All hoovers after going NC with DramaSis and DramaMama. Will it ever end?

[Dutch Uncle]

« edit Monday, 21 December 2015 by Dutch Uncle »: changed the title a bit to reflect current events. Months after I started (and locked  ) the thread.
« edit Thursday, 28 April 2016 by Dutch Uncle »: changed the title again to reflect current events. Months after I reopened the thread

Right! This was bound to happen sooner or later, but here it is. And I would like to get some advise and/or insights and/or questions from you all.

I am NC with my sister, for 8 months now. Before that I had a long and strenuous relationship with her, and went LC/Grey Rock/MC/etc. for 3 years before I went NC. I never told her I 'went' NC, I simply did at some point, after she had (emotionally) blackmailed me. (see further down below)

I've written some on me and my sis, so some of you might have a clue, but I'm happy willing to elaborate/explain further. Might even be 'purgatory' to do so. So feel free to ask.

Today I received this e-mail (note to mods: It's a translation, so it's not a verbatim quote. I trust quoting this mail as such is not a breach of site-policy)
"In a few weeks it will be my birthday. I'll celebrate it with a small party.
I would want to invite you(¹), and [would want to] call you to inform you additionally on my birthday[party]. But there is something wedged in between us to [prevent me from] do that just normally. I would like to re-establish our contact, so we can call each other if there is something to tell.
I hope you want the same and we can arrange for a meeting/deal/get-together/conversation.
Sis."
(¹) note: NOT "I hereby invite you."

So, the first question is: do I respond or not.
I'm in a way caught between a rock and a hard place, so I'll share some of my thoughts on this.

1) A reason TO respond would be to make it clear to her I'm "Over and Done with", which I have already told my Father and Brother. So saying that would be merely to re-assert my commitment to NC. To Bro and Dad I have said the blackmail was the proverbial "drop in the bucket that made it spill over".
(I'm not sure if that's something that is being said in English, but I have come across the expression "I hope your bucket of water doesn't spill over.", so it might resonate. To elaborate: her blackmail wasn't exactly the 'drop' that made it spill over, but more 'the brick smashed in at great force' that would even make a half-filled bucket spill over, violently.  But I digress.)
I left mom out of all this, for various reasons, but mostly because she would definitely interfere and do everything she wants to get me back in line. Abusive if need be.

2) The reasons NOT to respond are multiple, and I do need to elaborate on them at great lengths. So please bear with me:
- I already referred to this in the note: She "would like to invite me", but DOES NOT invite me... yet. So the ball is being placed in my court. To me, this sounds as I will have to make an effort so I can reap the generosity of my sis to grant me an (royal) Audience to the Court of the Drama Queen. (I suspect she is HPD, like my mom)
- "there is something wedged between us". Right. What is this Wedge? She doesn't say! I'm left guessing. It's "Chaos Manufacture." She's damned right there is a Wedge, but I'm left to 'disclose' this Wedge. It's up to me. She's too Chicken. And trust me: It's not (just) me who is driving this Wedge. I'd argue I bloody well see the Wedge, but SHE is the one driving it in, time and again, and I have simply stopped trying to pull it out. And now it's again being put on me to 'clear the Wedge'. I'm trying hard to be the Stubborn Mule who says: "you may drag it out yourself ma'am. I ain't movin'."
- She would like to re-establish contact. Really? Is this a constructive way to re-establish contact? I'm being lured out in the open. She's sitting safely behind the fence. Well stocked up on ammo, no doubt. She's waving a carrot-on-a-stick, but this Donkey is not moving.
- She hopes I want the same. Well, execute me, but I don't see a move forward from her, so what 'same' am I actually to reciprocate?

At this point I think it's imperative to tell that one of the HUGE grudges she has held against for ages is that "everything is always about you (=me, Dutch Uncle)", that "You don't care about anything I have to say", that "You don't care about anybody (!) else".
YET... "we can always talk things over so well"

I did take that into account very well (That's obviously what I say, might be a bit biased there ) over the three years MC etc. In that timeframe I already noticed how often the conversation got turned onto me. Like in this very mail. It's not ME who makes 'any' conversation about me, it's HER who does it. And i've been the fool who always kicked the ball in an effort to score. In a team-effort, I thought. But only to find out I was the actual opponent. Or had made an 'own goal', confused gaslighted into where the goalpost actually were.

What exactly does she say about HER in this mail? It's all about me, as I can figure out, and it only draws on me to make a move. It doesn't say anything on what she considers to be 'the Wedge", it doesn't say anything on how SHE thinks/wants to get it out of the way. It's all about ME having to make the effort so 'the Wedge' can get out of the way and I can happily show up at her party.

The Blackmail
This is exactly what the blackmail was all about, and it's about time I spill the beans on that, here in this thread:
"I assume you want as much as me that the birthday party (a Jubilee) for our mom will be a pleasant one. Well, for me there is something that is really bothering me [another Wedge! (DU)] and I need to have that cleared up before that. Any ideas on how to do that? I hope we can have a meeting/deal/get-together/conversation before the event."
I had no idea what she was talking about (of course I could IMAGINE a few). She was clearly not telling me what this "really bothering" thing was about, so in a fit of FOGlessness I replied: "Perhaps you need/want to apologize?" [for what's bothering you] (in hindsight I probably should have stayed mute. )

She had already pulled quite some stunts on me that might have warranted an apology, and nothing is more stress-releasing than admitting a wrong, no?
Not in the least since I had, many months prior, tried to arrange a 'siblings-gift' to give to uHPD-mom on her Jubilee (basically a lets-just-show-up-together-so-mom-can't-whine,-she'll-bite-the-dust-soon-anyway,-what-do-we-care,-at-least-we-can-have-fun-together-can't-we,-she'll-be-happy-as-a-clown) which Sis had effectively sabotaged.

This is a whole lot I bring to bear, and I'm sure I'll need my time to make a decision, any-which-way.
There's still weeks to go before this party takes place, so I'll leave this thread open for replies, ideas and additional information for quite a while.

I have not threaded lightly on my decision to go NC, and so I will not thread lightly on my response to this either. I need to give this great consideration. Whatever I'l do, the consequences will be felt many years from now.

Thanks for reading this diatribe/confusion.

Dutch Uncle.

[arpy1]

Dutch Uncle, it makes me angry on your behalf to watch this woman at work on you. she sounds proper scary. seriously.

She's too Chicken

no, she's too clever. too clever to say anything outright, straightforward and honest.    not cowardice, D/U, but skill.    if it wasn't so destructive  i might almost admire it. clever clever clever...

to me, she seems to be a supremely accomplished manipulator; to me, everything she says here is calculated, (sorry, but it's true, whether or not she is totally conscious of it)...  calculated to FOG you into becoming enmeshed again. 

she has achieved a lot with this one email... she's climbed skilfully into your mind and pressed a lot of well established buttons in there, trying to con you into letting your soul's energy be drained off into her bottomless reservoir.     

Crazy-makers always want you to expend your mind's hard-won energy and resources, to think it all out, be cornered into explaining to yourself, justifying to yourself, fighting off the inevitable guilt. 

exhausting. but my feeling would be that perhaps you don't need to do that, don't need any more to enter into the arguments in your head that this is prompting. it's only that you have been so conditioned over the years to think that you are obliged to engage with it.

and in true manipulator style she has already made it look like it is your responsibility to respond, but only responding in the way she requires will suffice. she has provided a lot of clever emotional cues here, letting you know what is expected of you.

But:

you do not need to respond.   

if you decide to respond, you are free to respond in the way that you decide is most beneficial to you, to your emotional health, without guilt, fear or any obligation to look after hers.

oh D/Uncle, would you present your jugular to a vampire?  grrrrr i want to shake her, she is so destructive. protect yourself my friend. you are in control of this. not her.

i am going to admit this to you, Dutch Uncle. i want to say "Run, put as much distance between her and you as possible!" but i know it's not my place to. However, i know that you are wise, and you are perfectly able to make the decision that is the best for you. i just had to say that, becos i don't like the idea of your being hurt by her.

i really hope i haven't been too forward with all this, but i do just hate a bully. if i have, ignore what i say, but be assured of my support. i believe you are a strong person. you will resolve this.   

[stillhere]

Dutch Uncle,

I just somehow lost the message I was draft, so this is a second try.

Your sister is indeed "hoovering."  And you are asking questions I know well.  You will want, I think, to ask yourself two overarching questions.  The first is whether you see any prospects for change on her part.  You don't report any.  But you know the dynamics here.

The second question is whether making contact to inform her of no contact is worthwhile.  It's a contradiction, of course, and in my experience is a message rarely heard.

I went NC with an abusive mother almost twenty-five years ago.  I don't think I ever said so directly, but I'd have had to shout over the barrage of ridicule and contempt that was her constant message.  Gradually, she realized that I meant business.  But the hoovering has never stopped.  I still receive letters describing my many faults and the ways in which I've let her down.  Like your sister, she apparently has no awareness of her own behavior.  The final cutoff came after a particularly violent episode, but it's the emotional abuse, which was constant, that still makes me shudder.

My thinking goes something like this:  if she could ever take at least some responsibility for her own behavior, I might consider contact, at least in a limited way.  But messages are anything but acknowledgment of her behavior.  Instead, they're all about my deficiencies.  I don't believe I've ever heard her apologize for anything.  Faced with someone so intractable, I've seen few options but not to respond to the messages.  Still, they haven't stopped.  I've not been hoovered, but neither am I recovered. 

Your sister's message is different, but what you've quoted suggests little acknowledgment that she needs to examine her behavior.  Rather, she's adept at shifting blame for problematic family dynamics.  From what you describe, she seems always to take the initiative to name a problem and so puts you on the defensive.  Taking the initiative allows her to set the terms of the conflict (whatever it is at the moment).  I note that someone concerned for you might more openly ask what was wrong/what she might have done/how she might help make it right. 

You are right, I think, in judging that your response now will have consequences for some time to come.  You are establishing a new pattern.  You will probably want to consider what you would truly want (is NC preferable?) and what may truly be possible.

[Dutch Uncle]

Thanks so much, arpy1

She's too Chicken

no, she's too clever. too clever to say anything outright, straightforward and honest.    not cowardice, D/U, but skill.    if it wasn't so destructive  i might almost admire it. clever clever clever...

Sly, isn't it 

I remember, as a young boy, my parents had (multiple) friends over (they were into 'Ecumenism': give credit where credit is due . Yay parents!) . This particular couple, Jewish immigrants (not that THAT particularly matters), told me on the difference between clever and sly. I guess the only way it DOES matter is that as an immigrant one gets to 'think' about what part of your native language goes into what into your 'adopted' language.

It has stuck ever since.
It's a sly trick of her, isn't it?

Burn the witch! [/jest]
(can we have the smiley over from OOTF?)
(oh LOL. It IS here! Though for certain it does not show up as a choice! Praise [whoever] for making this happen.)

[Dutch Uncle]

You will want, I think, to ask yourself two overarching questions.  The first is whether you see any prospects for change on her part.  You don't report any.  But you know the dynamics here.

The second question is whether making contact to inform her of no contact is worthwhile.  It's a contradiction, of course, and in my experience is a message rarely heard.

[...] Like your sister, she apparently has no awareness of her own behavior. [...] But messages are anything but acknowledgment of her behavior.  Instead, they're all about my deficiencies.[...] Your sister's message is different, but what you've quoted suggests little acknowledgment that she needs to examine her behavior.  Rather, she's adept at shifting blame for problematic family dynamics.  From what you describe, she seems always to take the initiative to name a problem and so puts you on the defensive.  Taking the initiative allows her to set the terms of the conflict (whatever it is at the moment).  I note that someone concerned for you might more openly ask what was wrong/what she might have done/how she might help make it right. 

You are right, I think, in judging that your response now will have consequences for some time to come.  You are establishing a new pattern.  You will probably want to consider what you would truly want (is NC preferable?) and what may truly be possible.

Thanks a lot. These are exactly the questions I'm pondering.

Yay! I'm not alone in this! 

I'd :kiss: you if I could.

Thanks again.

[stillhere]

Dutch Uncle,

If my experience is any gauge, your sister will make escalating efforts to "hoover" you back in.  She will be probably do so no matter what you decide about the current questions.  Change on your part is an indication that you're assuming control of your own life.  However vaguely an abuser may understand what that means, the prospect threatens the abuser's control.

I have an advantage, of sorts, in that I live far away from my uNPD mother.  Our paths won't cross without someone boarding a plane.  (I'm in the U. S., so the same applies to people in Europe.)

If you live in the same community with your sister, the challenges may be different.

[Dutch Uncle]

Sis has distanced herself sufficiently (geographically) not to worry about that.

I'm the one, from all of the FOO (including my parents), who has stayed closest to 'home ground'. And even I left the suburb/village we grew up in for the 'Big City' some tens of Km's away. Everybody is at least two hours travel away.

Thanks for your concern consideration, much appreciated. 

[Dutch Uncle]

She's too Chicken

no, she's too clever.

I'm so happy you said this. For I'm pretty sure I often take the role of the 'scout' to 'protect' sis (she's 6 years older than me, LOL). Brave little Uncle getting his head shot of... The Gallant Prince just has to wrestle his way through the thorn-bushes, but than he may kiss Sleeping Beauty awake and live happily ever after... But Life is not a fairy-tale, now is it?
I should re-frame her chickenness... 

to me, she seems to be a supremely accomplished manipulator; to me, everything she says here is calculated, (sorry, but it's true, whether or not she is totally conscious of it)...  calculated to FOG you into becoming enmeshed again.  [...] and in true manipulator style she has already made it look like it is your responsibility to respond, but only responding in the way she requires will suffice. she has provided a lot of clever emotional cues here, letting you know what is expected of you.

Thanks. I feel validated. Whether she is conscious of it or not doesn't really matter, does it?
During the three years LC, and reading a lot of stuff on dysfunctional behavior, I started to see clearly a lot of that in my sis (and whole FOO). Double-binds for example, and other manipulative tricks.

she has achieved a lot with this one email... she's climbed skilfully into your mind and pressed a lot of well established buttons in there, trying to con you into letting your soul's energy be drained off into her bottomless reservoir.

And I'm so grateful to have found this safe haven where I can just vent this, and lay down on my back and relax a bit, come back and see these replies that resonate so strongly with what is happening inside my head, heart and body.       

Crazy-makers always want you to expend your mind's hard-won energy and resources, to think it all out, be cornered into explaining to yourself, justifying to yourself, fighting off the inevitable guilt. 

Going NC has been such a relief, a reprieve of all that crap.

exhausting. but my feeling would be that perhaps you don't need to do that, don't need any more to enter into the arguments in your head that this is prompting. it's only that you have been so conditioned over the years to think that you are obliged to engage with it.

It's obsessive-compulsive.   

protect yourself my friend. you are in control of this. not her.
[...] be assured of my support. i believe you are a strong person. you will resolve this.

Thanks a lot. It will be a great asset while I ponder my options, my wants and my own skills to deal with this. 

Dutch Uncle,

You will want, I think, to ask yourself two overarching questions.  The first is whether you see any prospects for change on her part.

I do not see ANY prospects. I've given it three years in LC/MC, also putting up firm and clear rules and boundaries, followed up on them, only to see it worsening with the Blackmail as the 'Grand Finale'.
For me it's quite telling that this mail is practically a copy of that. Only now it's her birthday, not mom's Jubilee.

The second question is whether making contact to inform her of no contact is worthwhile.

My gut says "No". After a good nights sleep I think that IF I reply it will be along the lines of "I'm not coming. Enjoy the party and Happy Birthday Sis." No JADE as to why not. No mention of "The Wedge" whatsoever.

what you've quoted suggests little acknowledgment that she needs to examine her behavior.  Rather, she's adept at shifting blame for problematic family dynamics.  From what you describe, she seems always to take the initiative to name a problem and so puts you on the defensive.  Taking the initiative allows her to set the terms of the conflict (whatever it is at the moment).

No acknowledgment whatsoever.
A quite telling story is what happened in the three years LC/MC:
At some point I receive a mail in which she shows regret for our diminished contact. And she asks if her "Grave 'misstep' (blunder/ step-out-of-line) " had something to do with it. "Wow," I thought, "we're getting somewhere." So I asked her what this "Grave misstep" was, because I could not say if it had anything to do with it if I didn't know what it was. (I was clearly already getting out of the FOG there). She phoned me the next day. After some chit-chat I asked about it  . "Oh, that was no big thing", she said, "and I have already apologized."
WHAT?!
"No you didn't", I said.
"Yes I did!" she replied, "but I'll do it here again. There." (and that's all the words she used)
That was it. My sister coming clean on what SHE had called a "Grave misstep/blunder". 
Actually I chuckled inwards. And changed the subject. The Grave Misstep would clearly never be revealed, nor would 'ownership' of it be acknowledged by her. She had brushed it off.
I felt cheated, used. But it had been a significant lesson for me. SHE was not going to make things 'better'.

You are right, I think, in judging that your response now will have consequences for some time to come.  You are establishing a new pattern.  You will probably want to consider what you would truly want (is NC preferable?) and what may truly be possible.

Thanks again. That's exactly what I need to decide on. What will be the new pattern. And to a large degree the pattern is already woven. I'm arriving at the centre piece of the quilt/carpet now.

I went NC with an abusive mother almost twenty-five years ago.  [...], but it's the emotional abuse, which was constant, that still makes me shudder. [...] messages are anything but acknowledgment of her behavior.  Instead, they're all about my deficiencies.  [...] Still, they haven't stopped.  I've not been hoovered, but neither am I recovered.

I'm so sorry you have been going, and still are going through the same crap. I share your pain.

[arpy1]

Yay, Dutch Uncle,     

[Dutch Uncle]

It's now been 36 hours since I got the mail, and only now it is dawning on me:
First I have to arrange some contact so that whatever is "between us" can get straightened out, THEN my sis will tell me additional info on her birthday party, and THEN I will be invited.
Right?

What the * is going on?
Will I be instructed how to make a proper curtsey?
Will I be required to wear a lackey-jacket?

What?
It's a four hour trip to even get to her  .

She's bonkers.

[stillhere]

Good point, Dutch Uncle.  We become so used to patterns of acquiescence that they seem normal.  Breaking the pattern reveals a great many bizarre behaviors and outrageous expectations.

Your sister seems so familiar.  If the similarities hold, you will be hearing much more from her.

[MaryAnn]

HI Dutch,

You have done well here, grasshopper!  But, can tell that you are still struggling a bit with the decision, choice, you want to make here.  She is bonkers.  But, most people do not realize that.  She has probably presented to many that it is rather you that is bonkers.  That is how Uhpd's and NPD's operate.  So, just remember perception is reality.  I think that you IF you reply, you hit it right on head.  Be cordial, maybe add a "Sis, I would love to come to your B-Day party but unfortunately I already have other plans and will not be able to attend", followed by the rest. 

Kill her with kindness, these types do not know how to handle that.  It just drives them more crazy.  Believe me, I know.  It is a skill I learned working with my insane family and there were lawyers involved trying to handle financial matters - forgery, theft, business ownership transfer that was attempted while my GF was still alive and then the real transfer after he passed.  Drove the "mastermind"  behind it all (the daughter-in-law) completely insane.  And I just kept getting more and more written responses that proved her insanity if we ever actually had to go to a court of law.

You are not alone on this one.  You are a intelligent, warm, and caring person.  Please do not let your sis get the better of you.  Please take care of yourself on this one, do what is best for you.  Do not let her pull her into her web and put you through unnecessary drama.  I know that you will ultimately make the best decision for you.  Best Wishes!

Mary Ann

P.S. and thank you for the info on what to do to get all the new symbols.  That is awesome.... love the Udawoman and the Witchypoo (she reminds me of the witch from HR Puffnstuff) on the broom.

[Dutch Uncle]

I'm posting this mostly for self-reference. But anybody may feel free to chime in.

It's from a site I found when about two years ago I finally had the nerve to actually type "How to break up with your family" into the Google search-machine.

1. Acceptance. It may sound cliche, but it is very true that you have to be willing to accept the past history and the way the relationship has evolved over the years to the way it is now. There may never be a divine intervention to bring you two together or they may never have an epiphany one afternoon and wake up a changed person to your liking. [...]
2. You Can Not Reason With The Unreasonable. You may want to believe that when dealing with an intelligent person, that they will be reasonable when dealing with you. This is not always the case when handling issues with a dysfunctional family member. Trying to reason with an unreasonable family member is like plumbing; once you attempt to fix it yourself, you've got a turd sliding across the tile and you soon find yourself knee-deep in crap wondering how you got here. Especially when dealing with substance abusers who typically stop growing emotionally once addiction sets in. Or the family manipulator, who can play the victim card with you or your parents, using them to achieve and push their agenda, while hurting others in the process.
It is important to understand that a person can not reason with an unreasonable person. Understand that you can not win an argument, make arrangements, intervene to help without being taken advantage of, have a sit-down discussion with them about your concerns and fears and think that they will understand, change, agree or acknowledge it and move forward without some sort of outrageous backlash. Manipulators will always try to pull a fast one over family and friends to get what they want. [...] Identify those people who are *-bent on having things stay the way they are, are argumentative and defensive about the smallest things, or could care less about what ideas you have about helping them. [...] Unreasonable family members will mud-sling, yell, curse, lash-out and make a scene all because they are unwilling to attempt to compromise to reach a common goal you both have. Always keep a level head and never engage a crazy person, someone that just does not see things your way or a complete idiot. Because even if they are a blood relative, its a fight that goes nowhere...
3. Never Judge Past Mistakes. The past is the past. [...] Dysfunctional family members will use past incidents and guilt as ammunition against shameful family members as an excuse for their own questionable behavior. [...]
4. Never, Ever Argue! When you have an adult family member that is argumentative, manipulative, spoiled, a substance abuser, bi-polar, unreasonable, or is opportunistic and self-centered; why argue with them? Never allow yourself to get sucked into confrontations when you know that this person is dramatic and easily offended. As adults, we know what topics of discussion are sensitive to our closest family members and relatives. Do not push those buttons unless your looking to ruin your own day. If you have a strained relationship with certain family members, be courteous and respectful at a distance if it can not be fixed, repaired or in their eyes, nothing is wrong. [...] Not being confrontational with irrational family members does not make you passive, it makes you stress free concerning them. It takes 2 people to argue and without one of them, the other person still yelling and ranting seems unstable and crazy. Arguing is the most no productive form of communication. Arguing with a dysfunctional family member is just plain stupid on your part, especially if you know better. So avoid the headaches, stress, and the pointless questions the sane members of your family can not even answer and do not argue with the insane problematic ones! You will live longer...

[Dutch Uncle]

Thanks MaryAnn 

You have done well here, grasshopper!  But, can tell that you are still struggling a bit with the decision, choice, you want to make here. 

You bet. And I want to take my time.
Better not make rash decisions, while there is still plenty of time to respond.

Kill her with kindness,

Love that concept 

You are a intelligent, warm, and caring person.  Please do not let your sis get the better of you.

Thanks so much!

[MaryAnn]

Dutch, that is an awesome read!

Trying to reason with an unreasonable family member is like plumbing; once you attempt to fix it yourself, you've got a turd sliding across the tile and you soon find yourself knee-deep in crap wondering how you got here.

[/b]

That is so true.  I totally relate to this one.    I am so PROUD of myself....  I actually learned all of this on my own in life and it is exactly what I have done with my crazy family.  Kill'em with kindness, stay at a distance, and never waste time arguing with them.  It is completely unproductive.  Now, if I could just get my husband to learn that one.

If you have a strained relationship with certain family members, be courteous and respectful at a distance if it can not be fixed, repaired or in their eyes, nothing is wrong. [...] Not being confrontational with irrational family members does not make you passive, it makes you stress free concerning them.

Perfect!

Thank you for sharing this Dutch, this made my day!  I actually feel good, validated, that I have been doing the right thing as far as family is concerned in the effort to take care of myself.  Now, I just have to figure out everything else.....

Your the best!

MaryAnn