Daniel Shaw article about relational system of traumatizing narcissist.

[arpy1]

ok, this is an first attempt at doing a 'new topic'. hope it works!

someone asked if i would put a link, in a new topic, to this very interesting article about the 'mechanics', if you like, of relationships and narcissistic personality. 

it particularly helped me as it deals with the whole aspect of cult involvement but it also is very good on what it is like growing up with a np.

i certainly found it helpful so i hope others will too.

www.icsahome.com/articles/the-relational-system-of-the-traumatizing-narcissist

[Dutch Uncle]

Thanks.

I've read the first bit on what a cult is, and the narcissistic leader.
It's well written, and will read the rest tomorrow.

Off to bed now. 

[Dutch Uncle]

Unable to truly separate from the abusing parent, they may spend a lifetime trying to persuade themselves that they are not the unlovable, bad persons they were made to feel they were. Taking on this badness, which Fairbairn called the child's "moral defense" (Fairbairn, 1952), is the children's best shot at believing the parent is good—it is too horrible to believe that the one they totally depend on is truly bad. Better to take on the burden of the badness, and try and try again to redeem themselves. When the children grow older, and even acknowledge the badness in the parent, the internalized sense of badness is still very difficult to free themselves from. To me, these persons are not merely depressed, or anxious, or deflated—they have lost the battle to develop and assert their own subjectivity; they have been forced to accept objectification; they have had to submit their own subjectivity to the subjectivity of the other.

Good grief. The bolded part really has hit home.
The italicized part I can only hope I'm in now, and win the battle at last after all.

I'll have to digest this a bit before I continue to read the last bit on the ties this all has with cults.

Thanks arpy1, a very interesting and thought-provoking article indeed. 

[coda]

Thanks so much arpy. It's an incredible read, I felt the shock of recognition many times, especially in the section Dutch Uncle quoted. I wonder if there's a word to describe the simultaneous feelings of grief and thankfulness you get when someone nails it like this.

[arpy1]

i was exactly the same, and each time i have read it, the same again. and ditto that paragraph, me too. it explained so much and validated my own experience. i actually have it bookmarked so i can reassure myself from time to time that it wasn't all my fault. i recognised my dad's behaviours, my ex's, the cult leader's, my brother's... such a relief.

[Lifecrafting]

Good one Arpy. This is a very good article; thanks for creating this thread.

coda,

It's an incredible read, I felt the shock of recognition many times, especially in the section Dutch Uncle quoted. I wonder if there's a word to describe the simultaneous feelings of grief and thankfulness you get when someone nails it like this.

Personally, I like your phrase "the shock of realization"; for me, that fits it so perfectly because that is way I have felt over and over again, especially pertaining to this particular statement of Dutch's:

they have lost the battle to develop and assert their own subjectivity; they have been forced to accept objectification; they have had to submit their own subjectivity to the subjectivity of the other.

Thinking about "a word to describe simultaneous feelings of grief and thankfulness", I would call it grace; not to be religious here... but for me, grace comes at a time when I can't necessarily put things together for myself but relief in some form comes from somewhere... does that make sense to anyone else?

[Dutch Uncle]

Thinking about "a word to describe simultaneous feelings of grief and thankfulness", I would call it grace; not to be religious here... but for me, grace comes at a time when I can't necessarily put things together for myself but relief in some form comes from somewhere... does that make sense to anyone else?

As a non-native English speaker (and agnostic) I can only say: I adore your definition of "Grace". 

[coda]

Grace.
Relief.
How utterly beautiful, Lifecrafting. Something golden and true and hopeful that goes beyond words. You don't have to believe in religion to belive in those fleeting moments of recognition and revelation. They're empowering.

To become Subject and not Object -- this actually startled me. Never saw it so plainly. And plainly, the work of my lifetime. To be my own protagonist, inside and out.

i actually have it bookmarked so i can reassure myself from time to time that it wasn't all my fault. i recognised my dad's behaviours, my ex's, the cult leader's, my brother's... such a relief.

I bookmarked it too - illuminating and reassuring. It makes perfect sense that people raised to accept/model/survive controlling behaviors will accept, maybe overlook, maybe even unconsciously be drawn to, what those with a secure center will reject. He also makes a good point about how people can become vulnerable, as natural born seekers of something that seems to offer more intensity, deeper meaning. I think an awful lot of interpersonal abuse starts that way.

I think I also agree with his premise that narcissistic abusers are themselves the product of psychic trauma, and are unaware of what they do. Does that absolve them? There's no doubt they're dangerous, no doubt of the damage they do, no doubt we mustn't subject ourselves...but how do we "blame" someone without real self-awareness? I guess we "simply" avoid them, and then work through the guilt and pain on our own.

[arpy1]

grace - yes it is a beautiful word. i always thought it means something good that is undeserved or unlooked for. like a surprise gift when it's not your birthday. lovely

It makes perfect sense that people raised to accept/model/survive controlling behaviors will accept, maybe overlook, maybe even unconsciously be drawn to, what those with a secure center will reject. He also makes a good point about how people can become vulnerable, as natural born seekers of something that seems to offer more intensity, deeper meaning. I think an awful lot of interpersonal abuse starts that way.

(btw,  Yay, coda, did u notice the quote thing? i did it )

that's interesting, becos i must have been doubly vulnerable... so that's what my T has been trying to get me to see!

as to whether or not these people are aware of what they do or not, i agree it's probably irrelevant for those of us who suffered for it. we just need to avoid them and get free. 

i have to say that whilst people like my dad, my ex, were/are certainly unaware, i do think some people tend towards the socio/psychopathics end of the spectrum, and, firmly convinced of their own 'rightness', lack that empathy which might allow them to see the terrible consequences for anyone else, of their actions    (and here i am thinking of the leader of the cult i was in. he became increasingly intractable as time went on, until he was completely unchallengeable and those who tried, well, enuf said. his need for absolute control precluded any ability he may have started out with to empathise.) sorry. rant over.

[Dutch Uncle]

as to whether or not these people are aware of what they do or not, i agree it's probably irrelevant for those of us who suffered for it. we just need to avoid them and get free. 

I concur. 

[Dutch Uncle]

So, I did read the last bit.

It reminds me of (s)mother, LOL. With what I call her 'new age babble'. She definitely has her guru's. Thank goodness I steered clear of them, even if I was close to being dragged in at times. I only see that now that I've started to get out of the FOG some years ago.

Perhaps most unfortunately, many people have been recruited into cultic groups by their therapists—therapists may have signs on display in their offices of a particular group with which they are affiliated, such as photos of the leader,altars, books, recordings, incense, and other paraphernalia.

Yep, that's my mother's 'office'. But with me she never needed her office  .


Thanks for posting this, arpy1. 

[Kizzie]

Many thanks for the link arpy, it was a really hard and at the same time inspiring read; hard because it nails the traumatizing N and makes abundantly clear the damage they inflict (it's still hard to see that captured in black and white), and relief because it is becoming so much clearer every day that NPDs wreck havoc on those caught in their web.  I like the idea of using the term "traumatizing NPD" to drive home the point that a narcissistic is not merely someone who has a benign love or self, but is someone who causes major chaos and damage to those around them.

I do take some issue with Shaw's suggestion that there are only two paths children of traumatizing N's can take: The first, "To me, these persons are not merely depressed, or anxious, or deflated—they have lost the battle to develop and assert their own subjectivity; they have been forced to accept objectification; they have had to submit their own subjectivity to the subjectivity of the other."  It's a struggle to be sure, but I don't believe I "lost the battle," To me this implies that our subjective sense of self is gone and I haven't found that to be the case.

Instead I've been finding my subjective self, reigniting and reinforcing it, bringing it to the surface and integrating into a whole sense of who I am.  So, I do see a third path for those of us with CPTSD; that is, recovery and integration of our subjective selves. 

The second path for children of traumatizing N I've seen firsthand in my Golden Child B who ended up becoming a traumatizing N himself. "The other path I can identify that adult children of the traumatizing narcissist can take, as I mentioned earlier, is to do what the traumatizing narcissist has done: Erect manic defenses against any sense of weakness, need, and badness, and project all the shameful affects out of themselves, and into others."  Sad but enough stress and trauma will tip the scales into NPD.

[Dutch Uncle]

@ arpy1.

I see in your posts a lot of references to your time in the cult.
I must say that I do struggle with my protestant (Calvinist) upbringing, the new 'Faith' my mother later embraced (New Agism) (and to which I tried to adept, in some ways detrimental to my development).

I think that for me it might be worthwhile to investigate my 'religious abuse'.
For one I struggle with two things
**possible trigger**
(highlight to see)

• I sometimes have the scary feeling my mom wants to see me nailed to The Cross, so she can be revered as Mother Mary. Grieving of course, but yet being the one who brought 'Goodness' into the world. She did, if only I were to fulfill my role.
• sometimes I think my father doesn't mind me hanging on The Cross either. Being the Father and all, or being Abraham having to answer God's Call. Sacrificing your Son is a good thing. The Ultimate Goodness even.

I don't know if you want to even go there (your religious abuse/experiences in the cult), but if you want, if you then would find it valuable to open a thread on the matter.
Given the nature of the sensitivities surrounding religion, I will first ask the mods/site owner to ponder such a delicate issue.
Not in the least since I already 'screwed up royally' for meddling in such issues, entering it with a 'stretched leg' (football/soccer reference: I guess the US-equivalent would be 'entering it as a quarterback'(?) )

I have become a 'Humanist' during my time of coming 'Out of the FOG', and it's been both a major asset, but also a major trigger for facing/reliving 'religion'. In fact, I think that joining the 'Humanistic Society/Union' has opened to me the path of taking ownership of my life. And by that also getting out of the FOG regarding religious abuse I have suffered.

But while it's been great to join the Humanists, it's not a place to discuss the abuse I've suffered.
This site might be able to provide space for that. But I'll want to ask first.
And I'll want to know if this 'need' is shared by others.

So others: if you consider this being a valuable contribution to explore such sources of your cPTSD, please let me us know here. in the thread the Site Manager (Kizzie) started. (for the link, see Kizzie's post below.)
(or via PM)

[Kizzie]

It can be a very sensitive issue and as such I appreciate you asking the community and Mod Team DU ( ).

My own feeling is that as long as those posting are aware of the difference between sharing their point of view and trying to convert someone to theirs, any respectful considered discussion of religion or philosophy such as humanism is fine.  However, I will see what the other Mods think and in the meantime we would appreciate any feedback from members on this topic.

The only thing I would ask is that we don't explore this issue here given it will derail arpy's thread about traumatizing N's.  I have posed the question here in a new thread http://outofthefog.net/C-PTSD/forum/index.php?topic=2356.msg15014#msg15014 and would appreciate if you would reply there.  Tks!

[Dutch Uncle]

Thanks Kizzie.

If any wish for such a thread is expressed to here, or to me or you mods via PM, I'd like to clarify that the purpose, the usefulness of such a thread in relation to cPTSD would be to talk about abuse suffered in a religious context, and not about the religion per se.
I'm afraid that in any religion abuse occurs, and certainly also among those who consider themselves not religious, so I'd wish it not to be a thread on religion as such.

The line between the two will obviously be thin. The two will be 'enmeshed', is I think the appropriate term considering this issue.

Thanks for considering, and leaving the issue open for at least the possibility of such a thread, if a wish/need of it will surface.