Forum for Discussion about Religion, Personal Philosophy?

[Kizzie]

In another thread Dutch Uncle indicated he would like to talk about how his FOO's religious beliefs were partly responsible for the development of his CPTSD. (See http://outofthefog.net/C-PTSD/forum/index.php?topic=2278.msg14996#msg14996.)

Given that discussions of personal faith may be very delicate/disturbing for some, the Mod Team would like to know how members feel about this.  Please let us know below or PM one of us if you'd rather keep your opinion private.

Tks!

[Dutch Uncle]

Thanks Kizzie.

If any wish for such a thread is expressed to here, publicly or via PM, I'd like to clarify that the purpose, the usefulness of such a thread in relation to cPTSD would be to talk about abuse suffered in a religious context, and not about the religion per se.
I'm afraid that in any religion abuse occurs, and certainly also among those who consider themselves not religious, so I'd wish it not to be a thread on religion as such.

The line between the two will obviously be thin. The two will be 'enmeshed', is I think the appropriate term considering this issue.

Thanks for considering, and leaving the issue open for at least the possibility of such a thread, if a wish/need of it will surface. 

(this reply was copied from the thread I first mentioned starting such a thread)

[KayFly]

I'm all for it. I have been traumatized by the use of religious affiliation by my FOO as well, and while Religion is a touchy subject, and can be personally triggering for me, I would find it helpful to be able to talk about these things.

I just think that maybe if we were talking about religion in a sense of how it like destroyed us, there should be a thread for that.

But also if Religion has been something that has empowered us or helped us in a any sense, there should be a separate thread for that...

So they are not mixed...and it doesn't cause fighting...and members know where to go, to share what..

If that makes sense.

This is a tricky one for sure. I feel fear just thinking about posting about it haha. But if it's something that hurt us, why can't we talk about it?

[Kizzie]

Thanks for making the distinction clear Dutch Uncle, that does help to clarify things. It may be an idea to have separate threads as Kayfly has suggested. That is:

1) Positive perceptions of religion - faith is helpful to members dealing with CPTSD; and,

2) Negative perceptions of religion - religious values/behaviour of perpetrator contribute(d) to the development of the member's CPTSD (abuse cloaked as religion wielded to shame, control, etc)

I am wondering if a third thread might be relevant for those of us who consider ourselves spiritual but not religious, or who have a personal philosophy such as humanism?   

[woodsgnome]

Many of my posts have touched on aspects of this, as much of my cptsd history involves humiliating, disgusting physical/sexual/emotional tyranny I experienced at "religious" "schools" I was hostage to for my entire youth, grades k-12. I put quote marks around religious and schools because they were only nice respectable cover words for the slime they perpetrated within their walls.

While I've included that story in some of what I've shared in this forum, I've tried to steer clear of beliefs, dogma, etc., all of that. It was never the point. I really don't care about that stuff. If all that dogma was important to them, it sure wasn't to me; my only concern during those years was my personal survival--a different "save me" mentality than they thought.   

The negative of what I endured is easy--no one, anywhere, at any time, in any culture, in any creed, should ever be subjected to that wretched experience. I'm sorry--it's hard for me to muster the strength and certainly find okay words (remember the swearing discussion?) to contain the anger that is sweeping over me right now but I'll try to get a grip.

Okay, stuff happened, and I'm left sifting through the still smoldering rubble of memory.            

There actually is a "positive" outcome, surprise, surprise. No thanks to them, though; but to my own spirit, despite their efforts to destroy it. So the "good" is that I had a front-row seat to hatred, bigotry, hypocrisy, and violence on all levels. Dogma? Love hurts, it's about all I came away with--they didn't teach that love hurt, but it's what I learned. The word, like so many, was just a cover that they felt good about, I guess ('cause there's certainly no logic to it).

Don't worry--I'll wind this rant down now. This just hits every raw emotion so hard.   

Dutch Uncle's point echoes the only value in such a thread--and that's to keep any discussions in the context of cptsd  and not collapse into religious arguments that go no where. There's a fine line sometimes...example: if I see a disconnect about "love" as I experienced it, I'm not denying anyone's religious tenet, but expressing my confused feelings at the disconnect between what was taught and what was practiced. Danged  if I could tell what they meant by their words; they didn't match the actions. Does that make sense?

Because of the role it plays in society, religious references can creep into posts, if the writer has symptoms or EF's that stem from it, whether there's a specific category on the board for it or not. If it was a prime cause of your cptsd problems, for sure it will pop up.

I've never named the religion involved in anything I've written about, only the what/why/how I was so damaged by it. I tried to stick with how it directly hurt me, but not by pouncing on or rejecting tenets of any religion per se. Just the word religion is a strong trigger for me; but so is school...I can't help that, but that's not like saying a religion or belief system is invalid. What I said above bears repeating: I don't care about the outer, it's the inner "me" I'm dealing with.

I do have opinions, but who cares...when I come to this site, it's to find out how cptsd affects people, what I can learn from others about it, and hopefully be able to contribute where I can. This is just about bruised people trying to make their way up from the swamp. There's a zillion internet sites for religious rants, OOTS isn't one of them.

Thanks; hope I didn't offend, this topic comes dangerously close to a lot of my deepest scars.

[woodsgnome]

Okay--so I got totally carried away by that last post; maybe I'll pull it, but I'll let it sit there for now, and concur with what Kizzie wrote about the 3-thread approach; that sounds cool.

I've been helped a lot in my cptsd recovery by approaches like  humanism, nondual spirituality, that sort of thing.

So if I leave my rant up, well it does reflect the level of agitation than can happen when religion goes bad, I guess.

Otherwise, yeah, there's lots of values that I'm sure many here have found in all these various philosophies. It might be valuable to know about them and, more importantly, how they've helped people come to grips with their cptsd journey.

[arpy1]

woodsgnome, you always try to be honest and even-handed even when you are having a rant. and what's wrong with the occasional rant, i add. i really appreciate what you wrote here. you are genuinely one of the 'good guys'. thank you.

[KayFly]

I like that idea Kizzie.

I consider myself spiritual, but have had bad experiences with religion, but have had good experiences with religion. Haha so I feel like I would apply to all of those three threads.

[Kizzie]

Rant away Woodsgnome, I think there is cause. Whether or not members subscribe to a certain faith or not, I think the majority of us would agree that any position of authority is subject to abuse and that we each can distinguish between when something is healthy and when it is not, and that this distinction isn't restricted to religion.

For example, motherhood is cult-like for me in that I was raised to believe that I was "bad" if I thought/felt/acted like my M was anything other than a good mother. And society supported her.  It took decades for me to even let the thought into consciousness that she had held my spirit captive essentially, abused and controlled me with this belief that used to make me weep on Mother's Day as I stood in the card aisle. She was not a good mother. That simple sentence threatened my sense of self more than anything else I have ever feared.

It isn't motherhood per se that I am critical of, rather it's how my mother used her "good mother" status to abuse me while other mothers do nurture, love and protect their children. Similarly, there are religious leaders who misuse their image of "goodness" and omnipotence to control and manipulate, while others do not.  My view on the "cult of motherhood" is bound to make some people uncomfortable (and it has), but it's a valuable conversation to have imo.  We don't all grow up with Hallmark mothers and it's important to acknowledge that as individuals and as a society. The same is true for religion - some have positive experiences while others do not.

FWIW, I think as long as we're all clear about this kind of distinction we could have a rational, considerate discussion.

[mourningdove]

I think your experience of the cult of motherhood is a great example of how potentially divisive aspects of ones personal history can be talked about, Kizzie.

(By the way, I have always had the same experience in the card isle. ) 

I think we can show toleration for people's various beliefs while also being true to ourselves and what we have survived.

I was forced to go to church and religious schools from age 7 to 14 and much of what I experienced was traumatizing.

Great post, woodsgnome. Please don't erase. 

[KayFly]

I like what you said too Woodsgnome. I think its important that you get that message across for sure.

[stillhere]

I want to echo (without much fanfare) what's been said today (while I as off line). 

And I'd add that the care and sensitivity with which everyone has addressed this question is truly remarkable. 

Experience described here make clear that religion has been a source of control and oppression for some people, though of course not for everyone.  To deny that reality is as dismissive of the experience as the glorification of family would seem to a great many of us.  Yet we manage to talk about experience in families without trashing all family connections or individual families.  Surely the same principles can be applied to religion.

[MaryAnn]

I am all for it as well and like the idea of the 3 different threads.  For many us the abuses from religion whether at church, school, or as a result of how the beliefs were twisted by our parents to do whatever they wanted, to control or oppress is real to our experiences and are significant to the development of our CPTSD.  It isn't about religion, per se as Dutch Uncle stated, it is about how the abuse of any religion is a trigger for us and effects.

MaryAnn

[Dutch Uncle]

To deny that reality is as dismissive of the experience as the glorification of family would seem to a great many of us.  Yet we manage to talk about experience in families without trashing all family connections or individual families.  Surely the same principles can be applied to religion.

Well said. 

[Kizzie]

Hi Everyone - Great discussion

We are going to leave this thread open until Sunday just in case there are others who want to add something, and then we'll go from there.

It sounds like we will go ahead so if you have any thoughts on where you'd like to see these new threads please let us know.