CPTSD versus Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD)

[Hazy111]

Wife#2 I feel your pain. I come from a familiar family. 

I had i believe a UBPD mother and a UNPD father and a UBPD sister. I believe i after much soul searching, reading over many years and recent  personal crisis that i have a form of UNPD. I have suffered serious depression over the years, ( ithink where my narcissistic supply runs low)

My therapist says its not NPD with me, but developmental narcissism. I dont get bogged down with the definitions. As ive seen it said before. An insightful self aware narcissist is still a narcissist . He isnt cured . I agree.

The difference between myself and the rest of my family is i have some degree of insight, i am not in denial and have some small degree of empathy .

As you know,  Peter Walker says  one of the 4fs of C-PTSD is "fight" or a narcissistic defense to trauma in childhood. ie A personality disordered response to trauma. 

But this form of trauma and abuse  doesnt seem to be discussed on this forum, as these people are unaware of their pain and dont believe they need help. This is my family. But their pain and  rage is palpable, especially my Mother and my Sister. My Sister admits she is (always has been) deeply sarcastic, she has a jokey sign on her kitchen wall extolling it!

What is sarcasm.....its rage/anger....where does this come from??....her childhood trauma (C-PTSD).....but she point blank refuses to go there....as long as shes receiving enough narcissistic supply she can get through life (emotionally crippled )......like her mother before her.

She has told me harrowing stories of abuse by my mother when she was a child, but she told me in a totally detached unemotional way, she said she deserved it!!!!!

My father of 91, doesnt accept that there is anything wrong with his personality , his wifes , daughters. He cant understand my pain. He has no empathy. He gets severely defensive about any criticism. But i know he also had a deeply traumatic childhood.

They are stuck as a frightened small child and when criticized or perceived as criticism, abandoned or perceived abandonment, rejection etc,  ( ie they are being triggered) they lash out, cry as to play the victim, manipulate, abuse , verbal , physical , etc . Or in proper psychological terms they "Act Out" their pain and frustration like a two year old having a tantrum and everyone around them knows it.

Not wishing to repeat myself but i think you were different, if that is the correct word (apologies i do not wish to trigger any pain) in that you did not develop a  "fight defense" or PD to your trauma . You have insight, empathy.

This site as i have said before i think attracts most  people who "Act IN" , they are very sensitive and emphatic. They suffer the other 3fs of trauma. They have compassion, insight  and dont  abuse others.

But they, all the 4fs,  all come from the same root as Peter Walker says C-PTSD.

I would like to start a thread for those suffering a narcissistic fight type reaction to C-PTSD . Would it get any supporting compassionate comments? We suffer terribly too.

One fundamental and important distinction is that PD's are personality disorders whereas CPTSD is a stress disorder

Personality disordered people do suffer from enormous stress. I think the difference is bogus.

[Blueberry]

Hazy, I agree with lots of what you write and find your points interesting. I saw your other post, and didn't answer there because I've never been diagnosed with narc anything, not that I know of anyway. But I do know that about 20 years ago, before anybody'd thought of C-PTSD for me, my depression was labelled aggressive-depressive. I'm much less verbally aggressive towards other people than I used to be. In fact, I've been told that I'm compassionate, loving and caring towards people in my life. I don't have a FOC, just lots of good friends, and pets.
I never acted out physically, but verbally yes, like everybody else in FOO. My depression is no longer labelled aggressive-depressive.

Maybe I'll write more tomorrow. It's very late where I am and I have to get up early and go to T.

[Wife#2]

Hazy, your points hit home deeply. I do suffer what some term 'fleas' in that I CAN act just like my uBPD/Narc? mother. When I do, my husband has to point it out to me. I HATE, HATE, HATE every time he does that, but I have to recognize that I CAN do as I learned sometimes. He knows one of my biggest dreads in life is to end up like my mother. I already look just like her and have developed the same sets of medical concerns she has. So, years ago, I gave him permission to call me out. I might fight him about whether the action/words were really like Mom. But, he doesn't mind too bad. He knows I'll go stew on it for a while, apologize when I realize he's right and do all I can to correct it.

And, I actually went to Out Of The Fog for the first time looking to learn about possible uBPD in ME - which scared me half to death, reading all the literature that the path to mental health is successful for so few. I even called a former therapist and point blank asked him if he thought I was maybe BPD or other PD. He checked his notes and told me that, no, in his professional opinion I was not PD of any flavor. Still, I'm aware of the fleas and that I get a new batch every time I'm around my birth family.

This leads me to the idea that instead of actually BEING NPD, maybe you have a bad case of NPD fleas? I say this because it seems to me that what separates those of us damaged by PD families and those who will go on to reproduce damage in their own families with PD is self-awareness and a willingness to accept that it is US who might need to change. To me, that means those of us who see some PD traits in ourselves see it as a cancer of personality and will do all we can to rid ourselves of it. Which also means, in my opinion only, that we don't HAVE a PD, we have habits learned from the PD parents who raised us, or 'fleas'.

[Kizzie]

Hazy, here's my take FWIW. I read Walker's book  a bit more differently; that is, he talks about the four responses in terms of degree - from healthy through to personality disordered.  Thus, a little bit of narcissism (or fawning, fleeing and freezing) in a person is normal. It's when it gets to be habitual and severe that it becomes a problem. If you picture a continuum from healthy to PD'd, CPTSD is somewhere in the middle.

      l_____________________________l_____________________________l
Healthy                           Stress Disorder                  Personality Disorder

Those with NPD don't suffer terribly any more, that's the whole purpose of the disorder, to shield a very small and traumatized ego or self  from any more pain.  However, they cause a lot of pain for those around them although they can't or won't see that.   

Those of us with CPTSD have not yet turned that corner (as I see it and I believe this is what Walker is suggesting).  We use the defenses in an unhealthy way compared to those who don't have CPTSD, but not to the extent that those with a PD do.  It's a matter of degree. 

[Blueberry]

Thank you for your explanation, Kizzie. That sounds like a good and sensible way of seeing it.

[Candid]

Thus, a little bit of narcissism (or fawning, fleeing and freezing) in a person is normal.

One of my many therapists told me I needed a big dose of healthy narcissism. What does that mean?

Those of us with CPTSD have not yet turned that corner (as I see it and I believe this is what Walker is suggesting).  We use the defenses in an unhealthy way compared to those who don't have CPTSD, but not to the extent that those with a PD do.  It's a matter of degree.

That might answer my question, I guess. 

[Kizzie]

I guess an example of healthy Narcissism would be standing up to our Inner Critic, learning to say (and believe) positive things about ourselves in the face of a whole lot of negativity. E.g.,  "No, I am NOT a bad person, I am actually very kind and caring." 

[Hazy111]

Some interesting comments. Im glad it stimulated a response.

Its triggered some thinking in me. Denial. If there is denial there can be no insight.  Fully fledged PDs seem to lack this.

Could this be  brain chemistry damage from her early childhood stress? The amygdala is damaged. Where the fight or flight response is activated?? Do we all have damaged amygdalas??

As Christine Lawson also points out in her book, they (BPDs) literally cant remember the abuse they deal out, their memories are wiped out during heightened severe stress. She says BPD is like PTSD . This reminds me of my mother, she always used to say i was making things up about her, it never happened.

I think its also important to remember that BPD mothers can be loving and compassionate , its just when they are triggered for whatever reason (their C-PTSD kicks in) thats when the pain and abuse can erupt

For the record i have never been diagnosed as NPD, but i definitely have narc traits. My T says i am definitely not NPD.

Kizzie , i like your definition of NPD, as they dont suffer anymore,, therefore im definitely not!!! Hmmmm

I still believe NPD/BPD PD people still suffer, its just they ACT Out. But why then, do they only  ACT Out with those nearest and dearest to them..that would indicate they can control their emotions to a certain extent,,, do they bottle it up with say work colleagues and then vent at home , like wife beaters do with their wives.... its all so confusing???!!

to be continued......

[Candid]

I guess an example of healthy Narcissism would be standing up to our Inner Critic, learning to say (and believe) positive things about ourselves in the face of a whole lot of negativity. E.g.,  "No, I am NOT a bad person, I am actually very kind and caring."

[Wife#2]

Thank you Kizzie, your post with the graphic really helps me 'get it'.

[Kizzie]

It is confusing Hazy.  The way I see it, at some level my NPDM knew what a "good" mother was supposed to act like so she acted that way, but what she didn't know how to do is actually be authentically maternal.  Her PD kept her from knowing she was not maternal, she literally seemed to believe she was.  When some part of her slipped up and the angry, traumatized part(s) of her leaked out, she would blame others.  And she didn't have any ability to self-reflect because to do so might crack the protective shield or so I believe. 

It's why those with NPD hold fast in the face of all evidence to the contrary of what they have said or done (like He Who Shall Remain Nameless in the US does).  They must believe they are special, entitled, always right, etc., to protect what remains of a very fragile ego.  And that includes sacrificing us and anyone who will not feed their N needs or threaten the facade.

It's a really difficult truth but I found it allowed me to step back a bit and see that my FOO's personalities are disordered, that it was nothing I had done or not done that caused them to traumatize me. And it helped me to let go of the hope that they would change some day because I was hanging onto that, hoping they would love me as I deserve, but imo they are simply not able to (rather than they choose not to). 

[Hazy111]

Yes Kizzie im thinking about it all over again and what we forget , is that the PD has a "false self" as my T says , it  knows how to act as an adult, parent , employee, etc but its not authentic, its false , an act. Love is conditional.

There is massive denial at all times (and therefore no insight, self reflection) as you say their fragile ( i dont think they have an ego) psyche of sorts can easily be disturbed by evidence to the contrary. It could trigger breakdown.

[Candid]

at some level my NPDM knew what a "good" mother was supposed to act like so she acted that way, but what she didn't know how to do is actually be authentically maternal.

You must be my sister, Kizzie!

It's a really difficult truth but [...] it helped me to let go of the hope that they would change some day because I was hanging onto that, hoping they would love me as I deserve, but imo they are simply not able to (rather than they choose not to).

I will mull on this. Thank you.

[Hazy111]

Hi everyone, more thoughts

I think also with PD the C-PTSD starts earlier in life and lasts longer an d more severe throughout childhood when the personality is developing

[shoshannah]

What a great thread with great responses...spreading my love to all of you:

My oldest sister has BPD (I suspect as a result of nature and nurture)  and I have been to counseling and *begged* my counselor to tell me whether or not I have it too and she almost laughed and said "You do not have BPD." She even told me that I am very empathic and I would actually make a great counselor.

"Are you joking?" I thought... It's so weird. On the inside I am so sure that there is something severely wrong with me and everyone can tell. I self harm sometimes, I am afraid of people sometimes to the point where I have to lock myself the nearest bathroom and have a panic attack, I have depression and anxiety, I have dissociated during sex, I have a history of being with abusive boyfriends....but she told me that I seem like a very strong, warm, and likable person.

Its really weird..I was even runner up for prom queen in high school. People seem to not notice anything wrong with me at all...I have had people single me out and tell me how great of a person I am. What other people see in my DOES NOT MATCH what I see.

I haven't been officially diagnosed with C-PTSD but I STRONGLY identify with all the symptoms. I think because I grew up with a sister who has BPD who emotionally abused me for so long, my C-PTSD comes from the fact that I am on the abusive end of my sister's BPD.

So, I really don't see how someone could make BPD and C-PTSD same diagnosis. I hope this doesn't offend anyone, but I think BPD individuals are more likely to be abusive, while C-PTSD individuals are not.

We are very sensitive, very insecure, very down on ourselves, very confused about how to get on in this world. We are afraid, lonely, isolated, and we feel misunderstood. Our depression and anxiety might make us unreliable or neglectful sometimes in our relationships, and we might shy away from people a lot,

but we are not overtly abusive like BPD individuals have the tendency to be.

Does anyone else agree? I am a Psychology major in my undergrad, so obviously I am not credible, just speaking from observation.

Thanks for reading

xo