Scripture messing up my mind (by proxy)

[Dutch Uncle]

Scared as I am, I'm going to 'inaugurate' this forum anyway.

I do struggle with Religious Abuse.

For one I struggle with two things. I've mentioned it elsewhere, and I'm relieved I don't have to put **possible trigger** on the subject in this safe haven.

• sometimes have the scary feeling my mom wants to see me nailed to The Cross, so she can be revered as Mother Mary. Grieving of course, but yet being the one who brought 'Goodness' into the world. She should be revered, if only I were to fulfill my role, for which lack of effort she resents me.
• sometimes I think my father doesn't mind me hanging on The Cross either. Being the Father and all, or being Abraham having to answer God's Call. Sacrificing your Son is a good thing. The Ultimate Goodness even.

re 1): I've had to make quite some difficult calls in my life. As we all do I suppose.
One thing regarding my fear of my mother not minding me seeing nailed to the cross is this:
I had an assignment (I was working free lance) in a major engineering/construction project. I was subcontracted (as a team-leader) by a sub-contractor. We had the usual risk-assesment meetings, the regular 'tool-box' meetings etc. All looked fine, things had been assessed by the appropriate levels of management.
That was the paperwork.
The practice was different. No big deal. This is how things are. It's part of the feedback-loop.
Until the loophole for the feedback gets clogged. Deliberately or not.
Long story short: At some point into the job I find myself traveling home, realizing I cannot any longer take responsibility for my team (despite various efforts to address the safety issues as prescribed by the main contractor) and realizing "If I cannot take responsibility for the safety of my team, I also cannot take 'responsibility' for my own safety", to which the logical response was: "Get out of there!", which I did, at that very moment. (I called my immediate chef I would only return the next day to pick up my stuff, and called my 'second-in-command' I was resigning, and why.)

When I told my mom, a few days later, instead of getting a 'reward' for protecting (first and foremost) myself, but (secondly) my team as well (since I had informed #2. I could have made an excuse or not have bothered at all), her reaction was "You should report this to the Higher Authorities" and actually made it quite a big deal I was hesitant to do this. *? Whistleblowers usually end up at the very bottom of things...
She has made it clear to me, even many weeks and moths after the fact, that I didn't do "the right thing"at the moment.
AARGGHHHHH!
I just saved my own life mom! Or at the very least my long-term health! (exposure to chemical toxins was involved in this case)
(she's a cancer survivor for crying out loud! But that's probably just an EF resurfacing)

re 2) Dad is a vey religious man. A scriptural man. Well in his 80's now, he embarked on a journey (could be as much as a decade now) to learn Hebrew and read the texts in it's original form.
Well, kudos to that, definitely, by any standard.
So his main focus is to read books of the Torah. (he has had a particularly interest in Jews and Jewishness for as long as I can remember, but it isn't tied to the persecution of Jews in Holland, which he possibly witness/realized during WW II, I have asked. Puzzling though, this almost obsession.)
At some point he had translated himself the Book in which Abraham is ordered to offer Isaac (for the muslims among us: Ismael. Different boy, same story AFAIK. At the very least I know (since I have witnessed this in person multiple times) muslims have a religious holiday observing the deliverance of Abraham's son through the providence of the Sacrificial Lamb (a Ram in fact, another Male), and I'm pretty sure they don't honor Isaac, son of Sarah, but Ismael, son of Hagar). He studies Hebrew with/through a guy who is a student of ancient languages and/or theology (I don't know the exact details) in the city he lives in.

Long story short (and possibly affected by my own bias towards it), what dad basically said/discovered was that Abraham thought "this is madness", and came down the mountain with his own version of events, that was very different from the contemporary culture in which Abraham lived, polytheism.

Good grief, this is really complicated, especially to make a point in all this.
The story with my dad and his scripture studies is very recent. Mere years. But what I wonder is: * is he only starting to 'doubt' the whole event regarding sacrificing your son only now? *, dad? How could you even think for 80 years it could have actually been good, in any way, if Abraham (or God for that matter) had not have the epiphany (pun intended) of saying: "Bullocks, let's scrap this sacrifice", and would have slain his son as so  many had done before him (apparently)? How is it possible my dad is, at 80+, still is preoccupied how this story came to be anyway?

And then, pertaining to me personally: for how long has my dad thought: "Nah, never mind his (=me) his suffering. It's all OK in the eyes of J-H-W-H, somehow..."

I feel like I am rambling, bordering on the insane.
But it actually matters to me.

From what perspective are my parents actually viewing me?
From their own?
From Gods Throne?
Or from my own? (That one I can confidently scrap, they don't take that perspective, they really are not interested in that one.)

Which of the other two then?
I fear (as in: god-fearing, pious) they take, and have taken, Gods Throne as their perspective, instead of their own, as parents.

What's the point of all this?
I don't even know myself exactly.

If not for the fact I will not let me be nailed to the cross to die an agonizing death, or be butchered/cut up, for any greater good, any god or anything else.
If anything, I've 'come' here to live, not to die. The latter is 'given', any which way I turn it.
My life will not be measured by the way I die, but by the way I live. And anyone who thinks that anybody will benefit by cutting it short, diminishing the quality of it, adding suffering to it for the 'sake' of it: Buzz off!

[arpy1]

kudos for taking the plunge, D/U,      i tried earlier on, and deleted it becos it was harder than i thought. i am now writing a 'cult years memory' thing the same way i did the 'early years memory' thing and i will post from it as things arise. no one would want to hear the whole story, it's probably gonna run to volumes!

altho i was brought up an atheist/agnostic and got converted to christianity at 16, i have known many youngsters in the cult who would definitely relate to what you write. so i would like to understand what it is for you that causes such obvious anguish.

what is the most painful bit about the religiosity of your parents? did they both start out in the xian tradition and then your mum get into the new-agey stuff later? so, was the painful stuff rooted in the feeling that they both, in their different ways, sacrificed you on the altar of their spirituality, as it were? that you came second, possibly a poor second to their particular brand of God? or that you had to match up to some model of spirituality in order to feed their own egos or meet their need to feel spiritual in some way?

i might be getting the complete wrong end of the stick here, please tell me if so?

[Dutch Uncle]

Thanks for asking. I'll need some time to ponder them.

I can tell you this right now though:

did they both start out in the xian tradition and then your mum get into the new-agey stuff later?

Both my parents were raised in a Christian tradition, and both Protestant. I don't know about the particular distinction between the two 'ministries'/'denominations' they grew up in.
There is a saying/proverb in the Netherlands : "With two faithfull you'll have a Church, with three there'll be a rift." I tend to think the difference between their denominations is in that realm. 

I know (but this knowledge came late, the last decade or so) that my mom had to change Church, or Creed , or whatever, in order to marry my dad. Mom didn't mind, in her words (as best I can reproduce from memory) she told herself (and her parents): God will not mind the Church I attend, as long as I attend to Him.
The 'new age' stuff came later, but I'll bet a dear thing that her first 'conversion' has made it 'easier' to become an 'apostate' once again (to use clerical terms). The 'stepping stone' theory, but than not related to drugs, but religion, one might say.

Dad could stick to his own Church/Creed/Denomination. I know, from my mothers mouth, that dad's mother was quite appalled at him marrying a girl from another denomination. I don't know if this was direct communication, or that dad told my mom.

I'll be back with answers (if they emerge  ) on the other questions you have asked. 

[woodsgnome]

Dutch Uncle wrote:

"From what perspective are my parents actually viewing me?
From their own?
From Gods Throne?"

From their own, but they probably don't think so. The G-figure provides them a great cover concerning what's "wrong" with you, in their eyes. You didn't mention the d-figure, the evil fellow...if they could blame you on him maybe they wouldn't need to worry about the g's part in any of it. Except that would negate the sacrifice, perhaps? But it might irritate the * (pun intended) out of g-man; he'd get mad again and this time he'd be out to get them, as he'd hold them accountable for messing up your sacrifice. I'm inventing the theology here to reflect my own bias that there's not always much logic in what's called theo-"logical".  I spent 12 years of pseudo-schooling around those biblical types, so just passing on what I "learned".

Then again, isn't that how humans got the short end? g was mad as usual, so he sent the d guy to rub it in? Uh-oh; so maybe my humour isn't sharp right now, but it sums up my reaction to how people use this stuff to suit their people games. Wouldn't it be neat if they just took it as stories--some good, some bad, some real yawners? Not to mention the blood and gore to keep everyone turning the page. Hmmm, as a victim of many vicious assaults from g's messengers at my holy schools, now I think I know which parts they liked. 

I don't know, this whole biblical stuff reminds me of something Alan Watts said: "Just as money is not real, consumable wealth, books are not life. To idolize scriptures is like eating paper currency."  Uh-oh; just heard a thunder-clap. Gotta run. 

[Dutch Uncle]

"Just as money is not real, consumable wealth, books are not life. To idolize scriptures is like eating paper currency."  Uh-oh; just heard a thunder-clap. Gotta run.

Love the quote, laughed at the joke. 

Dutch Uncle wrote:

"From what perspective are my parents actually viewing me?
From their own?
From Gods Throne?"

From their own, but they probably don't think so.

I agree. Alas, what they think is the 'truth' I have to deal with as far as their relationship with me is concerned.

As far as the devil is concerned: already at a young age, a kid still, it was clear to me he had been beaten, and I didn't have to worry about him. The Church we attended (I went to sunday-school, every week, until I was 11, then to Church until I was 16) wasn't a *-and-damnation Church, which was good. I did take it a bit further than 'them' though. Going to * definitely was not an option anymore after the 40 days in the desert.
Easter still is a holiday that reminds me there is nothing to Fear anymore. It's the only holiday I actually care for, albeit in my own private way.
Yet it also reminds me that the sacrifice needed is a bit over the top, and I'd like to take a more gentle approach in such matters.
And I love eggs, that helps. 

[arpy1]

i love you guys!

"With two faithfull you'll have a Church, with three there'll be a rift."

there's not always much logic in what's called theo-"logical". 

yup.

To idolize scriptures is like eating paper currency

oh yeah.

i look forward to your expanding a bit, D/U on what you have talked about here about what it is that causes this pain.

it seems to me that humans will use anything, anything at all, the good, the bad, the ugly, to get power over others. they will use anything to bolster up their interior,secret sense of fear and lack - even destroy the people they love. it is innate in us. it is the single thing that makes me hate religion, politics, consumerism, all those things that may have roots in humanity, but are taken through sublime to totally bloody ridiculous by humans in their efforts to get control of each other.  Rant over. i think if god is real (i still think he is real but, as  Dr mcCoy so famously said, 'not as we know it, Jim.') he bears very little relation to the gods  we create in our own image.  rant really over.

isn't it interesting how strong our emotions can get on these subjects? right at this minute, i have the urge to scream and shout and wave my arms about - what happened to me was WRONG WRONG WRONG!!!!!!

a signal we should pay attention to of the depth of the damage inflicted? no wonder it's such a tricky subject.

[Dutch Uncle]

what is the most painful bit about the religiosity of your parents?
1 - was the painful stuff rooted in the feeling that they both, in their different ways, sacrificed you on the altar of their spirituality, as it were?
2 - that you came second, possibly a poor second to their particular brand of God?
3 - or that you had to match up to some model of spirituality in order to feed their own egos or meet their need to feel spiritual in some way?

(If I'm terribly off in my paraphrasing, please let me know)

I'd say that primarily the pain lays with 'being a poor second' to their particular brand of 'cosmic/universal attunement'. I phrase it as such, to get God and/or Religion out of the way, since I think the connotations (I have) to those two concepts only obfuscates my experience.
So, 2) is the prime source.

As far as 3) is concerned (and it is part of the whole), this is true for my mom, but not my dad.
- My dad is far more capable in seeing the 'Human' in me and my 'Humanistics' (and actually voiced it in terms like that) while at the same time sticking to the 'Jewish roots' (for lack of a better word, he's not a Jew, though his Christianity most definitely is rooted in it.) that I respect in turn. I once had him practically crying on the phone when we would meet on a sunday, and I asked him if the time we were about to agree on wouldn't interfere with his church-attendance: "I feel so seen, son" were his words (paraphrased). (I don't know which event preceded the other, to be honest, it also doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.)
- My mom definitely has her plan for me, which is a devine plan delivered through her (or at the very least she is a tool for the Revelation of it) but that is more prominent in her New Age adaptation, than her Christianity (which she has discarded almost wholesale, safe for attending X-mas services and possibly another few tidbits). I will get to that at some point, though it will be in another thread (probably).
Her (new age) belief that 'we' choose our parents before incarnating is pivotal in it, at least that is how (not -)understand it.

Then the 'sacrifice', 1).
This is where things really get mixed up. Enmeshed. Messed up. In my mind.
Does my dad really want to sacrifice me? No, just as Abraham didn't want to sacrifice his son, and was relieved that God, the Monotheist, revealed himself to him on that mountain, and Abraham grabbed the opportunity with both hands.
And then told the world of this miracle when he had descended, for all to join him in practical terms to do away with the old traditions. No more first-born slaying, thank God, Hallelujah, and rightfully so!
(why god couldn't have told him that before Abraham even went up the mountain and tied Isaac/Ismael up (now that must have been a PTSD triggering event for the boy :eek: ) will forever be a mystery for me...)
But I do think that my dad has always kept the option open that yes, if god would not intervene, would not extend his grace to him as he had done to Abraham, he (dad) would have been unsure if he would have followed his love for his son, or if he would have followed his love for his god.
I think my father is essentially relieved god hasn't appeared in a dream to ask him what He has asked of Abraham. But he still is in permanent 'limbo' about what to do, "if".

Does my mom really want to sacrifice me? The narrative here is different. Mary was never asked coerced to nail her son to the cross herself. That's quite a departure from the perspective of Abraham, or even God himself who personally set the wheels in motion for his Son (or himself, if you accept the concept of the Trinity) to die.
As far as I know, Mary is quite a bystander in the whole Saga. She gives Birth to Jesus, and basically only shows up again to take him of the cross, bury him, and then witness his resurrection. She not really an 'agent' in the whole story.
I dare say, and this is from the perspective of my mom sacrificing me, she sacrifices her son through neglect. She knows from the moment her baby is conceived, that he will bring relief for the world, for humanity, through great suffering and sacrifice of/by/on himself. And she lets him, resigns in the fate the He himself brought it with Him when entering her womb.

There, I've said it, reached a conclusion I didn't even realize when I started typing this.
There is the connection between my mother's karmic New Age babble and her christianity.
My own Karmic energy I brought into this world, and it's her 'task' to let me destroy myself. If I choose so.
Well, I don't. And she IS a bit disappointed in that.
All her neglect, her laissez-faire attitude 'for the greater-good', amounting to nothing.
Well, amounting to NC at some point probably!

Bleh, I feel a bit sick. Her sickness! Bleh, again.

[arpy1]

thanks for elaborating D/U, i respect that you are going into this as deeply as you are and i really hope it will help you find some kind of resolution. 

tell me if this makes sense?  it sounds to me like your dad (did you say somewhere he's on the autism/asperger's spectrum, or did i imagine that?) sounds to me like he has always had a huge conflict in his head about whether he could love God more than you and suffers huge guilt becos he suspects he can't? and thinks that God thinks he should come first even at your expense?   so that your dad has spent your entire life trying to not love you as much as God? i can imagine how that must have made you feel, if so. how can you compete with that? if you can manage to make your dad love you best, it's wrong, so he has to reject you.   but if he loves god more than you, you are rejected anyway. recipe for madness right there, imho. - for both of you. how confused you must have felt.

did you say your mum is npd? has she spent your life using you as her 'narcissistic supply' i think that's what it's called? using you to supply her need for inflation and grandiosity to counteract her secret lack? ( i am just remembering concepts i learnt in that Dan Shaw article)

and the bit about you having chosen her to be your mum before you 'incarnated'... i'm sorry if this is offensive in any way, but have you ever thought of suggesting that had you been given a choice at the time, you would have rather poked out your eyes with a stick than choose her???

[arpy1]

I cannot believe i just wrote that. It was SO rude! i am sorry, D/U forgive me. 

[Dutch Uncle]

It's OK, LOL even.

[Dutch Uncle]

(did you say somewhere he's on the autism/asperger's spectrum, or did i imagine that?)

I'm pretty convinced he is Asperger's. And for what it's worth, that has contributed more to my (undiagnosed)cPTSD than his religious beliefs. Although it's hard to separate the two, I guess.
But it's his different emotional processing that has thrown me more afoot than anything else.

sounds to me like he has always had a huge conflict in his head about whether he could love God more than you and suffers huge guilt becos he suspects he can't? and thinks that God thinks he should come first even at your expense?   so that your dad has spent your entire life trying to not love you as much as God? i can imagine how that must have made you feel, if so. how can you compete with that? if you can manage to make your dad love you best, it's wrong, so he has to reject you.   but if he loves god more than you, you are rejected anyway. recipe for madness right there, imho. - for both of you. how confused you must have felt.

I think my dad is deeply confused himself about his faith. At some point he gave us (his children) an autobiographical/theological(?) book written by a vicar titled "Believing in a God that doesn't exist". The vicar was scorned by his congregation (no surprise there  ) but he still upheld he believed.
Never read a word of the book. Threw it out after some years.
I'm confused enough as it is  .

did you say your mum is npd? has she spent your life using you as her 'narcissistic supply' i think that's what it's called? using you to supply her need for inflation and grandiosity to counteract her secret lack? ( i am just remembering concepts i learnt in that Dan Shaw article)

HPD (theatrical PD) I think. The Narcissist 'template' never seemed to fit mom. Only by having taken the SCID-II myself I even learned about Histrionic PD, and BINGO.
Key-trait in this respect: A Narcissist wants to be the centre of admiration/obedience, the Histrionic wants to be the centre of Drama. It doesn't matter of she's the victim of it, as long as she (or he) is at the centre.
So, to tie this in with her being Mary: Excellent, she's the grieving mother. Could all the condolences be turned up a bit more please? Yes, a bit more still... Ah yeah, thanks, perfect.

and the bit about you having chosen her to be your mum before you 'incarnated'... i'm sorry if this is offensive in any way, but have you ever thought of suggesting that had you been given a choice at the time, you would have rather poked out your eyes with a stick than choose her???

One part of my healing has been, when I at some point told myself: "If I did choose her, it was because of the false advertisement! What was painted on the box, was not what was inside of it!" 

I may have, if she ever brings it up again to reel me in, tell her: "yes mom I did, because I had to learn mothers are not beyond reprieve, and can be cast out of my life like any other abusive person."
But I hope I'll have a less harsh rebuttal for her, that does honor to my conviction we only live once, and reincarnation is a folly.

Thanks for your reply!
Working through this all, DOES help.

[stillhere]

I had no intention of contributing to threads about religion/spirituality.  This source of abuse is not my story, or at least I don't think it is (I have a brother who might disagree).

But I am struck now by the content of some of these biblical stories.  The founding narrative of the Hebrew Bible, in particular, is the story of a dysfunctional family, yes?  Or at least the story contains some grim elements:  near sacrifice of children by parents (if ever there were a cause of PTSD!), sibling rivalry and betrayal, abuse of power within a household, . . .

Somehow, these stories have not only survived but served to establish world religions.   

Not a profound or novel observation, I know, but one I can't ignore as I read.

[Dutch Uncle]

Let's just say that if the Child Protection Agency and the NAACP (National Association for the Advancement of Circumcised People) had existed back then, history would have taken a different turn. 

[Dutch Uncle]

Forgiveness.
I know there are other threads on this (to which I also have contributed), but today I realized I need to elaborate on it, and this place is the better of the two. IMHO.

I've been exploring the concept (for lack of a better term) of self-forgiveness. Something quite alien to me, and exploring it has been inspired by reading this article: http://www.traumahealed.com/articles/allow-self-forgiveness.html

So I have started self-forgiveness (bite size) and, inevitably I guess, I wandered now back to: "What the heck is forgiveness anyway?"
And in exploring that I realized this:

I only know "forgiveness" from scripture. I was raised a Calvinist Protestant, attended sunday-school/church weekly until I was 16, there was prayer before and bible-reading (and prayer again) after every meal (which at some point (pre-teen) switched to other religious books, more interpretive in nature. Way over my head. I suppose the rather simple and straightforward nature of many biblical texts are easier to stomach for a child than theological treatises.) So I have had my fair share of textual education regarding forgiveness. If I recall correctly, forgiveness is primarily a New Testamental thing than an Old Testamental concept, and thus a quite unique Christian take on Abrahamic religion. But I digress.

Then, today, it dawned on me, and this was quite a horrific thought/realization:
I have never been taught forgiveness in practice! 

I dare say that my FOO consists of some of the most unforgiving people I know. I still get rebuked for misgivings they have over things that happened 20 or 30 years ago. Like running late! RUNNING LATE, for crying out loud!
If I would have bashed somebody's brain in, I could perhaps relate (well, most probably I could), but really: running late?
(Granted, it was a funeral, so naturally they were upset, but I got there! and walked behind the coffin, 'just' missed the speeches. It wasn't even my fault.)
Good Grief, I'm still JADE-ing, I notice.

No wonder I find it difficult to forgive myself, I have not been forgiven myself, I have never seen somebody in my FOO forgive anybody else... I'm only stuck with this biblical notion that "turning the other cheek" is somehow the pinnacle of forgiveness, anything less is a "nah, not really there yet" sort of message I got.
I hardly know what forgiveness is.
Time to educate myself.
With me as my own guinea-pig.

As a relief I must add: I do have quite a few people around me who do know how to forgive. I suppose. They don't hold grudges against me, and I'm certain that's a clue they have forgiven my for passed transgressions.
But that's just what I say, that forgiveness must be tied in somewhere along the line there. Perhaps it's just not putting "blame" on somebody. So there's nothing to forgive in the first place.

[woodsgnome]

Dutch Uncle said:

"I hardly know what forgiveness is. Time to educate myself.
With me as my own guinea-pig."

My thought is to not focus on something you have no control over. The past is a distant land.

Forgiveness is taught as a doing, but maybe it's just a state of accepting what was, and what is--now.  Perhaps we need to un-learn the popular beliefs to reach any state of forgiveness, if we still want to call it that. But if it's based on religion, I concur with the idea that maybe religions should have expiration dates on them, to avoid staleness. Every time the frowns go on and the powerful voices start their chant of "the bible says" I want to get out of the way. I couldn't do that as a kid, but I sure can now.

Today's forgiveness theologians aren't necessarily religious. The psych crowd has joined the chorus--they say they're science-based, but reach the same conclusions: "you must forgive". The other day I heard a psych prof on a call-in radio show who preached that gospel to caller after caller whose every "can't forgive" plea was met with an "oh just see where your abusers were coming from" . He was so sure of himself; after all, he is a doctor, he knows these things, right?

An important part of un-learning involves time...usually the hurt happened a while back. It may have been totally disgusting, but they're all past tense happenings. And we're only living now. I usually hate the context of "just let it go", maybe "just let it be" is more apt. It's no easier but makes more sense.

The abuse it's said we have to forgive happened, we got the short end then, but survived. While we probably can't totally forget and certainly can't change what happened, we also shouldn't feel compelled to play this forgiveness game. Dwelling on ways to forgive is like giving the abusers a double advantage—what they did then plus the noxious idea that they can still affect us via this "you must forgive" mantra.

The psych prof I heard said to remember, "they were only human". Wow--how profound can it get? I...don't...care, prof! They hurt me, it wasn't okay, whether they're human or alien or some other category.

Even self-forgiveness seems kind of odd. What's there to forgive? That you got in their way? If using the forgiveness word makes some feel comfortable, that's great; I've tried and can't do it, resent it being talked up as if it's an absolute  cure instead of referencing something now in the rear-view mirror. 

For me, it all circles back to what you said, Dutch Uncle: "So there's nothing to forgive in the first place."