Forum for Discussion about Religion, Personal Philosophy?

[Dutch Uncle]

It sounds like we will go ahead so if you have any thoughts on where you'd like to see these new threads please let us know.

1) Positive perceptions of religion - faith is helpful to members dealing with CPTSD; and,

2) Negative perceptions of religion - religious values/behaviour of perpetrator contribute(d) to the development of the member's CPTSD (abuse cloaked as religion wielded to shame, control, etc)

I am wondering if a third thread might be relevant for those of us who consider ourselves spiritual but not religious, or who have a personal philosophy such as humanism?

I can see value in the three-stage approach. I certainly would like a "positive perceptions of non-religious philosophies" if there would be one on religion. And that should include atheism. (while I label myself agnostic, I know many would label me as atheist. Which is fine by me, the line is thin.) With of course all the bars set for not pressing ones atheism on others.

As for where they should go?
I'd say the abuse in a religious context should be with all the other abuse, so in Out of the Storm » CPTSD and Us » CPTSD and Us » Abuse (Sexual, Physical, Emotional) & Neglect/Abandonment
It might be sufficient to just add "Religious" to the sub forum's description.

The positive sides (both religious and non-religious) would best fit under the Recovery sub forum I guess, under tools of recovery? Out of the Storm » CPTSD and Us » Recovery » Tools for Recovery

But perhaps you'd like to keep the three together.
Though I think a Religion/non-Religion sub forum with all three will only emphasize the special status of "Religious Affairs", and possibly defies the purpose of making the religious abuse a subject that can be told, shared, acknowledged and possibly/hopefully resolved and recovered from, just like the other abuses.

IMHO religious abuse is not worse than any other, and no special tools are needed to work through it. In all likelihood (IMHO) it's just another one that has been thrown in the complex mix we endure in our cPTSD, and all the tools available for dealing with cPTSD can be applied to religious/spiritual or even atheist abuse equally well, and will require equal effort for us to do.

[Kizzie]

I think a Religion/non-Religion sub forum with all three will only emphasize the special status of "Religious Affairs", and possibly defies the purpose of making the religious abuse a subject that can be told, shared, acknowledged and possibly/hopefully resolved and recovered from, just like the other abuses.

IMHO religious abuse is not worse than any other, and no special tools are needed to work through it. In all likelihood (IMHO) it's just another one that has been thrown in the complex mix we endure in our cPTSD, and all the tools available for dealing with cPTSD can be applied to religious/spiritual or even atheist abuse equally well, and will require equal effort for us to do.

I agree DU, my NPDM's "good mother" beliefs were used on us in much the same way as religious belief systems are used to abuse and control, and was as tough to wrench free from as I imagine religion must be for others.

What seems to underlie the discussion in this thread is the notion that there are many types of belief systems that can nurture and sustain or abuse and degrade depending on how they are used and by whom. As such, perhaps this might benefit from a separate forum, something along the lines of: "Beliefs: The Good, The Bad and Ugly" (where "ugly" expands the causes of CPTSD beyond familial, childhood abuse to adulthood and includes abuse/trauma which is social/political/other in nature (e.g., prostitution, slavery, war zone survivors, etc). Each would have be a child board and come with an explanation. For example:

• "Good" Beliefs - This forum is for those who wish to post about any religious, spiritual or philosophical beliefs that help you in recovery/life;


• "Bad" Beliefs - This forum is for those who wish to post about any religious, philosophical or personal beliefs (yours or others) that contribute(d) to your CPTSD; and,


• "Ugly" Beliefs - This forum is for those who wish to share about any political or societal beliefs that contribute(d) to CPTSD (e.g., living in/fleeing from a war zone; slavery/prostitution, suffering ongoing abuse based on race, gender, sexual orientation, socioeconomic status, etc.).

I know that some of what is in "Ugly" could go under "Bad" but by making these types of ongoing abuse more distinct it invites those whose CPTSD does not fall into the more obvious/common childhood, familial abuse to recognize they may have CPTSD and to see OOTS as a safe haven.   

Anyway, lots of thoughts to kick around.  All feedback is welcome

[woodsgnome]

Whew! Just like religion itself, there's 1,001.735 ways to take any discussions in this vein. I've felt pretty careful, not wanting to step on toes. But that's awful, this self-stifling on top of all the other self-sabotage.

Something else...my antagonism with how my journey was sabotaged by people wearing religious garb might be obvious from what I've written in various posts, bordering on rants. Almost fair game, though, considering the rants I had to endure back in the time when I could only sit through the ones being hurled my way.

But I think what I've seen posted here that has touched on the religious minefield has stopped far short of the upper rant levels. So there's lots of good ("I was truly helped by"), bad ("awful stuff") and ugly ("I was utterly humiliated") to go around, and get around (or through).

So even if the new threads aren't open yet, I'll just say here that as an apatheist, it looks like a good approach to walk across the eggshells, as it were. Uh-oh? Apatheist? Dinna worry, it just means I'm apathetic towards religion or spiritual-whatever-it's-called. And experiencing the dungeons of religious intolerance, also stirred a deep search through spiritual literature of all sorts, just to find what I'd been denied, and to get a handle on what truly appealed to that person I wasn't allowed to be--me. For many are cold, few are frozen.

And yes, religion can even be funny...going back to the garden of eden, when the deity tipped its hand towards a preference for Chrysler products by driving his human buddies out of the garden in his Fury.

[stillhere]

A thought about labeling boards focused on religion:  I think the word "religion" or perhaps "religion/spirituality" should be explicit.  "Belief," I contend, is too general and can encompass beliefs from many sources, lots of which are already covered in the topics listed.

Besides belief (that is, theology) and a source of personal philosophy, religion is about identity, community, and control.  It is for many an extension of family, for good or ill, and so has already been discussed in a number of OOTS threads.

While I appreciate all the sensitivity expressed here, I note that "religious abuse" is increasingly a documented phenomenon, as evidenced by its Wikipedia entry:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_abuse

So I'd suggest incorporating "religion" or "religion/spirituality" in names of boards.  Perhaps one could be something like "religion/spirituality as resource in recover" and be placed under "recovery."  Another could be "religious/spiritual abuse" and be placed with "CPTSD and us." 

Making a focus on religion explicit should be helpful to new and returning members, who would then find the index of topics clearer.

I appreciate the sensitivity expressed here, and I'm  well aware that someone might be offended by a post that fingers a particular religion as a source of abuse.  But the norm on this forum has been so clearly to avoid naming names that I think the risk is minimal.

[Dutch Uncle]

What seems to underlie the discussion in this thread is the notion that there are many types of belief systems that can nurture and sustain or abuse and degrade depending on how they are used and by whom. As such, perhaps this might benefit from a separate forum, something along the lines of: "Beliefs: The Good, The Bad and Ugly"

I beg to differ, as the English can put it so eloquently well.

So perhaps I should be a bit more blunt:
It is my full intention to create, or allow, openness on Religious abuse. It has been my experience, and I have gotten the impression this is shared by others here, that Religious abuse is in the realm of taboo, just as sexual abuse still is (by and large), parental abuse, bullying and physical abuse, and getting emotional neglect recognized as abuse is also still a problem. All these are in the realm of taboo, and the more time I spend on OOTS, the more I see/witness that one of the issues we deal with as victims of these kind of abuses, is that we struggle to get the message across to those who have not experienced it themselves.

It is my impression (though I'm pretty much convinced this is not a fantasy of mine, nor an axe I have to grind) that Religious abuse escapes the scrutiny and condemnation it deserves exactly for the reason that has been mentioned here: That religion also is such a great tool for comfort (paraphrased by me). There is still a deeply held vision that where Religious abuse is perpetrated, that this must be done by those who are not 'truly religious'. And it is my personal view that exactly that is what is so hurtful for those who suffered from it: we have actually got the concept of religion 'wrong' (either the specific religion in which the abuse was perpetrated, or faith/belief in general). This adds insult to injury.

Just as there are no sections here on this forum for "Good Physical contact with parents", "Good Sex Ed.", "Good Emotional Support", "Good abandonment after Divorce", "My happy childhood/FOO" etc. etc. this forum probably does not need a "Good Religion" section.

Perhaps it's best to drop the whole notion of introducing "religion" as a positive force to be specifically mentioned in the recovery section, purely for the sensitivities that surround the acknowledgment of Religion as an abusive factor in peoples lives.
With that also the "non-religious philosophies" to offset sensitivities to that can be discarded.

And any "religious discussions" will be avoided wholesale, and the focus can be put on the issue at hand for a fair amount of people here in the community: the abuse we suffered, in a religious context, and how to deal with that.

[Dutch Uncle]

While I appreciate all the sensitivity expressed here, I note that "religious abuse" is increasingly a documented phenomenon, as evidenced by its Wikipedia entry:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_abuse

Great resource, thanks for digging that up and presenting that here.
I would like to see that issues outlined there can be addressed at the site here, for what it has been in the personal experience of those who suffered the effects, and recognize it as a contributing (or perhaps even: only (!)) factor in their experience of cPTSD.

[woodsgnome]

Quick stray thought that just floated by...now where'd it go? Ah, there it is, I'll post it here and then be gone...

The thought is just that everything done on this site/forum by its very nature is spiritual--we're exploring the core (spirit) of our lives, our innermost selves. Always/already...

There, it's out of "my" cobwebs. Spirit cleaning, I suppose.

[Dutch Uncle]

Quick stray thought that just floated by...now where'd it go? Ah, there it is, I'll post it here and then be gone...

The thought is just that everything done on this site/forum by its very nature is spiritual--we're exploring the core (spirit) of our lives, our innermost selves. Always/already...

There, it's out of "my" cobwebs. Spirit cleaning, I suppose.

Love it. 

[MaryAnn]

Reading and catching up on this thread.  The thoughts, ideas, and possible approaches from DU, stillhere, and Woodsgnome are all sentiments that I concur with. 

The Southern Baptist religion is abusive from get go as a result of their beliefs about men and women.  There are many strong believers and many take their interpretation of this religion to its extreme.  There are many of them in the U.S. I will never walk into a Southern Baptist Church again  .  My experience growing up in this church, which really seems more like a cult, is what turned to the path of agnosticism. 

It is like politics, I do not need someone or a group telling me how I should think, believe, behave, love, treat, or accept others.  I can think for myself and do not feel any religion should express hatred or intolerance towards anyone.  And, it should not tell parents how to punish their child and should never teach that physical abuse is the answer.  I belief in the "Teachings" of Jesus Christ, much like Buddhism, or Hinduism.  But, I am an INTJ / INFJ personality and do not really have a whole lot of respect for authority if it is simply because someone is entitled to it. I belief in educating and respecting all individuals so that they can form their own ideas about how they would want to treated and how they should treat others.  We are all equal, none of us or better than another.  Regardless of which religion it is, all should be open minded to different forms of love and expression as long as it is respectful, express' love in a healthy way, shows tolerance, and is not abusive. 

Sorry, that turned in to a bit a rant I guess.  But, this subject is one that I struggle with the most.  And, it is not one that I can talk about in the area I live in.  Most would look at me like I was Satan himself. They would never talk to me again if I told them that I really didn't believe in organized religion or that there is not "God" but more likely some spiritual forces at work in the vast universe that we are not meant to ever understand.  I understand why others are drawn to various religions and I am tolerant of them, respect their beliefs.  But, that same tolerance and respect is not expressed by many towards those of us that think differently and do not have faith.

MaryAnn 

[arpy1]

i checked out the link to the religious abuse article above. i have done a lot of research and i knew the facts explained there but it still managed to trigger such anguish.  the cult i was in, it ticks literally all the boxes except a couple. took me a long time even so, to accept that it was a cult. and i still feel guilty about saying it out loud. 

i have longed to find a space to be able to share openly about this still largely taboo subject. it's been such a huge part of my life and the effects that it has had on me are so deep. the cptsd i believe is a result of it, in the main.  anyway i hope this thread may be a start.

[MaryAnn]

I am right there with you Arpy1!

I feel exactly the same way as you expressed below:

i have longed to find a space to be able to share openly about this still largely taboo subject. it's been such a huge part of my life and the effects that it has had on me are so deep.

I know that many would not share the same about Southern Baptists but all you have to is look at churches like Westboro in Kansas to see how extreme it can be.  My experience is with a milder form, more covert, but they think much the same way but they do not express it as openly, publicly as the extreme cases.  But, none the less, I would say it really is a cult.

I also hope this thread is a start.

MaryAnn

[Kizzie]

So from what everyone has contributed (and tks all), perhaps the best approach to is to create a separate forum "Types of Trauma/Abuse" and include separate child boards. For example:

• Sexual Abuse (this could include sexual exploitation)
• Physical Abuse
• Emotional Abuse
• Religious Abuse
• Addiction and Abuse/Trauma (many of us were raised by parents with an addiction)
• Personality Disorders and Abuse/Trauma (many of us were raised by parents with a PD)
• Other (additional child boards could be added if/when different types are being raised regularly such as political -- living with oppression/war; societal - the cult of motherhood, being marginalized due to sexual orientation; racism....; and so on.)

This makes it clear that abuse and trauma come in many forms, some of which have  not been well recognized or are taboo.

Would this work?

As for the beliefs, tools, etc., that help us to recover perhaps we can think about including those in existing forums/child boards by adding and/or refining.

[arpy1]

perhaps the best approach to is to create a separate forum "Types of Trauma/Abuse" and include separate child boards. For example

i like this approach, kizzie, i can see it working out well 

[MaryAnn]

I like it too!

[Dutch Uncle]

Yeah. Like it.