What is the self? - philosophical discussion

[I like vanilla]

I am not sure if it is OK to make this type of posting, nor, if so, if I am in the correct thread - mods please feel free to delete or move.

I am starting this thread because in a number of discussions (especially on the 'symptoms' threads) people write about finding/losing one's self, 'not knowing who I am', 'discovering who I am', 'having a weak/strong sense of self', etc. All centre on the idea of Self, and what that means.

I am also starting this thread because I have lately been thinking (and getting angry) about how much of my 'Self' has been 'stolen' from me by my NM, FOO, and others who have preyed upon my vulnerability since.

Books on PTSD (my library has these, but not on CPTSD) often talk about 'getting back to your previous self' (before the accident, crime, natural disaster, etc. that caused the PTSD). I am discovering that this is one of the differences between PTSD and CPTSD, at least for those of us who have CPTSD from growing up in abusive homes, for me, there is no 'previous self'. Before the trauma started I was, at best, an infant but more likely in utero. It is impossible for me to go back to a 'previous self'. I think I am more on a quest to discover the person 'I would have been' or, perhaps more accurately (and appropriately?) 'the person I would like to be now'. I suppose that is another reason for this thread; I am well into adulthood and am only just, finally, beginning to figure out who I am.

So, I am posting this thread because I am curious about how people view one's (or their) 'self'. How do we lose self? How do we find it? Can we find a 'self' that had not developed before the abuse started? - is it inherent and still there, or do we need to find/create something entirely new? (or some combination of these, or something entirely different?)...

There really are no 'right' or 'wrong' answers; I think even the 'experts' debate the topic. Nor is there any obligation to answer all of the questions I posted above. Plus, tangents are welcome - it is likely I missed asking about important aspects of 'self'.

This thread is more for exploring ideas of 'selfhood' and/or how 'selfhood' interacts with CPTSD.


OK, I admit it, I also posted the thread because I enjoy a philosophical discussion but none of my 'philosophical discussion' friends really 'get' the whole CPTSD thing - though they are still sympathetic and supportive of me.

[Dutch Uncle]

I think the self is constantly evolving.
What exactly the self is, I don't know, but I'd just like to say to you that if you don't have a 'self' to go back to, no worries. To a large degree I'm not the same self as I used to be. Not the child, not the adolescent, not the adult of 15 years past... And to the same large degree I don't even want to be that old self, even when I do have fond memories of that old self. Things I liked or loathed then, I don't like or loath now.

edit: typo.

[woodsgnome]

I have a very philosophical bent, so this sort of topic is one I'm almost always contemplating. I often refer to the personality as "I" or "me"; I find any consistent self to be very elusive, so I use quotation marks around it. As DU pointed out, "I" am not the same person as "I" was then, and so on.

I recently posted on another thread some of my thoughts on this, so if someone read that, it explains why what I'm going to cover here may sound familiar.

What I'm speculating is based on exhaustive reading about what this strange entity called the self might indeed be.  One suggestion I like is that we each consist of a Self (capital S) and a self (small s). The Self is the steady observer that seems to be always present, that makes it seem like we are a unified being. The self is more like the personality, which can fluctuate; whereas the Self sticks around--Emerson called it the Oversoul.

The small-s self can consist of many sub-personalities, something a fellow named Pierro Ferruci described in a wonderful book called "What We May Be". So each person is kind of their own universe, characterized by a variety of traits at different times in their life.

Based on that, my personal philosophy runs something like this (and might change in 15 minutes!):

While I don't know how it came to be, I consider "myself"  to be an individualized expression of a universal essence (call it god if you must; personally I can't stand the word). "I" use a personality to craft what is called a life. Within this life the personal entity called "me" senses a very elusive peace in this trek called life. That search for passionate equanimity keeps me going.

While the purpose of the journey is elusive, each of us has an inner 'memory' or knowledge suggestive of a Source (the Self). Often this is hidden, too, as if a cloud arose to obscure the details.

The cloud, in turn, is part of the theatrical stage we call Earth. So in effect, we're acting as if in a play wherein we each script, edit, direct, and perform our 'selves' in the play. The production is limited on the one hand by the set design (science) but via its memory is aware of an infinity (Self).

Some choose to codify this experience via what's called religion, with rigid rules that often stagnate over time (religions should come with "use-by"/expiration dates!). Others prefer a more materialist sense of reality. Sometimes the religious or spiritual component is taken to be the 'greater' of this duality, but to do so would negate the mixing of the spiritual/material. So some set themselves apart (holier than thou); others would bah/humbug their way through the play.

That many do so, in either form, is still always a creative act deriving from personalities which remain somewhat fluid... learning appears and reappears, casting change as the only eternal constant within an infinite field of possibilities.

Truly the play has no beginning and no end, but lots of potential--the hallmark of the best spontaneous acting (the personality) one could hope for.

The only goal of life is to create more life, which indeed points beyond words to more mystery. Mind seeks answers, and frustrates itself; the whole thing is best navigated from a goal-less state of mind, but the mind resists, and the tug-of-war goes on.

Where does this fit in with cptsd? No answers, but for me it takes some guilt out of the picture. I don't know, don't care to know, why this life was so rotten, and in many aspects still is. Consciously I would have never chosen the path of grief, pain, anxiety, and depression considered "my" life. We are all in the drama, but no one has seen the script. 

If you've read this far, I hope you take what I say in a spirit of playing with options; not as the woodsgnome's take on truth, if there is such a thing. If it's heavy on acting/theatrical references, that might be because I'm directing a dinner-theatre tomorrow night. And in my inner play, that's a huge leap, being around other people. I'll be exhausted, and my sub-personalities will probably be zonked  .

Thanks, I Like Vanilla, for posting this; and you're right, it's very hard to broach this subject...we're just different drummers in more ways than one, it seems. 





 

[arpy1]

wow. wsg, i wish you'd write a book. i love reading what you write, it resonates every time. you seem to be able to put things how i wish i could.  thank you for you inputs. honestly.

self and Self. i think i like this best of all. i have no real sense of self, tho i have hope that i am starting to learn one, grow one, whatever it is you do.  like you, Ilv, i never really had a chance to develop one, and what there was of me by the time i hit 18 was systematically destroyed in the JP and then in my marriage.  so here i am at 58 wondering who the f 'I' am, becos there's nothing much to go 'back to'.

but i know, in my deepest spirit, my Self exists. i remember becoming 'aware' (i am pretty sure this was before i was born, when i was in the womb.) - just awareness. no thought, no sensation. just a sort of eternal awareness that 'i am' and that i am with 'I AM' - what wsg calls the universal essence, i don't know, my belief/faith/understanding is totally f'''''ed these days, but i could never deny the whatever it is/something, 'I-AM-within-i-am' bit inside me. that, for me is the Self. the bit that is forever. whatever that means...

this is a fantastic thread. thanks for being brave and starting it.  i am looking forward to learning what people think. 

[woodsgnome]

So I've just a short  addendum to my long-winded tangent.

I suppose some might object that a life isn't an "act". No, it doesn't feel that way...or does it? I love Shakespeare's line "all the world's a stage" for starters. But there's daily language references like "get your act together", "role model", and similar sayings. And we all grab a costume; we're all skeletal or a "bag of bones", as Alan Watts used to be fond of saying.

One of my cptsd symptoms has been a sense of numbness; some of my "act" has made me wish I'd had a stand-in or stuntman to make it through the rough parts. Using the script metaphor, I wish I could tear it up or do a good edit. Maybe that's where dreams come in?

There. Done. Short.   

[Jdog]

This is truly a wonderful thread.  In regards to the various "selves", however one wishes to view them (oversoul watching other aspects, etc) I find those moments when I can sense a bit of air between whichever "self" I inhabit in the moment and the longer view (larger Self) absolutely fascinating.  It is not always pleasant, as there is quite a tendency for self judgement and a lack of patience which restricts growth.  Because, as was stated, we never get to view the script in its entirety and can't be sure which act we are in at any moment, we do tend to overstate the importance things that may be less elemental overall while under appreciating things that could bear real fruit I the long run. 

I recall having ongoing email dialogues with my t about not knowing who "I" am.  Her response was that I would find myself, and my healing does seem to be helping me integrate some parts that were without a home.  It is probably going to be a lifelong process.  I had an interesting experience just this week.  I had to be out of my classroom to attend a workshop one day this week, and it was most uncomfortable being away from my usual routine.  Once I returned to my students and to the setting which suits me, it was so very much like coming home again.  Except I don't think I ever had this feeling as a child.  The "home" I am creating with my teaching routines and ways of relating that I get to craft with the students is both a creative masterwork and an outer reflection real "me."  This stage, this act of the play- a very meaningful and lovely part of life that could only have happened as a result of so much pain and struggle over the past 4 years (and really over my entire 56 years).

We are always creating and discarding.  Everything is in a state of flux.  Not only is all the world a stage and we the actors, but we also form part of the stage itself.  That is the essence of groundedness, perhaps.

Ah- good coffee and morning hours in which to write. 

[woodsgnome]

One final thought (really?) 

Using the Self/self model referred to, I see the Self as healed--always was, is perfectly at peace with life. The self/selves, on the other hand, is what needs healing and is largely what the journey with cptsd involves.

Thanks. Do I like philosophy?  

[tired]

the self is the you that is looking at your mind and asking these questions.  it is something other than the sum total of all that has happened to you until now; other than the drama of your parents.  it is the you that developed in spite of the drama, parallel to it, but overpowered by it most of the time.  not all of the time.  the moments of peace you might feel, like if you have a brief encounter with true perfect peace, maybe while driving or sitting outside, that is the self.  maybe in a split second the mind reel starts playing and the drama takes over but you know your self is there. you don't have to know anything more really; just know it's there.

it's probably not possible to completely separate you from what happened to you.  you know there is a difference but you can't take it apart. it's like looking at a tangled mass of string and junk (i'm cleaning the basement so this is a real occurence right now) and knowing that it consists of discreet parts, some trash some not. some of it can be valuable if they can be untangled.  i don't know how long that's gonna take but it's possible.  basically the junk in the basement that's in a big pile on the floor looks like me, a combination of crap and my true self. 

i'm getting all this from Eckhart Tolle and five years of analysis.  that's five years of 4-5 days a week therapy that cost me a small fortune so i hope i got something accurate out of it.