All hoovers after going NC with DramaSis and DramaMama. Will it ever end?

[woodsgnome]

Hi Dutch,

Well, I made a clean break 40 years ago and never looked back. So it's not like I can put myself out there and say I know what you're going through; mine was a 1-way ticket out without regrets. As I've prob said here a few times, yes I created a physical escape from the pain, but the EF's rage on despite it all.

***trigger ahead--end of first sentence***

Nowadays, the only threat to my FOO peace would be a much older sister who, back in the dark days, abetted the m in all sorts of abuse, like holding the bathroom door shut when m would follow me in and.... Other stuff occurred all along, at least she'd moved out by the time I hit high school, which was bad enough as it was (hideous as it turned out, I partially chose to go to a private religious * in lieu of going to where she'd gone).

Years later, she did find where I'd gone. The worst was when she found one of my acting gigs and showed up in the audience. I toughed it out, ignored her after, drank a few extra that night, but the terror passed and she lost the track again.

Later she tried to contact me via holiday and b-day cards for a while; at first I responded with either snide or downright insulting cards of my own (albeit creative). Then I just stopped; what/why/am I doing this to myself, period. Mary Ann said to "kill with kindness" but I'd have to really dig to find any k for what she was a part of. The terrific website piece you posted talks about not having to accept the stress. Yup! . No stress has always been bottom line for me.

Once she made it to where I am; but she thought it wise, I think, to have 2 of her grown kids accompany her, sensing how nasty I might be if she just showed up alone.  The kids turned out to be marvelous distractions; didn't even need to look at her. Lately, the good news is the cards have stopped coming.

I sense from how this thread has come down that you're leaning towards cutting the ties (and they sure do bind, eh?).  It seems that you're still slightly hesitant. Regardless of your choices, at least it seems like you're approaching it from a much better place with with regard to the emotional storm.

I wish you the best.     

[Dutch Uncle]

Thanks so much, woodsgnome. 

[Dutch Uncle]

I did need some time to ponder what you posted. 

Well, I made a clean break 40 years ago and never looked back.

I'd like to do that as well. The only complicating factor is that my (divorced) parents, in their 80's now, are likely to pass away at some point in the not-so-far-away future. So I'll have to deal with her at those events. And I don't want to stir the hornet's nest unnecessarily before that.
Having made the NC as far as it is now has already been a big decision for me, and telling my dad and bro that...
If it hadn't been for the expected funerals I think I'd have made a 'clean cut' already.
So I'm firm in my commitment to NC, but the question is: just how NC? If that makes any sense...

***trigger ahead--end of first sentence***

Nowadays, the only threat to my FOO peace would be a much older sister who, back in the dark days, abetted the m in all sorts of abuse, like holding the bathroom door shut when m would follow me in and....

That's hideously sadistic.   

Years later, she did find where I'd gone. The worst was when she found one of my acting gigs and showed up in the audience. I toughed it out, ignored her after, drank a few extra that night, but the terror passed and she lost the track again.

Yay you! 

Mary Ann said to "kill with kindness" but I'd have to really dig to find any k for what she was a part of.

I would be hard pressed as well to find kindness for sis... 
I've read it though that I could 'kill her' with kindness for/by myself. I could be kind to myself, and in my manners, and still 'finish her off'.
I wish my sis no ill, will do her no ill, but that's about it.

I sense from how this thread has come down that you're leaning towards cutting the ties (and they sure do bind, eh?).

They sure do  .

Thanks again  .

[MaryAnn]

Hi Dutch Uncle & Woodsgnome 

Woodsgnome,  I agree with DU.  The abuse you suffered as kid from you M and Sis is "hideously sadistic" and you deserved better.  I can't imagine that type of abuse from a M and Sister  .  I can understand why you would not be able to extend any K to her and no one would blame you.  I have a younger brother that is following in his dad's footsteps and later in life has decided on the Narcissistic path and thinks he is better than everyone else.  I do not fall for his manipulation nor do I care what my FOO thinks of me anymore.  As a result, no one calls anymore because they know that I will not relay information to other family member's to assist them in their agenda's or let them use me.   

Like DU, I have minimal contact with my D and B simply because of my mom.  She is only in her late 60's so I will have to try to not make too many waves so that when the time comes, I can work with them through it and then NC will happen.  I will have no reason to remain in contact.  Family does not make me feel warm and fuzzy  .  For people that had loving families, they do not seem able to really relate, do they?  It is like they look at you and think that you are exaggerating how your FOO is and that it could have never been that bad. 

DU - Exactly.  That is the message I intended.  I do not kill them with kindness to be nice to them, it is for myself and self care .  Using a positive against a negative.   And a Narcissist and / or a manipulator do not see it as kindness towards them, believe me, they are .  I have lived it.  It was tough sometimes not to stoop down as low as they would.  Nothing aggravates a manipulator more than not being able to get a reaction out of your or manipulate you to get the desired results.  And, in their frustration, they will eventually show their true colors.  But, taking the high ground, staying positive and use appropriate manners, it allows us to still feel good about ourselves.  We didn't use a negative to respond to a negative.  It isn't like math, 2 negatives do not make a positive in terms of how we think and feel. That does not mean that we said anything "Kind" to them to validate them or make them feel good.  It just means we kept it professional, used manners, politeness and gave them no reaction to their selfishness, abuse or hatred.  I know that may be difficult for some but just like the article you posted, it really does work or at least it did for me.  Many times, when they say ugly things, judge, or attack me, I simply play stupid.  I do not give them any reaction at all.  I play the part of Miss Woosh and just let them think I didn't catch what they said.  I mean, really, who are they anyway?  They live in their own little world and their messages of hate and disapproval just really do not matter. Nobody is listening to them anyway.

MaryAnn    

[Dutch Uncle]

So, i have reached a decision.

I have send her this:

Dear [name], (Dear as in "dear customer service")

I'm not coming to your birthday party.

I wish you a pleasant day, and also:
Congratulations on your birthday, and many more years to come. (a rather standard wish to grant on somebody's birthday)

Greetings, Dutch Uncle. 

Thank you all for your help, aid and support, and/or for just listening to me 

I have made an elaborate post on this decision in my Recovery Journal. http://outofthefog.net/C-PTSD/forum/index.php?topic=2170.msg14838#new
So if you find this ending with a fizzle: I redirect you there. 

BONUS:
I have wanted to post this video a long time...
This is my sis.
(the laugh-tape that's inserted is a bit annoying, but what the heck)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gk-OfmmRaqs
PS: I actually send my mom this once, and her reply was: "That kid will surely make it in life! Bravo!"  Not exactly what I had expected  .

[arpy1]

Perfect! i am proud of you D/Uncle. you done good. that was a tough one. 

[woodsgnome]

The downer is she'll try again.

The upper is you know yourself better, your strength of spirit and where you need to be.

        

[Dutch Uncle]

The downer is she'll try again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Wl_FsEc_Gk

The upper is you know yourself better, your strength of spirit and where you need to be.
        

Thanks so much! 

(edited to add (in case it wasn't clear): your reply has strengthened me in feeling confident that if she is to "bring it on", I'll withstand the assault.
Pfff, effortlessly. I got an umbrella now. I whole bunch of them, if I were to lose my own. Thanks people!.  )

[stillhere]

Congratulations, Dutch Uncle!  You've not only made a decision, but you've also thought through many possibilities.  And then, at last, you've done what you need to do.

I usually find that, if I give a decision enough time and attention, I can be confident enough not to look back.  I wish that much peace for you. 

But you are right in knowing that your sister will try to draw you back.  She may eventually give up but probably not after many tries.  You are also right, I think, in anticipating the loss of your parents.  Even if you can predict your own response to some extent, you can't know the circumstances.

My father died about five years ago.  He spent about a week in a hospice far away from me.  My mother and brothers were present, as I was "supposed" to be and would have been if I didn't so fear my mother's violence, both physical and emotional.   And apparently she now has a gun (I'm in the U. S.).  I knew I couldn't go to the hospice with any assurance of safety. 

I've wondered, off and on, whether I'd have gone if my "only" fear had been emotional abuse.  I actually dread it more.  And it would have been a protracted period of verbal denigration and blame for my father's death (even though he was elderly).

Perhaps you'll be able to avoid such decisions.  You are wise, though, to know that they are coming.

[MaryAnn]

I'm with Arpy1 on this one .  You response is perfect.  It is professional, respectful, and you left her nothing to use against you .  And, Woodsgnome is right, she will try again .  But, if you keep her to emails you should be fine.  It will always give you time to think about how you are going to respond.  It will drive her crazy and eventually she will either stop or do something that crosses a major line and warrants that restraining order you had contemplated getting once upon a time.

Talking to someone like this in person is a bigger challenge.  It is hard face to face to not give them the satisfaction of at least a reaction.  Mine situation worked in reverse order. It is one time that my ability to dissociate and depersonalize served me well.  I actually drove my aunt crazy face to face first, then she said she would only communicate by phone or email.  It was easier for me to pull of by telephone and I was even better at it.  She finally got made and said she would only communicate by email.  Even better, I had everything in writing.  And, I am a pretty good writer, at least I think, and she is not all the smart, so the email was a cake walk.  Then she would only communicate through lawyers which was perfect.  Hers was her son-in-law.  It was so awesome when he had to go back and explain to her what would happen if she forged any signatures on any more checks.  I guess she thought with the further she distanced me the more she could get away with stealing.  But it was quite the opposite, she only made it easier to document all the criminal things she pulled.  But this process took months before it got to the point of no contact.

Good Job Dutch Uncle!  


Oh, and I think I just saw your sis fly by.... she really gets around doesn't she!

And, the video is hilarious but your mom's reaction is very disturbing 

[Dutch Uncle]

I usually find that, if I give a decision enough time and attention, I can be confident enough not to look back.  I wish that much peace for you. 

Thank you.
And I agree that it is in general beneficial to give decisions time and attention to gain confidence in them.

I've wondered, off and on, whether I'd have gone if my "only" fear had been emotional abuse.  I actually dread it more.  And it would have been a protracted period of verbal denigration and blame for my father's death (even though he was elderly).

Perhaps you'll be able to avoid such decisions.  You are wise, though, to know that they are coming.

I hope I'll have gained more resources by the time my parents will pass away. And I actually have confidence in that. I also have the feelings that episodes like this are 'great' practice. Bro and dad will probably not take 'her side', but be 'sitting on the fence' most likely. And I have friends as a support system. I could probably stay in a hotel with one of them (they could work shifts  ), so I can blow of steam.
A hospice situation or long sickbed is going to be stressful no doubt, but probably manageable. Sis can act out all her wailing besides their beds. They'll be in 'good care'  . uHPDmom and she can be as dramatic together as they'll always have been, and Dad is an introvert, so he'll not want people besides his bed every day, all day anyway. Sis can have 'em.

Thanks for sharing. 

[Dutch Uncle]

Thank you, MaryAnn.

It will drive her crazy and eventually she will either stop or do something that crosses a major line and warrants that restraining order you had contemplated getting once upon a time.

She's been quiet for 8 months.  I think that hurricane has died out. Pfew, that was a close call.

Talking to someone like this in person is a bigger challenge.

I've given up on meeting her completely. The last time we met on neutral ground was horrible. I might bump into her at some social occasion, but that's it. The stalking episode happened when I refused to meet her face to face. Calls I then let ring, and when she decided to spill her bile on my answering machine, I made her a post-card cut out of a brown cardboard-box saying: "*?" (frontside: Full size) and told her my answering machine was not a garbage dump for her discontent. "Oh, but I wasn't discontent at aaalllll. How could you think that?  ". I ignored that. Never heard from her on the phone again. 

And, the video is hilarious but your mom's reaction is very disturbing 

Very. I was still in the FOG to fully 'appreciate' her reply, but it did puzzle me, something was definitely 'Off'. Now I think she saw herself in it. She's like that too, and has gotten away with it most of her life. So yeah, I can see now why she said: "That kid will rule the world." The sad thing is: (s)he might. But at least the (supposedly) Grandparents, and the dog, are not falling for it (pun intended). There still is some hope for the kiddo. 
For mom and sis: not so much...

[MaryAnn]

.......and when she decided to spill her bile on my answering machine, I made her a post-card cut out of a brown cardboard-box saying: "*?" (frontside: Full size) and told her my answering machine was not a garbage dump for her discontent. "Oh, but I wasn't discontent at aaalllll. How could you think that?  ".

Oh, that is awesomely hilarious! 

And love the reply, typical of a 

Didn't think of that, but you probably hit the nail on the head, she probably did see herself.  Scary!

Good night Dutch Uncle!  I will check to see if you have any more adventures tomorrow!

MaryAnn 

[Dutch Uncle]

So, it's been three full days... And I must confess I have lived with the Fear of Anticipation of the 'other shoe to drop'. (as I think the expression is).

No shoe, no drop. 
No flying monkeys, no nothing.

I'm starting to feel better and better about it all.
I feel I might really pull this off, this NC thingy. 

[arpy1]

we are so rooting for you with this one, dear D/U, that even if 5 pairs of hobnail boots drop and a whole flock of monkeys start winging their way through the blue, you will not come to harm. besides, you really have got stronger through this last episode. i have a feeling that any further incursions of her part will not get far with you now that you have stood your ground.