Building Trust

[spryte]

The topic of trust has come up in a couple of other threads and I think it would be good to discuss it in more detail here.

When I started thinking about trust, I wanted to know if it was something that happened automatically, or if it was something that had to be built over time.

The conclusion that I came to is that we come into this world as children as trusting beings. Over time, that trust gets destroyed in many ways. For us, I think it's pretty obvious how that trust got destroyed. Our families, classmates, significant others...they all played a part in destroying our trust.

And there are two routes that we can take...self protection, not trusting anyone, ever, for any reason...or, we can manufacture situations in which we can rebuild trust, a little at a time.

And the next question is, well...how do you go about learning how to trust again?

As globetrotter and I were discussing in the "process of change" thread, I personally believe that learning how to trust people is an active process that we have to engage in. Dipping our toe in the water a bit at a time, specifically creating situations in which we can objectively see..."I did X and the world didn't collapse."

I think that a big portion of the process is attempting to engage with people who are trust worthy. I think the only way to know whether or not someone is trustworthy is by observing them. Seeing how they interact with others. If I'm watching my mother and grandmother criticize and talk about other people behind their backs, there is no way that I can trust that they're not going to do that to me the moment I walk out of the room.

I think another component of building trust is in delving into our own trust issues. WHAT exactly is it that we don't trust? Do we not trust someone not to cheat on us? Do we not trust someone to abandon us if we show them our "true selves"? Do we not trust people to be compassionate towards us? I think that there are specific places where our trust got broken, and figuring out where those places are helps us to create specific circumstances in which we can start rebuilding it.

After I replied to globetrotters comment about trust in the other thread, it occurred to me on the ride home that I just recently had a very specific instance of this come up.

I have a real problem asking people for help. My problem with this is specific. I don't trust people to tell me "no".

I don't trust other people to have strong enough boundaries to tell me that they can't fulfill my request. I expect them to either tell me yes, but not because they want to do it - instead because they feel obligated to do it and not feel comfortable telling me no. Or, to tell me yes, and then when they realize that it's inconvenient for them...or they can't do it for whatever reason, to just...disappear on me instead of coming back to me and saying, "Hey, such and such came up, so I can't do that thing for you."

Now, obviously, this started with my mom. I never could take a problem to her and trust that she'd help me with it, so I learned how to deal with them by myself. It wasn't helped by the fact that I used to be surrounded by people who were pretty notorious for having awful boundary issues. Myself included. *I* used to be one of those people who didn't know how to say no to people.

This is something that I've been working on over the years.

I have one friend who I have come to trust in this regard. I've observed her. She's a very straightforward person. I've watched her set boundaries with other people. I've rarely seen her take on too much in her own life, and over extend herself. So, when I reached out to her, to ask her to help me, I was pretty confident in the fact that if she said yes, it would be because she wanted to help me. My trust was further built with her when I asked her to do something for me and she said no, that she couldn't.

With my boyfriend, that's been a more complicated process. He used to be one of those people who'd tell me that he'd do something, and then just disappear. HE had trust issues. He didn't know me well enough (this was years ago when we first were friends) to know that he could trust that if he told me no, that I wouldn't get angry with him, or try to manipulate him into doing it - both things that others had done to him in the past.

So, for us, the trust building has been going both ways...he's learned to trust me enough to be straightforward with him, not get needlessly angry, and not try to manipulate him in other situations that he's come to be able to say "no" if he needs to with me. I'm more comfortable asking him to do some things for me. I'm still working up to asking for things which require a bigger emotional investment.

But so...the other day I was put in a position where I had no choice but to ask a bunch of people for something. People whom I had not built this trust relationship with. I had to ask four people to give me reference letters for this new job I was applying for.

Two of them came through right away. Two of them did the exact thing that I was afraid of them doing.

And, I watched it happening. I eventually got the letters, but it was like pulling teeth. They both got too busy. One of them, when I reminded them, said "Oh crap." and eventually got it to me. The other, just flat out ignored my texts about it and didn't get it to me until I mentioned to his wife (I'm friends with both of them) and she tracked him down and got him to do it. Instead of just telling me, "Hey, it turns out I'm too busy to do this." They just...didn't do it until I made a fuss about it.

And I kind of watched the whole thing as it was happening. Realized that this was my trust issue, being played out, exactly as I was afraid that it would be.

So...I kind of looked at it.

1. the two people that I asked, I probably shouldn't have. Looking back on it, I should have known that with each of them, there was a risk that it wouldn't get done. The one woman is kind of flakey anyway, and the guy is straight up passive aggressive - especially with women.
2. What does this mean for me the next time I go to ask someone else to do something for me? Am I going to allow myself to go..."See...this isn't me being irrational. This actually happens. This is why I was afraid of doing it in the first place and I'm not going to put myself in that position again."

I still think it's important for me to learn how to be able to ask for help when I need it. So, I'm going to have to chalk this up to "sometimes people don't come through for you, that doesn't mean that EVERYONE will not come through for you." And realize that I have evidence of that happening.

I think a big problem with NOT trusting people is the thought distortions that get in the way. The black and white thinking and the generalizations. "These people hurt me, so that means that EVERYONE is going to hurt me." "This person let me down, so ALL people are going to let me down."

And, maybe a big part of it too is realizing that during the time that we were taught our biggest lessons about the world being a scary, untrustworthy place, we were children who had no control over the situations. As adults, we have many more tools at our disposal to handle situations where we might get hurt. I'm finding that that's a hard truth to internalize with the c-ptsd.


What are some of your challenges/obstacles with trust? How/Have you been successful in working towards creating trust?

[keepfighting]

I think you're on to something: We need to break down the topic of 'trust' into two categories:

1) Trust in ourselves

2) Trust in others

Both kinds of trust have been seriously compromised in people with CPTSD:

1) Trust in ourselves was destroyed by selfserving tactics of toxic people in our lives, tactics such as: Gaslighting, degradation, emotional blackmail, distorting our perceptions ... - basically anything that feeds us the idea that we are psychologically damaged and our reasoning is impaired.

2) Trust in others has been destroyed by one or more person in a position of power and/or trust in our lives who has used and abused us and thoroughly betrayed our trust. Small wonder some of us steer clear of all people - those that were supposed to love and nurture us most betrayed and (emotionally) abandoned us so it feels safer to trust no one.


Now the million Dollar question: How do we work on (re)building those trusts?

No easy answers for either. Here are my thoughts:

1) We need to realize that we can trust our own instincts and perceptions, they are not better or worse than anyone else's. We've been gaslighted into believing they are - it was a self serving lie.

We need to formulate and exercise setting boundaries that make our relationship with others healthier. We also need to remind ourselves that we have a 'right' to do so even though some toxic people will try to make us feel guilty about it. Actually, we have an obligation towards ourselves to set healthy boundaries because they improve our wellbeing.

...

2) Right now, I am proceding with enormous caution into new and existing relationships. I 'test the waters' by being nice and cooperative to begin with, and if the other person reciprocates, then I am nice towards her/him again. If the other person does not reciprocate, I don't put any more effort or energy into that relationship. My mantra now is: "Don't put more effort and/or energy into a relationship than the other person does. If I am not worth making an effort to them, than they are not worth making an effort to me." --- I know it's over simplifying but right now it's the best I can manage. If people want my trust, they have to earn it - words are cheap, actions speak a more honest language, IMO.

...

I am working on both kinds of trust. Both have been so thoroughly damaged in my life that neither are easily repaired. Takes time and practise - and trust that even though I have trusted the wrong person *again*, that doesn't mean my judgment is off *all*  the time or that *everyone*  is untrustworthy...

The rebuilding of trust is really at the heart of CPTSD recovery and affects other aspects, as well, isn't it?

[schrödinger's cat]

Interesting thread. I've got massive trust issues, especially with people in positions of authority and/or people who are supposed to help you. I'm only now beginning to see a GP again if I need to.

One thing that's made things a lot easier is validating my original feelings and perceptions about the things that traumatized me. Later on, those were all discounted, explained away, ignored, or seen as character faults on my part. So coming to see that yes, I had a point, I so had a point, made it possible to trust my instincts and perceptions a lot more.

Another thing is, I'm at the age where you're beginning to collect a list of warning signs. Like keepfighting said - it's a bit of a harsh list, but then again I simply cannot afford to be retraumatized once more. Out of the question. I have to keep myself safe.

One such warning sign is if people tell me: "My brother / friend / family / counselor always tells me I'm [too quick to find faults / lacking in emotional intelligence / any other failing]. But honestly, [enter rationalization here], don't you think? And besides, [several sentences about how hurtful they thought that was]." Same goes for any other failing they mention: if they feel a true need to prove to others that no, they're not like that AT ALL, then there's a chance that yes, they're like that. At least, there's enough of a chance that it pays to keep my eyes open for further warning signs.

Same thing when they extol a certain virtue too often, too markedly, and too loudly. Not in an idle and relaxed way either, but kind of resolute, like this is a point they really MUST make. Like, they'll be telling a story of two people who got into a quarrel, "and then she said he was being rude and she stormed off in a huff. Now, I can't understand that at all. If you can't call a spade a spade - ugh, I hate that! Always having to walk on eggshells! I prefer people who are honest and straightforward, don't you?" - which I'm beginning to read as 'this person tends to be rude and tactless, then feels injured and insulted if anyone points that out'.

Or when someone tells a story of something nasty they once did to someone. Like, a friend said something hurtful, but instead of talking about it or even demanding an explanation, they simply walked away and dropped the friendship altogether. Chances is they'll do that again.

Same thing goes for people who say something nasty about someone behind their backs, or are very quick to judge people. As they do unto others, so they'll do unto you.

I had to learn all that because my Fawn response was so strong that I walked into all kinds of traps. People say there's a repetition compulsion in most people. If you were traumatized, you'll drift towards situations where you'll be traumatized the exact same way again. It's apparently part of our tendency to seek to replicate the conditions of our childhood and youth - no matter if those conditions were safe or harmful. I so often drifted towards hurtful, rejecting, self-centered people that I really and consciously had to think about ways to tell if someone would be kind and fair to me. So I've my list of good signs, too.

One thing that makes me feel safe, for example, is this. Someone mentions that someone disappointed them, or hurt them, but they talk about it in a matter-of-fact way, and don't make the other person look bad. Bonus points if, from the way they talk, I get the impression that - if the other person ever wished to talk about it and fix the relationship - things would be okay again.

But it's so difficult. I wish people just had something like a traffic light on their forehead. You'd get green-light people, who're safe as houses. Then yellow-light people, who're maybe safe but not really, so you'd best keep enough distance. And then red-light people, where the best you can do is back out of the room slowly.

[spryte]

Keepfighting - I think you're right, that is an important distinction to make and I'd almost be willing to say that rebuilding trust with yourself is almost necessary in some cases in order to be able to feel "safe."

For me, most of my distrust of myself actually came long after I left my parents house...because of all the awful situations I ended up in because of my co-dependency...and as SC said...I think being drawn to the same abusive situations over and over again. I think as a late teen, and a young adult...it was harder for me to blame those situations on my parents because...well, *I* was making decisions for myself, wasn't I? It was ME who put myself in that crappy situation, and didn't walk away when it was apparent that it was unhealthy/dangerous!

(I spent a long time blaming myself for all of that too)

So, I've kind of been working on learning how to trust myself again. Learning healthy boundary setting has been like...paramount in that process because it helps me feel like I can keep myself safe. Like I'm not going to allow myself to be manipulated again, or put in a situation where I'm being taken advantage of. It's a really good feeling to know that I can spot that stuff from a mile away now, and put an end to it really quickly. Reading a lot about manipulation tactics was really good for me for that too. The book Emotional Blackmail was a really good one for that.

But, again...and this was what I was trying to stress I think...that whether it's trust with myself, or trust with another person...it's not something that happened over night, and it wasn't something that happened without my active participation. I had to be in more than several situations in which I was forced to stand up for myself, walk away from a relationship with someone, point out someone's crappy behavior towards me..."set boundaries" before I could look back and say...HEY!  I DID that! Look! Here, and here, and here! (This has actually only happened recently) I had to have concrete examples to look back on to be able to see a positive pattern. That doesn't mean that there weren't times that I DIDN'T set a boundary when I should have, or didn't speak up when I should have...but when the good starts outweighing the bad...is when I could really start to feel "safe" with myself.

The other place that I haven't quit got to building trust with myself is taking good care of myself in terms of like health and fitness and self-care. I don't trust myself to do that yet at all because I've been failing at it left and right. Right now, I'm kind of trying to just be compassionate with myself about that - and I guess maybe that's where that starts...I have to learn how to trust myself in that I'm not just going to tear myself apart when I fail at something.

We need to realize that we can trust our own instincts and perceptions, they are not better or worse than anyone else's. We've been gaslighted into believing they are - it was a self serving lie.

I'm not sure that this is true for everyone. It's an unfortunate side effect of some kinds of abuse that our instincts and perceptions do get buried/warped - which is why so many people with abusive pasts end up in adult abusive relationships. Like I said above, this was the case with me, and it was really only delving into WHY and HOW I ended up in those situations, and having other people point out to me how my perceptions were off that my fog really started to lift.

I'm totally with you on the "don't put more energy into a relationship than the other person".

I also agree that rebuilding trust is definitely at the heart of this. The bottom line was that as children, we were taught in all kinds of ways that the world, and the people in it was a scary, hurt filled, untrustworthy place. We couldn't trust anyone to fulfill our needs, or not hurt us. The problem with that is that just like with kids who get bullied in school...there was no way for us to realize that that our family environments (or school environments) were such a small microcosm of concentrated badness. The only conclusion that we could come to as kids was that the ENTIRE WORLD was like that. So now, as healing adults, we are given the ENORMOUS TASK of teaching ourselves that that isn't the case AND at the SAME TIME (nothing like being kicked while you're down) have to root through ourselves to disconnect all the wires to all the defense mechanisms that we created to protect ourselves while in those fishbowls of terror.   

It makes me really really angry. 

[spryte]

SC - I have the same trust issues with people in authority, although it's really specific to people who can seriously affect my life or...I don't know, take control away from me in a big way. I've gotten triggered by a doctor, but only because it was within his power to take away my insurance benefits after a car accident, and he was dismissive, condescending, and kept telling me that I wasn't experiencing what I was experiencing. That one triggered a migrain that ended up with mde in the ER. It was the same with that psychiatrist that I recently had that run in with. She was dismissive, condescending, accusatory, AND was trying to give me a permenant diagnosis which could have seriously impacted my life. Cue meltdown.

And I get panicky every time I get pulled over by a cop for the same reason. Too much Ultimate Power. I don't think I'd have the same reaction to a GP, or a Dentist unless the above conditions were met.

I too have a "list" of warning signs. It's a lot more intuitive for me I think, or I can't remember as much detail as you when it comes to those situations but I know that there have been times where I've immediately gotten that sense because of something that someone has said, or done where I'm like...newp.

Manipulation is a big one for me. I can't handle anyone who is intentionally or unintentionally manipulative in any way. Guilting, passive aggressive remarks...even a tone in their voice that tells me that they're going to be looking for something from me, can't handle it. I react really poorly to anyone trying to make me feel obligated to them. Also, people who refuse to take responsibility for things. If, in talking to you, I am getting that "victim" vibe? I'm out. Or, well...recently, I was in a "teaching" situation with a guy, and when I pointed out mistakes that he made, I immediately noticed that instead of just being like, "sorry - moving on" he had some excuse for why he made the mistake. "I'm tired." "I'm in a bad mood." "I had a bad day." They were minor but immediately, my antennae were up. And so...I was a little more prepared for his backtracking when he made a GIANT mistake. I cut it off. You can't teach anyone like that anything.

And, I guess that was the programming from my mother. She is the consummate victim, and master manipulator. Then, then she sent me out into the world with that programming so that all predators needed to learn about me was which "guilt" buttons to push for me to fall all over myself trying to make them happy. Yep...fawning causing us to walk into traps. I walked into a lot of traps...or...got hunted because there was apparently a neon bulls eye on my forehead.

It's funny, when I first learned about co-dependency, it was really focused on the behaviors and not how you got that way. Hmmm.

I think observation is really important. "Actions speak louder than words" has become my relationship mantra. I'll listen to what people say, but I don't run into people who are as open about their "stuff" like you apparently have. I can't remember anyone ever having said anything like that...but I do watch how they treat others in their lives, like a hawk. Which was one reason why I was disappointed in having missed the fact that that guy was going to be passive aggressive about that reference letter...considering how many times I'd seen him act that way with his wife. I'd miscalculated based on other information that I thought would outweigh that.

Man, a warning system would be awesome! I'd have run as far and as fast as my legs could have carried me the minute my ex walked up to me.

[globetrotter]

I feel trust at a deeply rooted emotional level and have a difficult time applying 'logic' to how to let people in. It seems to happen at the core - and even then there is the Wall thru which ' none shall pass '.

As one who flies comfortably as a loner, I don't question trust in my self. I can tell the idiots from the real people. I'm choosey about who my friends are. ..but when my partner tells me she knows I don't trust her after 20 years, I wonder HOW can I really trust anyone? She is kind and warm. I am the problem here.

[schrödinger's cat]

That's a good checklist you have.

As a long time codependent people pleaser, I had a great deal of trouble separating fantasy from reality. If I had a need for someone to be other than what they really were, I discounted, excused and in general completely ignored their behavior in favor of my idealized version of what they should be, or could be, with enough effort on their, part to change. ... I now rely totally on behavior and look carefully to see if words match up with non-verbal behaviors. If there is a discrepancy, those yellow lights, I call intuition, start flashing. That is accompanied by a little mechanism in my stomach which produces a tiny bit of nausea.

I've done something a bit like that. It's like I decided beforehand what my friendship with someone was going to be like, and then I acted accordingly. In hindsight, I'm slapping my forehead about how oblivious I was to some very clear warning signs. "Oh, I'm sure she had a good reason for that." - "There's bound to be a good explanation for that." Because that's what I was taught by my FOO: everyone was nice, everyone was reasonable, and if I felt hurt, why, this was simply just me being in the wrong.

Thank goodness I'm re-learning to trust my gut feelings. It's not nausea, more like an "uh-oh" kind of feeling. Sometimes I can't even pinpoint why I get this uneasy feeling, but... those times I ignored it, I paid for it later.

...other people, usually untrustworthy, have told me how I need to develop trust.

"Trussst in meeeee, jussst in meeee... shut your eeeeyes and trussst in me... hold still, please..." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZY8jUuEzJQ

As children, we were taught in all kinds of ways that the world, and the people in it was a scary, hurt filled, untrustworthy place. We couldn't trust anyone to fulfill our needs, or not hurt us. The problem with that is that just like with kids who get bullied in school...there was no way for us to realize that that our family environments (or school environments) were such a small microcosm of concentrated badness. The only conclusion that we could come to as kids was that the ENTIRE WORLD was like that. So now, as healing adults, we are given the ENORMOUS TASK of teaching ourselves that that isn't the case AND at the SAME TIME (nothing like being kicked while you're down) have to root through ourselves to disconnect all the wires to all the defense mechanisms that we created to protect ourselves while in those fishbowls of terror.

I like "fishbowls of terror". That's SUCH a good way of putting it. And it's an excellent point. I want this in our glossary. Can we have this in our glossary? Yes? Please? As a nifty phrase for "the toxic social environment we grew up in at the time of our traumatization, i.e. family/school/neighbourhood"? I like that it says two things: a) YES it was bad, it was really REALLY bad, but b) it's not what the world is like.

[findingmyhome]

I am (was) so screwed up and empty I have to start with my dog.  Slowly I am beginning to trust that he is not staring at me or following me around to find a crack so he can break me down.  Slowly I am beginning to understand that my dog loves me in a way where he is on my side.  If I screw up he worries that we (as a group) will not survive.  He is with me on this and he wants me to be strong.  I do not have to extend myself to show him I love him and care.  Even if I smile and giggle he is happy and content.   I have love in me and am able to demonstrate love to him.   

Hard to put into words but for me the dog is the easiest place to start as the humans in my life are too complicated and scary.

So difficult this concept of love (trust, etc) when I had no demonstration of it growing up. 

[Rain]

Oh, my heart aches reading your post, findingmyhome.

I'm glad you are moving towards healing with your dog.    I so understand what you are saying.   Relational healing, and pets are many times so essential in the Journey.   I know in my life this is so true.

[keepfighting]

I am (was) so screwed up and empty I have to start with my dog.  Slowly I am beginning to trust that he is not staring at me or following me around to find a crack so he can break me down.  Slowly I am beginning to understand that my dog loves me in a way where he is on my side.  If I screw up he worries that we (as a group) will not survive.  He is with me on this and he wants me to be strong.  I do not have to extend myself to show him I love him and care.  Even if I smile and giggle he is happy and content.   I have love in me and am able to demonstrate love to him.   

Hard to put into words but for me the dog is the easiest place to start as the humans in my life are too complicated and scary.

So difficult this concept of love (trust, etc) when I had no demonstration of it growing up.

My heart aches for you, fmh. How did you get the idea of having a dog to learn how to love and trust? It sounds simple but brilliant  .

Your story reminds me a bit of my Lost Child brother. He acquired a dog three years ago and it is the first time he's experienced what 'unconditional love' means. The two of them are inseperable now. It's good to see him so happy with and protective of his dog. (He didn't plan to have a dog in the first place, it kind of 'happened' to him that he acquired one - and turned out to be a blessing for him).

[schrödinger's cat]

Now, this sounds weird, but I started with RPGs. Not on purpose, mind you. I was so stuck in Freeze Mode, and so burnt out and drained, that all I had the energy for were computer games. But they helped, in their own bizarre little way. You can always, always predict what's happening. Even if you don't know it in advance how a quest is going to play out, you can just look it up on the internet. There are always cheat codes. There are always characters who you know will be reliably nice. Everything follows rules. (Stock up on health potions and get a big enough bow ---> you won't die. Easy.) It helped me realize that there are rules in real life, too. I always knew there were, of course, but only as something I paid lip service to. At the end of the day, I still feared that everything that could possibly go wrong would go wrong. So I couldn't even cross a bridge without being in real fear that it would break down.

[Butterfly]

All most excellent thoughts. And a (((group hug))) for all.

One thing I can add is I give people a way out, a way to let the know that saying no is ok. "And if that doesn't work for you, no problem, just say so" this way if they do it against their better judgement anyway then that's on them.

[Butterfly]

Im not sure this fits here but the trouble I have is my engulfing uPDm befriends anyone I get friendly with and turns them into her friends. Then they are easily used as proxy stalkers and moles so she knows who else I'm friendly with so she can in turn befriend them. It's with cycle started some years ago and she just keeps going.

On top of that she has an interesting way of making comments behind other peoples backs in a way that so believable and insidious it take some training to even realize her comment is designed to make you formulate a negative view of the person. She sounds rather sympathetic to the other persons situation at the same time painting them in a bad light. So I know she's likely doing this with friends who start to make themselves scarce.

Other times she's flat out approached friends she wasn't able to turn and tell them to stay away from me I don't need them I only need my family. It's so sick.

I tell her nothing of my schedule but she has moles all over so I just know she knows what's gong on in my life. I'm building some branches of friendships she has no way of knowing and need to be careful not to tell current friends of new friends or invite some when others are invited, etc.

This must all sound terribly paranoid. Even to me reading it over sounds paranoid. But it's been happening all of my adult life and I had a friend years ago who told me my mother approached her and told her to stay away. I asked my mother why she would do that and she said she thought my friend was using me. I told her you have no right to decide and go behind my back but I know those words fall on deaf ears.

[Rain]

You are NOT alone, Butterfly.  My mother is a horror story in this arena.   For me, I see this as emotional bullying.   Pursuing power and control, even if it looks soooo nice and sweet.   It is gross.

I have to hide my life too.   The nightmare of having an NPD mother..

[schrödinger's cat]

An acquaintance of mine does that - talk about someone behind their backs in this really "sensible and down-to-earth" way that paints them in a VERY bad light. She's wickedly plausible. Everything she does and says is quicksand: smooth and pretty, but nothing is reliable.

So, I have no trouble at all believing you, which is at least ONE good thing that came out of that whole mess. I'm sorry to hear that it's your mother who's doing that to you. I could easily cut my own little sunshiny truth-teller out of my life (gradually, so she wouldn't go on a rampage), but you don't have it so easy.

This fits here absolutely, I think. A friend of mine grew up in the same family as this woman, and to this day, the poor sod has difficulty telling his side of a story. He just assumes he won't be believed. "Who'd even listen to me?" That's another facet of trust: trusting that our voice will be heard. Living with a highly plausible arch-manipulator must make that hard.