How do you date if you're a straight man with CPTSD?

[usuario]

Every time I see a woman I'm attracted to, I get a flashback. My inner critic is telling me that I'm not good enough, that she would be disgusted if she found out that I liked her, and that I would make her uncomfortable and have to find a way to tactfully swat me away like a fly. That I'm unlikeable, fundamentally abnormal and unable to have a normal relationship with another person.

If I'm having a friendly conversation with her, I'll be thinking, "I'm going to be screwing this up soon". I don't dare treat her any different from any other woman or man because I'm terrified of the toxic shame that would result if I came off as creepy. If I don't mess up, then the next time I see her, I will get all nervous and in my head for fear of not being able to maintain the connection I had before. A self-fulfilling fear that my social anxiety, by creating moments where I'm awkwardly in my head second-guessing myself or beating myself up over a possible mistake, will scare her away, which comes with the dread of having toxic shame from messing up again.

I've let so many opportunities pass by, because I'm self-aware enough that I can't handle the pain not of the rejection itself, but from the endless storm of toxic shame that would come from it.

[Dutch Uncle]

Hi usuario 

Welcome to Out of the Storm.
Hmmm, dating... As a long time bachelor I can't say I have any good tips on offer. 
Though apart from the Inner Critic you mentioned, what might be in play here for you is the Outer Critic, as mentioned and discussed by Pete Walker (http://www.pete-walker.com/pdf/ShrinkingOuterCritic.pdf). Perhaps that article may resonate with you.

Since this is your first post, I'd like to share some recources we have on cPTSD at this board:
In the cPTSD Glossary you may find a lot that may resonate with your experiences. A few highlights to start your journey with:
On cPTSD
On Boundaries
One that has been of great value to me personally is: Learned Helplessness

And last but not least: Guidelines for All Members and Guests

Welcome again, I hope and wish this place and community will give you comfort and be of aid on your journey through cPTSD.


Dutch Uncle.

[Kizzie]

I've been with my H for almost four decades now so I am no expert on dating.  I do know though that one of our members used an online dating service and has developed a great relationship with someone.  It started out online, but has moved into face-to-face.

Is that something you would consider?  It might allow you to have more control and time and space to get to know someone before actually meeting in person.  That might help keep your ICr from getting too loud and bossy.  In CPTSD the ICr tends to get reactive when under stress as you probably know only too well, so if you can keep the stress to a manageable level it may not kick in as strongly. 

[steamy]

Hi Usuario,

Welcome to the group,

Every time I see a woman I'm attracted to, I get a flashback. My inner critic is telling me that I'm not good enough, that she would be disgusted if she found out that I liked her, and that I would make her uncomfortable and have to find a way to tactfully swat me away like a fly. That I'm unlikeable, fundamentally abnormal and unable to have a normal relationship with another person.

If I'm having a friendly conversation with her, I'll be thinking, "I'm going to be screwing this up soon".

That is a bit of a problem, I normally find just talking to people initially is my biggest hurdle. Although, as you say "whenever I see a woman" I am unsure if you are talking about somebody you just met randomly, or are going on dates or whether these are people you already know and want to know how to step up the relationship. Initially I thought that you were talking about random people in bars and on the street, but I realise that you are talking about dating people second time.  If you are on a date then she probably likes you somewhat, although rationalising that to the IC is hard.

I used to frequent bars and clubs all through my twenties hoping to meet people, I just wasted a whole lot of time and money, I could have had some great holidays to nice places instead. Nearly all the relationships I have had have been with women I have met when I have been backpacking, or people who know people who know me.

The truth is that you don't need to treat people differently, a lot of the messages that are sent between people who like each other are non verbal, if you intuit that she likes you then all you are 90% there. Usually women like men who listen so maybe you are just trying too hard, if she wants you she will do what it takes to get you. Just treat her like you would others and things tend to evolve. Why don't you tell them you dont date much and you are really nervous, your shy nervousness will come off as cute, unless you have never met and then it sounds a bit desperate.

I usually let the woman make all the moves, if you have to talk people into dating you it will kill your self esteem when things don't work out. If she makes the moves it means that she is committed. If she isn't making any moves or sending you signals then I would not see that as an "opportunity" and it might be my inner critic shouting, but I often sense that she is not talking to anybody because she dosen't want to and one should respect people's right to privacy and leave them alone. If I have convinced somebody to date me I would also feel very under pressure to have wasted their time as I would feel that they are there "for me" obviously if youre intuiting that she is really interested then its more mutual and you have started on an equal footing.

Apologies if I have misread your post in any way.

Best of luck

[Dutch Uncle]

Today I stumbled upon this article that, IMHO, addresses some of the questions raised here. It's not particularly tailored to dating and has a scope reaching beyond that, but I thought I'd share. Reading this I realized: "Yes Dutch Uncle, this may help you to date and love and perhaps even develop a healthy relationship with a romantic partner."
How to Crazy-Proof Yourself After Breaking Up with or Divorcing an Abusive Girlfriend or Wife

I think points 7 to 10 are of particular value for ( c-)PTSD related (post-)"conditioning".

Ladies: I guess this may work for you too.

[usuario]

Hi Usuario,

Welcome to the group,

...
The truth is that you don't need to treat people differently, a lot of the messages that are sent between people who like each other are non verbal, if you intuit that she likes you then all you are 90% there. Usually women like men who listen so maybe you are just trying too hard, if she wants you she will do what it takes to get you. Just treat her like you would others and things tend to evolve. Why don't you tell them you dont date much and you are really nervous, your shy nervousness will come off as cute, unless you have never met and then it sounds a bit desperate.

I usually let the woman make all the moves, if you have to talk people into dating you it will kill your self esteem when things don't work out. If she makes the moves it means that she is committed. If she isn't making any moves or sending you signals then I would not see that as an "opportunity" and it might be my inner critic shouting, but I often sense that she is not talking to anybody because she dosen't want to and one should respect people's right to privacy and leave them alone. If I have convinced somebody to date me I would also feel very under pressure to have wasted their time as I would feel that they are there "for me" obviously if youre intuiting that she is really interested then its more mutual and you have started on an equal footing.

Apologies if I have misread your post in any way.

Best of luck

Hey steamy,

Thanks for your answer.

I've been trying to convince myself that no, I am not ugly like my mom says. But I simply do not have the options that you have. Out of my 30 years, only one woman has sort of asked me out. Every other woman who may have liked me in real life never made the move and only hinted by being friendly. It's hard to tell for me whether a woman's flirting with me or not because the signs of flirting, including being touchy feely, smiling, and giving me strong eye contact, have met with rejection ("oh I have a boyfriend / I'm not looking for anyone right now") when I try to make an awkward move.

Thanks for your effort though.
Usuario

[usuario]

Today I stumbled upon this article that, IMHO, addresses some of the questions raised here. It's not particularly tailored to dating and has a scope reaching beyond that, but I thought I'd share. Reading this I realized: "Yes Dutch Uncle, this may help you to date and love and perhaps even develop a healthy relationship with a romantic partner."
How to Crazy-Proof Yourself After Breaking Up with or Divorcing an Abusive Girlfriend or Wife

I think points 7 to 10 are of particular value for ( c-)PTSD related (post-)"conditioning".

Ladies: I guess this may work for you too.

Thanks Dutch Uncle.

This article really resonates with me. I think I may be seeking a emotionally corrective experience. I'm shy, effeminate, and unsure of myself, and I am extremely attracted to women who are extroverted, charismatic, self-confident, assertive, and masculine-acting but with feminine features and dress. So much so that, yeah I can be like "wow" when I see a very good-looking woman, but when I see a woman of the particular personality-type I mentioned, I feel this different magnetic draw: an urgent feeling in my chest like I need her in my life.

I'm self-aware enough to look for angry, narcissistic traits in her behavior, and these qualities allow me to turn my attraction off. In fact my closest friend is currently someone with these traits: I initially approached her because I thought she was assertive and masculine acting yet feminine, but I backed off from getting enmeshed with her because of the way I've seen her act. Yet her tactless honesty and being unintimidated (unlike most women) by my social anxiety/awkwardness allowed me to lose my fears and trust her. Being platonic gives me enough social distance to avoid the wrath she's displayed toward people who have wronged her.

On the other hand, I think the only way I can really "get it" is by making the mistake that most normal people make: dating the wrong people and learning what the most appropriate kind of person for me is.

I've only had one relationship at age 30, so it'll take a few years of dating women who aren't looking for children, to figure out what I want. I'll be hanging out around college campuses and seeing who I can pick up.