literally everything she did was in the playbook. I can't think of a single thing she does which isn't in the OOTF list.

Quite probably you are right, and I assume you've already read up on 'the three C's' (didn't cause it, can't cure it, can't control it) and the '50% rule' (you're responsible only for half of what goes in your relationship with anybody). By the looks of it you already have implemented a lot of that since you gained awareness of your ex's presumed PD. 

I'm sorry to hear your ex keeps using your daughter as a pawn, and even uses her to meddle in your working life now that you have found a job. It seems that with every step you take forward, she sees it as an opportunity to hold you back. That is a very stressful situation, and I understand it makes you feel tired and resign to her ever present demands. It's great you have been given some medication to cope with that. Keep in touch with your GP on your stress levels.

Take care, and I hope we'll be seeing more of you.

[steamy]

Hi Astronaut,
Sorry to hear of your troubles sounds a lot like you have been through a pretty terrible time. It must be very tough going through this, I have friends who tell similar stories.
I can't help noticing how much you focus on your partners problems and how little on your own. I remember spending half of my £100 an hour therapy sessions telling my therapist how bad my ex has been an not taking the opportunity to fix myself. My ex agreed to go into therapy and to my shock was discharged within a month with no problems. What I want to say is that a few therapists that I have read suggest that we look for partners that remind us of our parents, we can therefore subconsciously set out in a bad direction out of choice, the second thing is that often we stay in dysfunctional relationships because on some level we get something out of them. The book "fear of intimacy by "ROBERT W. FIRESTONE AND JOYCE CATLETTtalks about these bonding patterns. The second great book is" why we love" by Helen Fisher that explains love and relationships in terms of neurochemistry. * hath no fury like a woman scorned due to her brain pumping out a ton of neuro chemicals designed by nature to make her aggressive to protect her children, in modern times these mechanisms are used in other ways and women are often seen as crazy heartless bitches. Fisher also backs up the parent attraction theory by suggesting that we are programmed to fall in live with people who are like out parents because on a basic level we survived childhood and therefor are the best model we have. As soon as we have sec or brains pump out dopamine, seratonin and oxytocin and for half a dozen years we live in a brain drug fueled purple haze. We are thereby able to tolerate or partners obvious faults because when we are with them we produce more chemicals and when we are not we go into child Turkey and our chest hurts like * (we miss them). Society is pretty deaf and blind to science and we often judge peoples behaviour rather than the circumstances behind it. I am not defending your wife of course, although in a way I am, as many of us are not aware of how we are behaving and what affect it has on people around us. Emotional intelligence is pretty low on most peoples agenda. We live in a world of pain and most of us act out the inner pain that we harbour, not because we want to but because we have little choice. I am not sure that this is helping you much but the books are excellent.
I do hope that having had to experience all this as a small child that your daughter has not suffered, I would imagine that it has not been easy for her either. While we often think of kids as strong and stoic I Bernice the opposite is true, kids are deeply affected.
Best wishes
Steamy

[steamy]

Sorry for the typos. I am using a tablet with autocorrect. Lol

[astronaut]

Thanks everyone for coming back to me. I really needed to share where I was.

I'm not sure I'm making a lot of progress, but at least I've scheduled some counselling sessions to get my Ex out of my head, thanks @boatsetsailrose. Also thanks to @DutchUncle for validating and @steamy for challenging.

Relative to some difficulties others have, the fact my life has flatlined is hard to see as any real drama. However, I'm really not used to having anything positive in my life or my future. I'm not that kind of person. Usually I'm super-busy moving towards a million things that I'm heavily motivated to do. For the past few weeks, my default setting is closer to self-sabotage - avoiding things which need doing, and not doing anything towards my own identity.

@boatsetsailrose sounds like you've had a difficult series of relationships. It's weird that the kind of loving and supportive relationship we want to have steers us towards damaged people. It can't just be bad luck. Eventually we're bound to meet another person who wants to be good to their partner too, but will we be attracted to them? Probably not. Perhaps all the good ones are already taken. Well done for seeing what was happening in your last relationship and having the strength to get out. 4 years is a long time and you must feel a lot towards them.

@steamy I could sense myself reacting negatively towards your post. Although I agree with you in general that we should focus on ourselves, and the Three C's advice is good and emphasises this, the point of view you shared is extremely close to the character of the original abuse, (though I'm sure this isn't intended). My Ex has been gaslighting me for years, seeking to project her self-hatred onto me ( http://outofthefog.net/CommonBehaviors/Gaslighting.html ) .

Her approach to reality is to censor, edit and entirely fabricate as a means of making me believe that the abuse I have experienced is a merry-go-round of 'never happened', 'you deserved it', 'get over it', 'you did this to me!' and so on. I believe it's therefore really important at this stage that I don't focus on myself as that's where I've been for years.

Instead, I need to establish the reality of what has been done to me, the lies which have been forced into my heart about my alleged responsibility, and the actual character of the person who did it (it's hard for me not to feel love and positivity for my Ex even now, but I can't fall into the trap of thinking she's a nice person any more - if I am open to my Ex meaning well, she twists my own self-image into being a terrible villain to explain why she is behaving this way).

In normal relationships this isn't a problem, because someone can behave a certain way and you both have at least some kind of ground truth to rely upon as to what was said and done to get through it. Equally, the other person is likely to be inclined towards resolving the situation. You can therefore both come to terms with things and move onwards, however, in our case reality is endlessly distorted and the other person's contributions systematically create conflict and problems because she is not motivated by trying to have a good life. The opposite is true.

A long-running example illustrates this...

Ex says I want to have daughter tonight because Ex reports she is feeling intensely emotional and needs our 3-year-old's presence as a support [seems pretty crazy to begin with, and typical BPD]
I say, OK, but when will I see her again
Ex refuses that this is a valid question because she self-reports as being in such an emotional state that I should not be thinking of myself
I say can I look at the calendar (I was trying to recall which days I was meant to have her in our regular calendar [chosen up by Ex], and come to a negotiated agreement of how many more nights daughter would be with Ex)
Ex tells me I am being controlling because I want to call her back in 10 minutes then puts the phone down on me

I call back Ex (who is sobbing) 3 minutes later to say she can have daughter in principle but...[ex says "thanks fine" and puts phone down]

I leave it 10 minutes then call back Ex to continue to say I wanted reassurance that daughter wouldn't be affected by Ex's emotional turmoil if I give up my parental time to her
Ex releases a torrent of abuse within which she then denies being in emotional turmoil (even though that's why she originally called) and that I'm making it up. She threatens to get a solicitor and take my daughter away from me 'if I talk to Ex like that'. She asserts that she is only upset because of my controlling behaviour, and finally puts the phone down on me

Ex refuses to take daughter (as originally requested) regardless of me making plans for daughter to be with Ex. [Ex recalls this later that same week as me refusing her parental time with her daughter]

Given her repeated threats I visit a solicitor and they advise for me to write a letter clarifying our shared care arrangement (shared care has been mutual and voluntary until now), the clarification includes an indication that a holiday of up to 2 weeks would be agreed as standard. It made no threat of court, simply a statement of our care arrangement, and a request for her to cease her abusive language and threats.

Ex has a panic attack on receiving the letter, and cannot believe I would do such a thing 'out of the blue'. She denies ever threatening to get a solicitor and take my daughter away from me. However, now I've sent the letter, she will take me to court and take my daughter away from me. [She also later says she didn't realise that a solicitor's letter was just a letter you have received advice about. However, it doesn't in any way change the blame I should feel for how she felt, and it doesn't change that her taking my daughter is still justified]

Ex announces to family, friends, the nursery that she is moving away with our daughter, citing that I had sent her a solicitor's letter out of the blue and she can't bear to live in the same town as me if I am doing things like that.

I finally meet with Ex (who seems at this point to be using this whole thing as a way of reversing my Non Contact) and she says she will agree not to fabricate domestic abuse in court as long as I agree to 4 week holidays instead of 2 week holidays and not to share my stories of her behaviour with daughter's nursery [I was advised to give the nursery the heads-up by child protection because of her BPD so they could monitor on my behalf].

Throughout this, she can't believe that I'm not being friendly to her, as she's a lovely person, and that it's me that is mentally ill because I'm making claims of things which never happened. I actually need to go back to the audio recordings to confirm for my own sanity.


This is a clear sequence of events in which nothing was wrong, and then out of the starting gate we have a series of unnecessary escalations, denials and almost the total breakup of the family (me not having access to my daughter), just because Ex felt like causing a drama and every turn is flipped onto me as being my fault.

Now wind back to a situation when this was happening every minute of every day when we were living together, and where I was brainwashed enough to doubt myself, whilst sacrificing every moment of time and shred of self-respect to try and fit with her agenda out of love. You'll understand @steamy why the suggestion that I should reflect more on the contribution I made to our relationship difficulties doesn't go down well.

I need to reflect on the choices I make, but accepting the blame is exactly where I'm getting out from.

[arpy1]

i just read this thread, astronaut and i wonder if an article that really helped me might help you, at least to reassure you that you're not crazy, but that living with a crazy-maker can make you believe you are. it's got a really long title and sounds heavy but it was so helpful to me in clarifying just what happens in a relationship with a particular kind of narcissistic personality.

it's called: The Relational System of the Traumatising Narcissist
it's written  by a guy called Daniel Shaw.
you can find it on this website:

www.icsahome.com/articles/the-relational-system-of-the-traumatizing-narcissist

Hope it helps. keep strong 

[astronaut]

Thanks, arpy1

It certainly resonates...

"If their significant others (spouses, siblings, children) attempt to assert their needs, this sort of narcissist is skilled at making such efforts out to be shameful, hurtful, and selfish."

...and that's the projected self-hatred I accepted into myself all the time until I had almost disappeared as a person... 

The weird thing was that I hadn't noticed that I was subjugating everything of myself to allow her identity to control everything. The impression I was somehow left with was that the reverse was true (of course). I'm really glad to have had some enduring hobbies and interests which I began to realise had totally gone from my life, and after the 20th time of asking for some space for those things in my life, it became clear that there was payback for me attempting to have a life of my own, or to expect support of my own identity. Of course as a parent, we needed to coordinate if I was to go out and do any of my outward-bound hobbies. Shockingly Ex was going out up to 6 nights a week with me looking after daughter, while any attempt for me doing something for myself one day a fortnight led to recriminations, blame, withdrawal, threats.

It took all that before it became clear to me what was going on! Suggests there's something wrong with me that I wasn't sensitive to it, to be honest. She somehow positioned herself as deserving of forgiveness and that criticising her was never acceptable, all the while that I couldn't take a breath without being blamed for something.

Taking a step back I wonder if there was a time when Ex just thought she could get away with anything at and I wouldn't even notice, simply because she had nothing but contempt for me and couldn't care less what I felt or did. Hence things got escalated until a point I really couldn't possibly accept it any more. I think at that point she wanted to tone things down and get back together - to fined the maximum-exploitation she could put me through without me leaving, but I'd got wise to her problems by that point.

[arpy1]

i completely relate to what you just wrote, it was a similar thing, tho with totally different circumstances, with my ex.

thing was, for nearly twenty years, he did get away with it.(my bad). i ended up knowing that i was without any worth whatsoever. the important thing was to look after his feelings, which of course i was never able to do to enough. and the thing i feel awful about is that i taught my kids to do the same.
so when i left him, (once the kids were grown), my daughter was so angry at me for a time. until she got into a similar kind of relationship with a guy and came to me for help. then she was able to understand why i left her daddy, and she went on to deal very firmly with the crazymaking guy, thank god, and has never gone there again! my son was always supportive but i still had to do a bit of making sure he knew he wasn't responsible for making his dad happy even so. i just have to hope i have taught them enough skills, even at this late hour, to protect them in the future.

[astronaut]

@arpy I know what you mean about worrying for the knock-on effect on the kids. Since I think my Ex's issues are to do with BPD, there's a good chance my daughter has the genetic precursors (overactiva amygdala) and I'm desperate that she doesn't develop the same coping mechanisms as her mum (reality distortion, projection of self-hatred, emotional abuse as a means of control) as it will destroy her life and relationships too.

Are you worried that either of the kids would model what he did? My FOO NPD stepmother (who I fortunately only saw for about a month each year) had a similar impact on her daughter, (my half-sister has a lot of the same behaviours), but her son (my half-brother) came out apparently unscathed. Similarly I have a friend whose sister was likely NPD but her child grew up without seeming to suffer from the same, so there's good news too.

I thought I'd come through unscathed, but finding my Ex managed to put me right back in it until I cracked.

[Lifecrafting]

Astronaut,  I feel for you; my daughter is 34 years old now and grew up in much the same environment as you speak of here. My then husband took her away from me (no fault of my own) at the age of 8 yrs until she was 15 and unfortunately, she has a lot of hurt to deal with today because of his manipulative and (seemingly) heartless ways. Ironically, at present, he is in her good favor while I am on the outs. I know she is trying to get the dad she never had back but boy oh boy, watching her go through that is hard.

In my experience with this, I know that I did best I could given the situation at the time - at no time did I dis-respect her father in front of her and most of the time, when I had to communicate with him, I was respectful toward him. Grace, grace, grace. And of course, in as much as I was going through my own stuff, I always did my best to be a good mother to her when she was with me.

What you share here is heartbreaking on so many levels and I know it's not easy. It sounds like you are doing the best you can for your daughter and yourself but first and foremost, you! I was in therapy off and on during the 15 years I had to deal with him (and myself in that) and it was good but what helped me the most is knowing that what I was doing was coming from a place of integrity; in the end, in my thinking, that's all we have as we cannot control outside circumstances and the wrath it can bring.

I wish for you peace in your heart and strength in this day. I will be thinking of you and your little sweetie-pie daughter.

[Lifecrafting]

Arpy, this article is very good reading.

I don't know what the cult experience is like so I can't relate to that part but from what you say, it feels very bizarre to me and for you I feel sad that you had to go through that.

The Relational System of the Traumatizing Narcissist.... I get that.
Not discounting the value of having a starting point "Are you in a relationship with"... type questionnaires, they have their value of course, I find myself in a position of needing to get this question in my mind answered: Am I crazy/ stupid or Am I fighting a losing battle? Both??? To settle  these thoughts I have in a more concrete way, this article helped quite a bit.

To be in a relationship with someone so confusing and time consuming and terrifying so that I am on the brink of... whatever - insanity I feel it most relates to... well...you know, it ain't good. When the barrage of questions about everything that happens outweighs my ability to help myself, it's time. And yet, I'm frozen. I really feel frozen in this world of crazy making. So yes, I am in need of different language concerning the Narcissist and you provided that here.

What really gets me is this statement from the article:
quote]When I speak here of what the traumatizing narcissist is doing, keep in mind that it is being done unconsciously[/quote].
Well. ****!!!

I am a compassionate, empathic human being with the understanding that others hurt and need love, support, encouragement, etc. and maybe I can help him through his stuff and he can help me through mine...
So far, even though I keep trying, I'm hearing this is WRONG. The more I read, the more I understand that "THIS IS HOW IT WORKS - this is their MO."
So there I am. For this moment I have a bit more clarity. I have much gratitude to you for sharing that link.

[coda]

arpy, thank you so much for sharing this link with us. I hope it gets further attention here. While thankfully more and more is being published about these issues, it's rare for me when one really connects on so many levels, when you keep saying to yourself, oh my god yes, that's it --- that's exactly what it's like.

Perhaps it's because (like Pete Walker) the author has gone through a version of this himself, and because he (like us) wanted more answers, better answers. For everyone, that starts with the right questions. I think he's suceeded at framing some of the hardest, most confounding aspects of how people lose their way, their connection with self.

I've often used a cult as an analogy. After my upbringing, after my far too long delayed recognition of family dynamics, it fit. I only really questioned myself for how I dealt with them and ultimately the wider world, rarely the other way around. I simply didn't have the tools, the equipment. This article goes a long way to explaining why.

One of his points that startled & struck me:

I identify two fates of the adult children of traumatizing narcissists: There are those whose traumatization leads them to struggle again and again to know themselves and be recognized as subject, against the powerfully reflexive pull to identify as the object of the other, as the victim, the one who is "done to." Unable to truly separate from the abusing parent, they may spend a lifetime trying to persuade themselves that they are not the unlovable, bad persons they were made to feel they were.

[arpy1]

guys, i am so glad i posted that link now. i wasn't sure but it seems to resonate on many levels. i know for me it was so helpful not only in regard to the cult experience as it enabled me to finally admit the fact that the leader was np, helping me to cut the ties of guilt and fear, but also in regard to my own dad and my ex husband. so i am glad if it helps you too.

astronautyes, i am constantly worrying for my kids. my girl has gone thru some real bad stuff since we lost our littlest just four days befor the start  of her GCSE's. my lad had 5 yrs of CFS around that time as well.
whilst my daughter has come thru a lot and seems to have reached a solid place now, my son is obviously struggling with some stuff. thing is, he has to come to the point of insight for himself - the last person to tell him anything is his old Ma! just doing for him now what i did for her, keeping a good, clear, open, loving relationship wher he can find help if he chooses.
unconditional love is my key word. i might have given em some bad hangups too, but i will always give them love no matter what they are or what their choices are. and not dissing their daddy is very important. they both love him and he, them. i wouldn't spoil that for the world.     much support to you as you negotiate your minefield

[steamy]

I have probably left my reply a bit late, I just found the link for replies to posts.

Astronaut, I apologise for being less than empathetic, I believe in some way I was triggered by your post, my ex was making it clear that all of our problems came down to my mental health issues. She refused to read anything I presented her and i felt completely alone in my struggle. However, I don't mean that as an excuse, and stand by what I said even if it sounds rather cruel. What you have posted since confirms what I have said.

I do think that perhaps your ex is in a significant amount of emotional pain, and in doing so, without a high degree of emotional intelligence will try to hurt others. It would be impossible to expect her to behave in a way that complies with your expectations and/ or societal norms. What ever you do to control her will be seen as a parent punishing a child, if your ex grew up in an abusive family she will view you as threatening her in the way that she was attacked in the past. 

If a person is physically wounded they will bleed and most people will see that what is causing the problem, they will be treated with tenderness and given treatment to heal the wound. With mental health problems this is not the case. The immediate reaction is to see that person as being bad and reject them. The rejection reinforces the pain.

I believe that when your ex started to sense your relationship cooling she started to relive trauma of being abandoned as a child. My own experience of this was that my ex was leaving for a trip to a neighbouring country, I felt deeply that I was loosing her, I desperately wanted to be with her to make our relationship work, I didn't have any income, I had no money, I worked as a volunteer development worker in Asia, I took her visa card and booked myself on her flight, she went crazy. I didn't realise that at the time I saw her as my mother leaving me as a small child. As I became more clingy she withdrew further, my mother used to pretend to commit suicide to teach me a lesson, it used to destroy me, I was fearing the death of my mother. When I couldn't get close I started to do things to hurt her, like go on dates in places she would be, I wanted her to feel how I felt. Of course she had no idea what was going on, I was just being an * to her.

While I have every sympathy for your situation, you have had a terrible time. However, as a person suffering mental health problems I have a certain degree of empathy for your ex, for her to behave in this way is not simply her being bad, it seems that she is a particularly hurt, wounded person who needs love and compassion rather than court orders.

For people with CPTSD we struggle each and every day, with the trauma of our past, we have CPTSD because we could not fight back or walk away, you can do both things, you have choices where we did not. IT IS the hardest thing in the world to deal with somebody whose inner pain makes them act irrationally, its not what society tells us to do, they don't conform, we hit back. I believe what you have experienced is a fraction of what your ex has been through over the course of her childhood.

Kids inevitably suffer, and people who have unexamined mental health problems will pass on their neuroses to their children like everybody else, nobody is 100% healthy. We need to have better ways of dealing with people who have mental health issues, as a society we are all decades behind the science. We know how people behave when they have been abused, nobody wants to know because we live in a world where  we hide our disabilities, we believe in "true love and the happy ending" its just that life is not like that.