All hoovers after going NC with DramaSis and DramaMama. Will it ever end?

[tesscaline]

My 'sis' still does that, in her hoovers: "I want to have a good relationship with you." Yet I know, from experience, that with her the relationship will always be exactly that: the 'good relationship' is (and has been) always something that will happen at some point in the future. There will never be a point, nor has there been a point where 'sis' says: "OK, it's good now, it's not something I want anymore, because we have a good relationship now, my needs are met."
The same blogger made a post about it, that I only read today, and it does strike home: Narcissists & The Art of Future-Faking

I'm not sure that they're actually lying, so much as that their idea of what a "good relationship" looks like is so warped and corrupted, that they can't understand the complaint that the relationship is bad.  I think they also can't see beyond themselves, so when the relationship is good for them, they think it's good for everyone, even when it's actively destructive to everyone else.  Which is sad, in it's own way. 

[Dutch Uncle]

I'm not sure that they're actually lying

Quite probably she's not lying. This is actually something I'm learning nowadays. As far as I understand it, Narcissists (cluster B's) are brutally honest. Alas the focus is on the brutality, not so much the honesty...
(I think that in one of the articles I linked to, or in some others where she tells her about her experiences with a narc, she tells that her husband for 13 years would say "I can take you or leave you". It took her many years to realize that no truer words were ever spoken.
Ah, here it is: Historical Rejection: Why the Narcissist Gives Us Up )

I think you summed it up quite well, I see it the same way you do.
She wants to have a good relationship with me. And that's it. No hidden agenda's or anything. This is what she wants: to want it. Not to have it. I think this also where co-dependecy comes into play, although I haven't figured out exactly how.
I may never even try to understand that all the way through. Dealing with the results/outcome/effects of what causing it is hard enough as it is. What's understanding the cause of it going to help me? Still, "curious minds want to know" and all that, but quite possibly that is what's keeping me 'hooked'.

It's my sis who for 20 years at least has been bugging me "she wants to have a good relationship" followed or preceded (often both  ) by a long list of flaws of mine.
The last years I've started to feel she wants me to love her as the husband she doesn't want to have (she's gay). I have to be the perfect man (for her or in general "how men should be"), yet she'll never want one.
She's very good at "double binds". Once I learned of that concept I was able to get her of my back a lot better, since I saw through the no-win scenarios and refused to play the games (which I had done far too often in our long relationship).

Only for her to up-the-ante, unfortunately. Resulting in (emotional) blackmail. (which is a "double bind" without any pretense left that there's any good in it for the victim, I guess.)

edited to add, just for my record: Two days a go I received an SMS. Which was meant from somebody else, whose name is a bit like mine. So she might just ave mis-selected the addressee for the SMS, or it might have been a very veiled hoover-attempt. The message itself was far from pressing, which makes me wonder.
Or probably I should better say: "How crazy is it I even wonder what intent could be behind such a plausible deniable 'faux pas' on her behalf..." Was she hoping I would contact her with: "Hey sis, you send this to the wrong guy. You better text him again, as he will not have received your SMS." I deleted the message without much ado. But the fact I'm typing this up, days after the event itself, is telling in itself: It takes just a misdirected SMS to occupy a part in my brain and memory. And this memory gets 'uploaded' in my consciousness at random.
Whatever it is, she is a crazy-maker, as far as I experience.

[Dutch Uncle]

I hope I'm not boring and/or upsetting people with my continuous whine about uHPDsis, but I need to vent it somewhere...
So feel free to ignore this "here they go again"... This is becoming more of a "recovery from sis"-journal than anything else...

I got another text-message today: "Hi [name=me], this Easter Monday I'll be doing an EasterBrunch at noon. [name=bro] will be there too. If you feel like it you're welcome. In that case, send me a text message you will attend. Love, [name=sis]."

That's less than 48 hour notice. And she lives a 4 hour drive away. Not really a "just hop by"-case is it? (What? I need to get up at 7, to even be able to get there by noon!)
She has never done an EasterBrunch before. That I know off. She's not religious by the way.
*?
I'll tell you (=me) what the    this is: DramaSis is taking the place of the "Mater-of-the-Family" after her "Narcissistic Discard" of me when she excluded me, willfully, from the Jubilee-birthday-party for our 'mom', post-her-(emotional)-Blackmail.
I'm set up for being ScapeGoated for not attending.

I can't find the article, but in one someone said: "I will not attend any Family-get-together that is sprung on me with less then 48 hours". Good grief, the straws I clutch to keep my balance in this madness. Found it at last: Freeing Yourself From the Influences of Harmful Relatives
The whole paragraph resonates with my experiences over the last years with my FOO:

I tried for a few years to make things work. I made allowances for their lifestyles, beliefs and opinions. I was candid with those family members about my boundaries and how I wished to be treated. I asked that they respect me, my work and my time. I enforced my boundaries by rewarding respectful treatment and rebuking disrespectful behaviour. I refused to attend family functions that violated my safety or that were sprung on me with less than 48 hours notice. Eventually, I was missing more family events than I was attending.

[/i]

I also see TherapistMom has called today.
edited to add: I listened to the voicemail (I had to listen to a lot of other voicemails as well) and she has ALSO arranged for a get-togheter, tonight, with EnablerDad, Bro with his kids (not his wife) and she wondered if she could "seduce" me as well.
Good Grief. Are uHPD-TherapistMom and uHPDsis in direct competition with each other? Quite possibly. This would fit with the Narcissist Mother and her competition with her daughter. And vice versa with the Narcissist Daughter competing with her Mom I suppose.
Dirty 'mom' KNOWS I don't want to meet her and dad on the same day. She really thrives on 'creating' pain... It's so nasty, so devious: under the veil of a nice family-diner, oh how thoughtful and harmonious she is  , she is luring me in a situation she is very well aware of I'm not comfortable with.
Bro has a busy weekend!   I guess he will take the opportunity to  on the unfair visa-regulations in place so his wife can't be there as well. Who he in fact would rather not have around at all.
This family is bonkers.

Somebody please tell me I'm not going bananas.


On a side-note: Easter is the only Christian Holiday I have ever felt worthwhile/valuable/significant (in contrast to X-mas). "Original Sin has been lifted, let's live unburdened." has been my (perhaps somewhat heathen/frivolous) take on it. This year easter will mark, almost to the day, me getting the results of my SCID-II test that conclusively has proven that the fear TherapistMom has installed in me of being 'flawed' were unfounded. I'll celebrate THAT. If there has been anything that has propelled me to recovery, and joining this community, it's been that a year ago I finally had the guts to voice my suspicion that TherapistMom has been the prime 'cause' for my mental struggle.
And that this suspicion has been validated by the SCID-II. 

edited to add: I couldn't stand it I couldn't find the website with the "48 hour"-rule, but now I've found it. I'm not sure if this a OCD-trait, or just a deep sense of safety I'm craving for. Possibly both.

[MaryAnn]

Hi Dutch Uncle,

You are definitely not going or are bananas.  From my own experience there are actually more dysfunctional, bonkers family's than there are healthy ones.  But my experience is limited to my FOO and my husbands FOO so there might be plenty of healthy families out there, I have just never met or experienced one.  My husbands FOO is bonkers due to a generational cycle of abuse but it is a result of, hate to say this, some inbreeding a couple of generations ago and sexual abuse of children. 

It is Easter Sunday and I am working on my second cup of coffee with Irish Cream to numb myself for the days events.  Going to both sides today.  My obligatory LC for the year.  I will be drinking wine later in order to cope.   Why can't we just accept that these people do not accept us for us and stop worrying or allowing anything they do upset us?  You have at least learned to say "No" I am not going.  I haven't even been brave enough to take that step yet.  I keep telling myself it is easier to go and get it over with rather than deal with the backlash of not going at all.  But easier for who?  I think it is easier for them because they know that I somehow still feel a responsibility to family regardless of how awful they treat me.  But, it is not easier on me.  Depending on what is said and how I am triggered, it can take days or weeks to get myself back on track again. 

So, Dutch, you are not bananas, not bonkers.  You are seeing it all in the right perspective unfortunately.  They play games, the manipulate, they are devious all in the name of making themselves somehow feel better about who they are.  They are not really worried about you, us.  I have a mother in law that is undiagnosed PS and she pits her 2 sons against each other,  I have a grandma who is PS and she works to pit her 3 siblings against one another.  A father that is an uNPD, a brother that has become his spitting image, a codependent mother.  And that is just the tip of the iceberg.  Many people would say that it is not possible to have all of that, that it has to be you, not them.  So in a way, I guess they are right.  It is us because we do not think like our family.  We can't change how they think.  We can only change ourselves.  And I think you would agree, there is no way that I am going to change who I am and what I believe so that I can be accepted by my FOO, because they are full of hate, fear, and contempt.  I have to accept that I need to find a new family of friends, like this forum, who think much the same as I do and want, need acceptance, kindness, support, and love.

Hang in there DU, you are doing okay and do not let the phone calls, the texts, the intentional games devised to make you feel guilt or to look bad to others in your family.  Screw them.  They are the ones that are miserable in all reality.  What a small life they lead.  We can see the big picture and have so much more to offer and deserve to be free and happy.

Lol, Mary Ann 

[Dutch Uncle]

Thank you so much, MaryAnn. 

Hi Dutch Uncle,
You are definitely not going or are bananas.  From my own experience there are actually more dysfunctional, bonkers family's than there are healthy ones. But my experience is limited to my FOO and my husbands FOO so there might be plenty of healthy families out there, I have just never met or experienced one.

Unfortunately, I think your assessment is spot on.

It is Easter Sunday and I am working on my second cup of coffee with Irish Cream to numb myself for the days events.  Going to both sides today.

You have my sympathy. And that is not meant in any derogatorative way.

I keep telling myself it is easier to go and get it over with rather than deal with the backlash of not going at all.  But easier for who?  I think it is easier for them because they know that I somehow still feel a responsibility to family regardless of how awful they treat me.  But, it is not easier on me.  Depending on what is said and how I am triggered, it can take days or weeks to get myself back on track again.

Quite. It's been one year of NC for me now, and I must confess it's only marginally better this year.
But I guess am convinced it's the margin that counts. Can't be sure until next year though. 
It's validations like yours here that I crave for in moments like this. These people ARE crazy makers. So hard to convince one-self of one's sanity, when they show up in droves (even if just one person is attracting the crowd and passing it on as "see? they side with me!" )

So, Dutch, you are not bananas, not bonkers.  You are seeing it all in the right perspective unfortunately.  They play games, the manipulate, they are devious all in the name of making themselves somehow feel better about who they are. [...] Hang in there DU, you are doing okay and do not let the phone calls, the texts, the intentional games devised to make you feel guilt or to look bad to others in your family.  Screw them.  They are the ones that are miserable in all reality.  What a small life they lead.  We can see the big picture and have so much more to offer and deserve to be free and happy.

Lol, Mary Ann 

Thanks again, and to you I say as well: Hang in there, dear MaryAnn. You'll survive this year too. 

[Dutch Uncle]

Rather than starting a new thread, I'll continue here, even though enablerDad is at it now. I just need a place to vent. I guess you are all as bored with this as I am. But I'm angry and frustrated as well. What a drain.


Enabler uAspergersDad is going to throw a family-get-together.

First boundary-violation: he isn't supposed to e-mail me (unless it's urgent). He circumvented this by sending me the mail in print (neat) with a question added in handwriting he would like to add me to the group-e-mail "for speed". So far so good. It turned out he added me straight away.
Then why ask? Rhetorical question. Plausible deniability. Right?

Second boundary violation: I don't want to see DramaSis, nor DramaMama.
Third boundary violation: He sprung DramaSis on me a month or two back already. Sneaky weasel. 

So I got into a bit of an EF, wrote four different replies, just for the * of it (one was very good: I spilled all the beans. Might not be the smartest though). Decided to let it simmer for a while, the date is six weeks from now.

I open my e-mail program (and saw then he had already mailed me) and there is a mail from the women who divorced him (DramaMama a.k.a. TherapistMom) ("ex" is a dirty word in his vocabulary, he practically starts to have a fit/seizure if I say that) that she can't make it that day as she's somewhere else, she suggests other dates, but then... oops...wait...ehrmm... perhaps she can make it that day after all... "Good luck preparing", ditched Enabler!
Good Grief. This spells HPD, right? The ball has hardly started rolling or it's Chaos Manufacture already.

Now I've decided to go and watch this whole mess play out. I almost posted a "I will not be there at any date, please get me of this list." But decided not to.
I'm curious, and it may be even schadenfreude I'm anticipating, but I am really curious how NC-DramaSis is going to handle this, and bro too.

I think it might be wise for me to tell everybody only at the latest possible time I can't come. Why rush the news? Last time I proposed to organize something with bro and sis for mom's jubilee, it took them eight months to royally screw me over in the end by cutting me out from their private diner with mom.

For curiosity and novice sake, I'll hold my cards to my chest for once. Whaddayathink? One has to try everything once in your life, right?

[Dutch Uncle]

Good Grief, this event has me pre-occupied.

I have written a very clear letter to my parents and siblings, that I intend to send them at some point. Just them, not the extended 'family' consisting of spouses and grandchildren (of whom two are young adults now), as they have nothing to do with this mess.
I also have clearly stated that as far as I'm concerned it's up to my siblings to decide what will be shared of my letter with their children and spouse, and that it's not up to the grandparents to bring this subject up with the grandchildren, unless first discussed and approved by the respective parents.
My aim? To protect the grandchildren of the Narcs. If it will do any good is anybody's guess, but it's my last contribution to end the family-poisoning.

I will be spilling some beans in the letter, making it clear I'm NC with DramaSis and DramaMama with the only JADE being: "they know why, and you all know why, either because I already told you or because you were there." (verbatim)
Apart from telling everybody the obvious about my NC, I also told everybody the obvious about my LC with Bro (the one who is passing on the abuse to his children) and EnablerDad. Again, the only JADE being: "They know why, and some of you may also know why, and if you don't it's because I don't owe you any explanation, period. I can handle my own relationships without it being any of your business, thank you."
Oh, and I do mention I've been 'pulled a fast one' once too many and this (the NC's and the LC's) are the result of it.
And I'm not backing down.

At the moment I feel I have to send this. As it is, everybody DOES know. Yet everybody can hide behind the facade that they don't and/or don't know what the others know. Given the enmeshment, triangulation, gossip, backstabbing, chaos manufacture and overall manipulation the "not knowing" is nonsense off course, but the Plausible Deniability is a fact.
So, it's my shot to end the plausible deniability at least. The rest will stay, of course. But that can't be helped.
I guess it's also an attempt to stop the Flying Monkeys falling for the 'victim blaming' tricks, the DARVO of the Narcs. It probably won't work, but at least I will be a 100% certain I have left no room for wiggling, on any party involved.

I hope it will cure my "Learned Helplessness", bit by bit.
I feel pretty good, strong, firm and ready to take the Fight to my abusers. And then calmly walk away, leaving the mess where it originates. A descent and appropriate Flight.
Shifting the Burden.

[Dutch Uncle]

One adult grandson is not coming. Citing graduation time, and too much travel (he's living abroad).
Sounds legit. Though perhaps also convenient.

My plan is to wait to reply in any way until either bro or sis has replied first.
I'm expecting to see 'private' (as in: behind dad's back, hidden from public view) e-mails from both of them before that. As it is, I happen to have an appointment with bro this week (made previously). I plan on not discussing this 'party' with him, keep MC/Grey Rock ("I haven't decided yet").

[Dutch Uncle]

If I've read it right, you've gone no contact with your sister, is that correct?

I am NC.
Lots of Flying Monkeys and enablers around.
Who try to hold down my arm for her to push the cigarette butts in. 
I probably will have to ditch them all.

Thanks for the analogy and helpful advise. 

[Dutch Uncle]

I had a long meeting with bro today.

Originally I thought this would be primarily on why I am not visiting, but the whole FOOdoo is a tricky subject as well, including his Flying Monkey behavior.
Since I don't want to deal with both issues at the same time (a de-enmeshment strategy I am following) I asked him which one he wanted to address today:
- me not visiting him
- FOOdoo

He chose to address FOOdoo, specifically my NC with 'mom'.
Fine.
I told him I don't want to see her ever again. Explained why: she always does what one has specifically told her not to do.
Brought up the subject of 'sis' too: same deal.

It was a long conversation, with me doing most of the talking as I had to keep reiterate it was over and done with, and that all talk he now receives of both   is nonsense, that they know perfectly well what is wrong, their neither of them have even asked me what is wrong etc. etc. , despite the fact they tell him they can't contact me.

He suspected I wouldn't be at dad's 'party' (good thinking bro) and I said it indeed was very unlikely, and that I was going to see how others would react in any case, but chances were indeed slim. (no need to be too 'certain'/outspoken at this point, the message needs to sink in with him in any case.)

Overall impression: he now has seen 'this is it', he even sees/acknowledges some of my points (even though he does not necessarily agree or has had the same experiences with them). I spilled a lot of additional beans. I don't know if this will do any good or will backfire, but at the time he was baffled by some of the stuff I told him.

I feel good about it in general: I reiterated my NC with them, made clear the ball is not in my court and specifically told him that even IF they would 'take ownership' and apologize, it might still not make a difference for my NC. He appeared accepting of the idea: "I understand" he said.

I DID NOT BACK DOWN ONE INCH.
I feel proud, self-assured, and at peace in this eye of the storm.
Come * or high water: I'm staying my course, and will live my truth.



edit: Changed the title to (hopefully) reflect better to what part of this thread it actually is an update on. DramaSis is largely out of the picture, she's more a 'collateral IED' doing her damage through Flying Monkeys than anything else. And this meeting with bro is more of a 'removing the fuse' of DramaSis' machinations (hopefully) than that it's about her.

[Dutch Uncle]

Right.

I got snail-mail today from dad.

Behind the scenes grandson II and GF have replied to dad: no show.
Bro also replied: Show. (as far as I can make out: together with his whole (dysfunctional) FOC)
DramaSis does what can be expected of a uHPD: has to reschedule stuff, may or may not work, changes to the proposed plan of dad will have to be made in any case. Most likely. Not sure off course! Keep the reigns! Can't afford to loose any semblance of control, now can we. Or opt out at the last moment, citing: Hey, I never said I would be able to come. All bases are covered. Such a sly  
Apparently will bring her wife along, who has a longstanding NC with her Mother-in-Law.    <--- or is that mean? 


So much for his breach of "No e-mail anymore, dad": most of them simply e-mail him privately, hidden from public 'exposure'. And it's left up to him to inform the others...    What a disrespectful bunch. Well, they are his own 'breed', so I guess I should not take pity on the 'man'.

So I've written another draft to dad. Will have to think if I will really send it. But as it stands right now I will tell him I'm not coming, will reaffirm my NC with Dramamama and DramaSis, will express my disappointment all this has become another cloak-and-dagger thing, that I will publicly state my non-show a day or so after he will have received the letter (so he doesn't have to make the same effort to them as he now has to do on their behalf to me) but that contrary to what I will have written in my letter to him, I will not state why I'm not coming. With the caveat (in my letter to him) that they all already know all to well, despite their woe-is-me attitude (fakery/gaslighting/chaos manufacture. <--- that crucial information I will not tell dad, as it will blow up in my face.  ).

[Dutch Uncle]

I wrote a letter to dad where I reaffirmed my NC with 'sis' and 'mom'. I told him once again they know why, even if they claim to be totally unaware. (Playing the "Murdered Innocence" is the phrase we use in Dutch for such behavior.)  I didn't specify (JADE) as he doesn't want to know anyway. Why I don't want to see his ex-wife will hit an even bigger wall of denial than with sis, so I'm not bothering with telling him. I didn't use the word "denial" (nor "ex-wife" as this throws him in a fit) but that's about the only 'softening' I did.
I also made clear that since most family-members choose to write him, and thus he has to inform me on what they write him on their 'plans' is a disappointment, and for me shows there's no mutual effort in this AND it makes clear they don't inform me, contact me, not even through such a simple thing as a group-mail. Then I spilled the beans that bro and sis excluded me from a social event I wanted to organize together with them, and they in the end did it together without even informing me.
I felt I could and should as I had confronted bro about this last week. Where I also made clear to bro that this exclusion-event (closely tied to DramaSis' (emotional) Blackmail: in fact this was the planned result if I wouldn't fall for the Blackmail) makes clear that 'sis' is shutting/cutting me out, not vice versa. I simply have stopped trying to get back in a relationship where I am discarded at a whim.

Told dad I would post my choice of not coming to this event myself in the group-mail, that I'm an adult man and I have no need for dad to pass on the message to the others, that I'm capable of addressing my family-members myself, and that I would do so on the day I expected him to get my letter. And that I would keep it short.

And so I posted a short message to all:

Hi all,

I've understood from dad I'm the only one who hasn't replied to the invitation yet. Oops! I had no idea. Surprising!

So forthwith I've made my choice: I'm not participating.

I would appreciatie if I could be taken off the list of addressees of this event's group mail.

[My name].

I had made a lot of drafts before, some of them like this, some of them elaborate and full of JADE. I decided that since I'm so convinced I'm dealing with a couple of Narcissists here that would only backfire.
"Detach, disengage, defect" is a mantra I'm repeating to myself: it's the only way to get really OUT of this enmeshed FOO.

I felt pretty relieved after posting my mail, which supposedly is a good sign. 
Of course, I am also waiting for the other shoe to drop.
But in any case: it's another step forward, another step out of the way of my Traumatizing Stressors.
A healthy "Flight" reaction, or as I heard once somebody say who had gone NC with his mom and dad too: "It wasn't a Flight, it was an Escape."
At times I think I have yet to start on my Post-traumatic stress disorder...



edited to add: and today one of my favorite vlogsters on Narcissism Survival (and No Contact) posted this nice and inspirational video:
Happy Anniversary to Me: Two Years after the Discard

[Dutch Uncle]

Today I got a letter saying the Family-day is cancelled.      & 

Dad wrote some more than just that, but as he wrote in the opening sentence: "This letter may appear to deal with the family-day, but in reality it's about me."
Which I like, as at least this may be an opening to get out of the family-enmeshment.

Not that I expect me and my uAsperger'sDad/enablerDad to have a cuddly-snugly-cozy relationship at any point, but I'm happy my announced absence has not blown up in my face.

First impression overall: 

Another hoover survived. 


Oh, and I almost forgot the most important part: My boundaries are holding, despite the onslaught, either frontal or by flanking maneuvering via the Flying Monkeys.

[narcfree2016]

I'm so happy for you! 

Today I got a letter saying the Family-day is cancelled.      & 

Dad wrote some more than just that, but as he wrote in the opening sentence: "This letter may appear to deal with the family-day, but in reality it's about me."
Which I like, as at least this may be an opening to get out of the family-enmeshment.

Not that I expect me and my uAsperger'sDad/enablerDad to have a cuddly-snugly-cozy relationship at any point, but I'm happy my announced absence has not blown up in my face.

First impression overall: 

Another hoover survived. 


Oh, and I almost forgot the most important part: My boundaries are holding, despite the onslaught, either frontal or by flanking maneuvering via the Flying Monkeys.

[Dutch Uncle]

Oh dear. Another hoover-mail from Drama-sis.

A very elaborate one this time.
She doesn't know what's wrong  .
Then she says: "Yeah I did something wrong. I'm sorry". What did she do wrong? It doesn't say. What is she sorry for? It doesn't say.

Then she lists all kind of things that maybe I think is wrong. (note to self: notice how it is about me. Not her.)
So, the set-up is clear.
She doesn't know what's wrong, I have to tell her. What she does know is wrong, she doesn't say. The "sorry" is a pre-emptive "I don't have to talk about it". Well, I'm not going to ask. I've done that before, and got no answer.
The other stuff: at best it's me who thinks/considers it wrong. Not her. And that is exactly what I can expect if I were to reply: she might acknowledge I think it's wrong, not her.
But fat change of even that happening. 

She misses me. Yeah, she misses abusing me! She misses her Scapegoat. She misses her gaslighting me, triangulating me, manipulating me. She misses her pity-parties. The drama's she can play out. 

I wrote a sort of reply for myself, but I'm not going to respond.
It's a classic attempt to let me air my grievances, so they can be countered. Now that I have come to understand narcissistic supply, narcissistic injury etc. I know she will have a manipulative answer to any of the things she thinks that may be wrong. And a lot of them were wrong, indeed. The fact she lists them as 'possibly wrong' just means that she revels in having them done and thinking she could/can get away with them.
She will never admit they were 'wrongs'. If she would, she would have done so here and now. But just like the "I did wrong, I'm sorry" and not owning up what that wrong actually was, so will she admit any other wrong.
Because she's right after all.
I'm the crazy one for finding it wrong.

But she knows damned well she's wrong.
This is all par of the course that these people know damned well what they are doing, and they just want to be able to keep doing it. Deliberately.

I archived the hoover-mail.
Mails like these are my anchor to NC.

Another Storm weathered.